Universalism is a dangerous doctrine

[One 2 question]

the Bible tells us Hell (Lake of Fire and Brimstone) is forever. Not hard to understand.

Forever. They will be tormented day and night forever = 'aion' = age. This 'aion' we are in atm has been over 2000 years for the purpose of developing and preparing a bride for His Son. The following age will be 1000 years for His Son to establish His kingdom with His Bride. Following that God hasn't revealed to me how long that age will be, nor the one after that and beyond. They are never ending aion after aion, age after age. Each one according to the Creator's purposes, what He wants to achieve from each of them. This is incredible!

I know for certain that in one of those ages every created being in the lake of fire will be reconciled to their Creator.

 

[One 2 question]

Interestingly, brimstone is a refining agent. Why would a refining agent be used in the LOF?

Yes, purified, reformed, transformed. Then having been redeemed, they will be justified, sanctified and glorified. Then ready for further new roles and to fulfil new purposes predetermined by the incredible Sovereign Creator.

Personally I'm loving meditating on Him and His plans for His creations.

 

[Muna]

And right here is brimstone spoken of also

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Salt is considered a purifying agent

Gen 19:6 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

 

[ProverbsInPink]

In the Old Testament there is no Hell. There's Sheol.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice / and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Hosea 13:14 Will I deliver them from the power of Sheol? No, I will not! Will I redeem them from death? No, I will not! O Death, bring on your plagues! O Sheol, bring on your destruction! My eyes will not show any compassion!

If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire how is there anyone in Hades afterward?

 

[Muna]

In the Old Testament there is no Hell. There's Sheol.

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

John 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice / and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Hosea 13:14 Will I deliver them from the power of Sheol? No, I will not! Will I redeem them from death? No, I will not! O Death, bring on your plagues! O Sheol, bring on your destruction! My eyes will not show any compassion!

If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire how is there anyone in Hades afterward?

All the dead are delivered out of these first

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.

Then death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.

Some call this the death of death

And then here

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Correct on the typo on verse #

 

[ProverbsInPink]

All the dead are delivered out of these first

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.

Then death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.

Some call this the death of death

And then here

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Correct on the typo on verse #

But death is cast into the lake of fire too. Which means ?

 

[Muna]

But death is cast into the lake of fire too. Which means ?

Like no more death and you get thrown into the lake of fire at that point you mean?

 

[NotTheRock]

If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire how is there anyone in Hades afterward?

Infernalists believe that the lost are tortured in the Lake of Fire FOREVER!

 

[ProverbsInPink]

Like no more death and you get thrown into the lake of fire at that point you mean?

How do we reconcile that with Ecclesiastes 12:7, And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it?

 

[Muna]

How do we reconcile that with Ecclesiastes 12:7, And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it?

Here man became a living soul (nephesh)

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh)

Just like in the NT

In the NT soul is called (psyche)

Soul (psyche)

1. breath
   1. the breath of life
      1. the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
         1. of animals
         2. of men
   2. life
   3. that in which there is life
      1. a living being, a living soul

1 Thes 5:33 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit (pnuema) and soul (psyche) and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Shows His Spirit in us and our spirit

Romans 8:12 The Spirit (pnuema) itself beareth witness with our spirit (pnuema), that we are the children of God

Not all people have the Holy Spirit, but you can still have your own spirit (soul and body)

Genesis 2:7 God breathes into man, showing that breath

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Jesus delivers that second breath here

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Spirit is Ruwach in the OT and Pnuema in the NT, man became a living soul by one breath in Genesis, and Jesus breathed on living souls in the gospel and they received another breathe (the Holy Spirit) and that Spirit bears witness with our own spirit we are the children of God.

You can live as an athiest (walking around in the body) without the Holy Spirit, but still have a soul and spirit in your body (the spirit that animates the soul in the body) but if you die that would return to the God who gave it is how I look at it.

Thats sort of a simplistic look at it (as far as I am seeing it).

 

[ProverbsInPink]

Here man became a living soul (nephesh)

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh)

Just like in the NT

In the NT soul is called (psyche)

Soul (psyche)

1. breath
   1. the breath of life
      1. the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
         1. of animals
         2. of men
   2. life
   3. that in which there is life
      1. a living being, a living soul

1 Thes 5:33 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit (pnuema) and soul (psyche) and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Shows His Spirit in us and our spirit

Romans 8:12 The Spirit (pnuema) itself beareth witness with our spirit (pnuema), that we are the children of God

Not all people have the Holy Spirit, but you can still have your own spirit (soul and body)

Genesis 2:7 God breathes into man, showing that breath

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Jesus delivers that second breath here

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Spirit is Ruwach in the OT and Pnuema in the NT, man became a living soul by one breath in Genesis, and Jesus breathed on living souls in the gospel and they received another breathe (the Holy Spirit) and that Spirit bears witness with our own spirit we are the children of God.

