Universalism: Where Do People Get The Idea

[Giuliano]

I have an answer to this, but @ReChoired is more scripturally literate than I so will be able to offer a more comprehensive answer. Suffice to say that your take on the matter is not unique, but does hold some flaws. I would suggest that being a priest and reigning as Kings with Christ has a different meaning than simply ruling, and is more in harmony with judging, as per 1 Corinthians 6:3. There is much to be added to this for our time in heaven over that 1000 years is not spent simply having a good time. The will be a work to do in conjunction with the Lord, that by the end of the millennium all questions will be answered... Why did he/she miss out... What is he doing here... How come she made it?.... Why did You do this?... What happened that caused such in such to be allowed to do so much damage... Etc etc. This will be a high Court case in which all evidence will be submitted and men, such as you and I, will be given full access to scrutinise every detail. By the end, God's sentence upon the wicked will be totally vindicated and justice will not just be done, but seen to be done... There will be no further debate or doubts in the entire universe regarding God's character and the methods He used in dealing with the sin problem and Lucifer's rebellion. That word judge with relation to angels has a connecting sense to ruling as a king and priest.. Judging therefore in a spiritual paradigm and taking along with us our experience as eye witnesses to the drama.

Why must that thousand years be spent in Heaven by the saints?

What I see is that God can judge some people before the Thousand Years begins. They know the truth and chose wisely. There is no need to postpone their judgment. The rest are not judged until after the Thousand Years.

Judging? I think the saint never judges to condemn. The saint looks at a person and the situation he's in in order to present him with solutions for his problems. Thus saints do not quarrel with each other or need to go to court with each other. They can talk to each other and come up with solutions. I see the saints reigning as kings as exercising that kind of judgment. I tend to take this parable a bit more "literally" than some others may:

Luke 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

 

[brakelite]

What I see is that God can judge some people before the Thousand Years begins. They know the truth and chose wisely. There is no need to postpone their judgment. The rest are not judged until after the Thousand Years.

There is an adventist position based on prophecy and sanctuary type/antitype that holds to the belief that there is a judgement taking place now in heaven of all those who in history have declared faith in Christ. When He comes the angels are told to gather the elect from all corners of the earth... Unless a judgement had already been made, how are the angels to know the difference between the wheat and the tares?
It isn't so much that the wicked are being judged during the 1000 years... Wicked angels certainly... But because the decision had already been made prior to the second coming who the bride is, any judgement subsequent to that is really to vindicate God's decisions before the universe. Like I said... Justice must be seen to be done. The OT is saturated with the concept that God requires irrefutable evidence and eye witnesses, even coming down from heaven Himself to see if what has been reported to Him is true. If you study the judgement scenario carefully as Adventists present it, you will discover a harmony and a clear l overall picture that is free of contradiction and scriptural damage. But it's a big study and took me years to come to grips with it. @ReChoired will be able better than I to present the biblical evidence of you are interested in the full picture.

 

[Giuliano]

There is an adventist position based on prophecy and sanctuary type/antitype that holds to the belief that there is a judgement taking place now in heaven of all those who in history have declared faith in Christ. When He comes the angels are told to gather the elect from all corners of the earth... Unless a judgement had already been made, how are the angels to know the difference between the wheat and the tares?
It isn't so much that the wicked are being judged during the 1000 years... Wicked angels certainly... But because the decision had already been made prior to the second coming who the bride is, any judgement subsequent to that is really to vindicate God's decisions before the universe. Like I said... Justice must be seen to be done. The OT is saturated with the concept that God requires irrefutable evidence and eye witnesses, even coming down from heaven Himself to see if what has been reported to Him is true. If you study the judgement scenario carefully as Adventists present it, you will discover a harmony and a clear l overall picture that is free of contradiction and scriptural damage. But it's a big study and took me years to come to grips with it. @ReChoired will be able better than I to present the biblical evidence of you are interested in the full picture.

I take the Jewish standard of human's using the death penalty as showing us something about God's Judgment seriously. There must be eyewitnesses; and there must also be no mitigating circumstances. Mental instability, ignorance, emotional stress would all count as mitigating circumstances. Jewish courts often wouldn't sentence someone to death because they thought he wasn't old enough to know what he was doing.

Yes, God is always watching; and preliminary judgments being made constantly. I think the angels can tell the tares from the wheat. They noticed and mentioned it -- and were told to wait until later to sort them out. I also think some tares can be converted to wheat.

After the death of the physical body, there is also a preliminary judgment. That judgment is not be final in some cases. One reason for that is the results of our deeds are not all in yet. The deeds may be done with, but there are still repercussions. The harm done by an action can go on for generations as can the good.

I would not call those I believe are being educated in the Thousand Years wicked. I see them as those who have not yet made an informed choice. The saints act as both priests and kings for them.

As for vindicating God and proving Him right? I don't see God as needing to prove anything. In the end, however, when people truly understand God, they will see that He is what they hoped for all their lives.

 

[brakelite]

I take the Jewish standard of human's using the death penalty as showing us something about God's Judgment seriously. There must be eyewitnesses; and there must also be no mitigating circumstances. Mental instability, ignorance, emotional stress would all count as mitigating circumstances. Jewish courts often wouldn't sentence someone to death because they thought he wasn't old enough to know what he was doing.

Yes, God is always watching; and preliminary judgments being made constantly. I think the angels can tell the tares from the wheat. They noticed and mentioned it -- and were told to wait until later to sort them out. I also think some tares can be converted to wheat.

After the death of the physical body, there is also a preliminary judgment. That judgment is not be final in some cases. One reason for that is the results of our deeds are not all in yet. The deeds may be done with, but there are still repercussions. The harm done by an action can go on for generations as can the good.

I would not call those I believe are being educated in the Thousand Years wicked. I see them as those who have not yet made an informed choice. The saints act as both priests and kings for them.

As for vindicating God and proving Him right? I don't see God as needing to prove anything. In the end, however, when people truly understand God, they will see that He is what they hoped for all their lives.

This may help understand...

 

[ReChoired]

There is an adventist position based on prophecy and sanctuary type/antitype that holds to the belief that there is a judgement taking place now in heaven of all those who in history have declared faith in Christ. When He comes the angels are told to gather the elect from all corners of the earth... Unless a judgement had already been made, how are the angels to know the difference between the wheat and the tares?
It isn't so much that the wicked are being judged during the 1000 years... Wicked angels certainly... But because the decision had already been made prior to the second coming who the bride is, any judgement subsequent to that is really to vindicate God's decisions before the universe. Like I said... Justice must be seen to be done. The OT is saturated with the concept that God requires irrefutable evidence and eye witnesses, even coming down from heaven Himself to see if what has been reported to Him is true. If you study the judgement scenario carefully as Adventists present it, you will discover a harmony and a clear l overall picture that is free of contradiction and scriptural damage. But it's a big study and took me years to come to grips with it. @ReChoired will be able better than I to present the biblical evidence of you are interested in the full picture.

Yeah, I find it is explained quite neatly here:

Hide & Seek (Investigative Judgment Throughout Scripture In Type) (Powerpoint)

This was already posted in this section, and would like it discussed there, if any differ: Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out.

 

[Giuliano]

This may help understand...

I don't feel like spending nearly an hour on a video. I didn't feel like it when I started; and then when it started with chit-chat, I lost patience. Sorry.

 

[jshiii]

Why do some people think that everyone goes to Heaven in the end?

After giving your question some thought....

As a believer in Jesus Christ I can and do assume every human on this planet believes in Jesus Christ and, his saving grace (John 3:16), will enter the Kingdom Of Heaven. This is absolutely all I can do. I don't know everyone's heart. For example, even a pedophile, that gets beat up and murdered in prison (consequences of sin) could be welcomed in the Kingdom Of Heaven. I don't know if "the pedophile" genuinely repented before his sin lead to a violent death in prison? Only God, Jesus Christ, knows his heart. Because every time I, in my mind, judge a murderer, pedophile or even Hitler, the same judgment I cast comes back and hits me square in the face. No sin is greater than any other sin. So where does this leave me, as a Christian and the idea of "Universalism?" I only judge and hate sin, using scripture, not the person. Only God, Jesus Christ, knows the Heart of a human here on Earth. I will leave it to him to judge whether someone truly believes in him and whether the same will enter the Kingdom Of Heaven. There will be those who do not enter the gates of Heaven (atheist, satanist, unbelievers), but I will have to leave God's (Jesus) perfect justice to decide.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

After giving your question some thought....