You can live as an athiest (walking around in the body) without the Holy Spirit, but still have a soul and spirit in your body (the spirit that animates the soul in the body) but if you die that would return to the God who gave it is how I look at it.

Thats sort of a simplistic look at it (as far as I am seeing it).

So then after death there is nothing to burn in Hell.
The breath of God ,the soul and spirit,animated the flesh. And those return to God at death. The body and its nervous system returns to dust.

Psalm 146:4When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.


Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

 

[Muna]

So then after death there is nothing to burn in Hell.
The breath of God ,the soul and spirit,animated the flesh. And those return to God at death. The body and its nervous system returns to dust.

Maybe not as we might understand it according to the flesh (which is temporal) unlike the eternal, where there is torment.

 

[Bladerunner]

Forever. They will be tormented day and night forever = 'aion' = age. This 'aion' we are in atm has been over 2000 years for the purpose of developing and preparing a bride for His Son. The following age will be 1000 years for His Son to establish His kingdom with His Bride. Following that God hasn't revealed to me how long that age will be, nor the one after that and beyond. They are never ending aion after aion, age after age. Each one according to the Creator's purposes, what He wants to achieve from each of them. This is incredible!

I know for certain that in one of those ages every created being in the lake of fire will be reconciled to their Creator.

If you say so:

 

[Bladerunner]

Interestingly, brimstone is a refining agent. Why would a refining agent be used in the LOF?

good question to ask God at the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[NotTheRock]

good question to ask God at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Your theology is all wrong.

 

[Muna]

Infernalists believe that the lost

I broke up your sentence to show you word for word what is written

Look how its worded, for example here, its not "lost", but "not found" right?

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you see a difference? I don't, so maybe we agree ?

are tortured

​

It's written as tormented, but the word torture is synonymous for torment
(as is shown in Rev 9:5 and Rev 20:10 for example)

So I think we would agree its the same word regardless, wouldn't we?

in the Lake of Fire FOREVER!

As far as being tormented (or tortured as you prefer to call it) there are periods of time shown to us, such as five months (more specifically) in Rev 9:5

For example five months is shown here...

Rev 9:5 ...but that they should be tormented five months

Then there is the torment in regards to "the lake of fire" for a time called for ever and ever here...

Rev 20:10... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Which time do you understand applies to the lake of fire?

Now on another note, seeing that it says,

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

While at the same time informing us that

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I wouldn't advise changing the wording there, so when you said, (emphasis mine in red)

Infernalists believe that the lost (or not found) are tortured (tormented) in the Lake of Fire FOREVER!

Which do you disagree with in the above?

I had to look up the word infernalist though, just so I understand you more perfectly (I did not know what that was)

And it says,

An "infernalist" refers to someone who believes in the reality of hell and eternal punishment for sins, a view prominent in various religious traditions, particularly within Christian theology.

Usually people say eternal hell but in the above definition it states the reality of hell and eternal punishment whereas here we see

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.

Which some believe to be the death of death (as they speak of it)

After that, it says also

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It appears we have death and hell and the lake of fire, and death and hell get cast into the lake of fire, and any not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire (along with anyone taking away any words from that book).

 

[NotTheRock]

@Truly

Forever Hell is not true. One has to reject a mountain of scripture to believe in it.

Torment as used by the New Testament writers (basanizo) is also a refining term.

It's also interesting that the "Lake of Fire" only appears in Revelation and nowhere else in the Bible.

Basanizo
bas-an-id'-zo
Verb
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed
of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

 

[Muna]

@Truly

Forever Hell is not true. One has to reject a mountain of scripture to believe in it.

Can you please quote me

Or no, you could not do that?

Did you not see the scripture I posted?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.

Torment as used by the New Testament writers (basanizo) is also a refining term.

It's also interesting that the "Lake of Fire" only appears in Revelation and nowhere else in the Bible.

Basanizo
bas-an-id'-zo
Verb
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed
of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

You believe those not found in the book of life will be refined with torture in the lake of fire?

Because it says it a place prepared for the devil and his angels

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

But then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire

And so those as well, one enters into everlasting fire or everlasting punishment and the others into everlasting life

What is there a time difference between everlasting life and everlasting punishment?

Edit:fixed sentence

 

[Bladerunner]

Your theology is all wrong.

Oh, there is Not going to be a judgement day according to you???

 

[NotTheRock]

Can you please quote me

Or no, you could not do that?

Did you not see the scripture I posted?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.



You believe those not found in the book of life will be refined with torture in the lake of fire?

Because it says it a place prepared for the devil and his angels

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

But then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire

And so those as well, one enters into everlasting fire or everlasting punishment and the others into everlasting life

What is there a time difference between everlasting life and everlasting punishment?

Edit:fixed sentence

My bad. I now realize that your understanding is complete and infallible. I'll be quiet going forward and learn everything about God from you.