As a believer in Jesus Christ I can and do assume every human on this planet believes in Jesus Christ and, his saving grace (John 3:16), will enter the Kingdom Of Heaven. This is absolutely all I can do. I don't know everyone's heart. For example, even a pedophile, that gets beat up and murdered in prison (consequences of sin) could be welcomed in the Kingdom Of Heaven. I don't know if "the pedophile" genuinely repented before his sin lead to a violent death in prison? Only God, Jesus Christ, knows his heart. Because every time I, in my mind, judge a murderer, pedophile or even Hitler, the same judgment I cast comes back and hits me square in the face. No sin is greater than any other sin. So where does this leave me, as a Christian and the idea of "Universalism?" I only judge and hate sin, using scripture, not the person. Only God, Jesus Christ, knows the Heart of a human here on Earth. I will leave it to him to judge whether someone truly believes in him and whether the same will enter the Kingdom Of Heaven. There will be those who do not enter the gates of Heaven (atheist, satanist, unbelievers), but I will have to leave God's (Jesus) perfect justice to decide.

No ! All Sin is not the same at all, will full Sin ? and others are clean different.
No ! Hitler and so forth planed the murder of millions for their intentions clearly.
Anyone who is a Pedophile is not in the Kingdom of God, such a one can not enter for a start, just like rapist homosexuals and anyone who wilfully takes advantage of others. they are not in the Kingdom of God.
Remember God Kicked Adam and Eve out of his Kingdom. so you have to be truly born again to enter into the Kingdom of God, or you don't go to Heaven, others will go to Purgatory who do not deserve Hell.
Jesus came for the OT Saints and got them out of Purgatory one could say.

If one had punched you in the face and another just only abused you verbally for being a goose, now choose what one you would chose over the other ? one is greater than the other ? now what does the Bible say about one who stands against the Holy Spirit ? well there you go, such a thing is much more than anything.

 

[jshiii]

If one had punched you in the face and another just only abused you verbally for being a goose, now choose what one you would chose over the other ? one is greater than the other ? now what does the Bible say about one who stands against the Holy Spirit ? well there you go, such a thing is much more than anything.

Sins here on Earth, in the flesh, carry different punishments. Some send you to jail, like murder, and others may grant a stern look from your mother for telling that lie. The point is, while we are on Earth, in our flesh, we will suffer the consequences and yes as I just pointed out in my example, sins carry a different gravity of punishment while in the flesh here on earth.

Now let's leave our flesh as soul/spirit and let me ask you this question. I'm speaking about after we depart our earthly bodies. Which sin is greater in the eyes of our Lord on judgment day? 1. A man (who never accepted Christ as his Savior while in the flesh) who lived a life of dealing drugs and caused the death of many through their addictions to drugs OR 2. Sweet little Aunt Mary down the street, who liked gambling, but never caused physical harm to another human being, but she refused to accept Christ as her Savior. Which sin is greater in God's eyes on judgment day? 1. The drug dealer or 2. Sweet little Aunt Mary? Exactly, their SIN is Equal, get's them the same punishment.....they both will be cast in the Lake Of Fire and apart from the Love of Jesus forever. (granted, some may fair much worse, than others, in Hell)


To sum up what I just said. Sin's, great or small, believers or unbelievers, here on Earth have different consequences of punishment here on Earth. After we leave our Earthly bodies as soul/spirit, the Sin of Unbelief in Jesus Christ, of unbelievers, has but only 1 punishment that are equal to all (doesn't matter their earthly sin).....Eternal separation from the Love of Jesus....Lake Of Fire.

The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Satan Loves Distractions!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Sins here on Earth, in the flesh, carry different punishments. Some send you to jail, like murder, and others may grant a stern look from your mother for telling that lie. The point is, while we are on Earth, in our flesh, we will suffer the consequences and yes as I just pointed out in my example, sins carry a different gravity of punishment while in the flesh here on earth.

Now let's leave our flesh as soul/spirit and let me ask you this question. I'm speaking about after we depart our earthly bodies. Which sin is greater in the eyes of our Lord on judgment day? 1. A man (who never accepted Christ as his Savior while in the flesh) who lived a life of dealing drugs and caused the death of many through their addictions to drugs OR 2. Sweet little Aunt Mary down the street, who liked gambling, but never caused physical harm to another human being, but she refused to accept Christ as her Savior. Which sin is greater in God's eyes on judgment day? 1. The drug dealer or 2. Sweet little Aunt Mary? Exactly, their SIN is Equal, get's them the same punishment.....they both will be cast in the Lake Of Fire and apart from the Love of Jesus forever. (granted, some may fair much worse, than others, in Hell)


To sum up what I just said. Sin's, great or small, believers or unbelievers, here on Earth have different consequences of punishment here on Earth. After we leave our Earthly bodies as soul/spirit, the Sin of Unbelief in Jesus Christ, of unbelievers, has but only 1 punishment that are equal to all (doesn't matter their earthly sin).....Eternal separation from the Love of Jesus....Lake Of Fire.

The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Satan Loves Distractions!

One pays for all your sins, before one gets into Heaven, I thought to the least cent this was the case. so don't be lead into sin, because the wagers of sin is death.

Our sins can effect the generations to come and that is a curse on them. one reaps what one sows, just look at the Churches nowadays promoting Sodomites etc etc. they are a curse ! because they have followed in this world, fearing Man and not fearing God.

Believing in Jesus as the Christ is one thing, but even the Devil him self also believes. so you must be more than believing.

As to the sweet person or one claiming to be prissy, well in the eyes of man and as to in the eyes of God their is a difference.
One may say look at me I am better than X Y and Z but that may be only mans values ? priss maybe letting something slide that God hates ? oh never stood up for anything for one, just gone along with the flow and trends of this world. made themselves a pillar of the community, well just look priss is held in high esteem in the world today, a great promoter of Homosexuals and all the rest that is hailed as glorified to the extreme nowadays, like abortions on demand are glorified as totally righteous as one can be nowadays in the eyes of the trend setters and Governments now. but if I were to challenge them on the new age trend I would be seen as the monster, but oh gee I am just saying what has been the standard for over 2000 years. or have we reached the age of enlightenment now ! with Political Correctness as our god. oh what a guide to behold , it's the same bastard god that the Nazis and Communist were lead astray with, you must this and that or else, it's called mans works religion. and that's the difference in fact.

 

[jshiii]

One pays for all your sins, before one gets into Heaven, I thought to the least cent this was the case. so don't be lead into sin, because the wagers of sin is death.

Our sins can effect the generations to come and that is a curse on them. one reaps what one sows, just look at the Churches nowadays promoting Sodomites etc etc. they are a curse ! because they have followed in this world, fearing Man and not fearing God.

Believing in Jesus as the Christ is one thing, but even the Devil him self also believes. so you must be more than believing.

As to the sweet person or one claiming to be prissy, well in the eyes of man and as to in the eyes of God their is a difference.
One may say look at me I am better than X Y and Z but that may be only mans values ? priss maybe letting something slide that God hates ? oh never stood up for anything for one, just gone along with the flow and trends of this world. made themselves a pillar of the community, well just look priss is held in high esteem in the world today, a great promoter of Homosexuals and all the rest that is hailed as glorified to the extreme nowadays, like abortions on demand are glorified as totally righteous as one can be nowadays in the eyes of the trend setters and Governments now. but if I were to challenge them on the new age trend I would be seen as the monster, but oh gee I am just saying what has been the standard for over 2000 years. or have we reached the age of enlightenment now ! with Political Correctness as our god. oh what a guide to behold , it's the same bastard god that the Nazis and Communist were lead astray with, you must this and that or else, it's called mans works religion. and that's the difference in fact.

Wow, No offense Reggie, but some on this board had said I was not the best communicator. I strive to make crystal clear what I communicate lol. It is difficult sometimes on forums, better in person, face to face. BUT I COULD NOT EVEN MAKE IT PAST YOUR FIRST SENTENCE without my jaw dropping. lol. Scratching my head, sorry.

#IHaveNoIdeaWhatPrissIs
#GladToKnowImNotTheWorstCommunicatorOnTheseBoards


The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Satan Loves Distractions!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Wow, No offense Reggie, but some on this board had said I was not the best communicator. I strive to make crystal clear what I communicate lol. It is difficult sometimes on forums, better in person, face to face. BUT I COULD NOT EVEN MAKE IT PAST YOUR FIRST SENTENCE without my jaw dropping. lol. Scratching my head, sorry.

#IHaveNoIdeaWhatPrissIs
#GladToKnowImNotTheWorstCommunicatorOnTheseBoards


The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Satan Loves Distractions!

That may be due to your blindness, but do try to be more precise in what it is that you are talking about.

Sure Face to face can help a lot.

But ask as to he subject of why you scratch your head, bring up a subject as to a point you wonder on.

Do you believe that on a persons death that the Spirit goes directly to Heaven ?

Or are you supporting the modern day Church on Abortion on demand and homosexual Political Correctness trumping God.

Communism and Nazi-ism could never of got off the ground in the first place, if it was not for their Political Correctness being Idolised and that's a fact ! sadly the Church's does not warn people of this anymore. sadly most people see PCness as a comfort teddy bear and this Ted knows best in a Utopia.