Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures

[Spiritual Israelite]

The foundation of the Premillennialism doctrine is based on some of the most highly debatable scriptures in the entire Bible and not on any clear, straightforward scriptures.

It seems that the two main pillars of Premillennialism are Revelation 20 and Zechariah 14. Any honest person will acknowledge that those are difficult passages to interpret.

Premills assume that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. I believe that they manipulate the rest of the book and the rest of prophetic scripture to fit that assumption. I shouldn't have to convince anyone that the book of Revelation is not all chronological from beginning to end. Revelation 11 and 12 is the most obvious example where it is not written in chronological order. So, to make that assumption about Revelation 19 and 20 is not wise.

Not all Premills interpret Zechariah 14 the same way, but almost all of them use Zechariah 14 as one of their main support passages.

Interpreting Zechariah 14 as relating to a future thousand year earthly kingdom and interpreting it all literally, as many Premills do, creates contradictions with other scripture. These Premills believe in animal sacrifices being reinstated and taking place at a temple which currently does not even exist. This belief blatantly contradicts Hebrews 8-10 which teaches that Christ's once for all sacrifices made animal sacrifices obsolete forever. Animal sacrifices served the purpose of foreshadowing Christ's sacrifice (Hebrews 10:1) and that's it. These Premills typically also use Ezekiel 40-48 to support their view and some of them try to say the animal sacrifices would be done for the purpose of a memorial of Christ's sacrifice even though there is nothing written anywhere in scripture to support that theory. In Ezekiel 45:15-17 it very clearly talks about the animal sacrifices as being done as sin offerings for the atonement and reconciliation of sins. There is no longer any need for any animal sacrifices for that purpose because of Christ's sacrifice, so that can't possibly occur in the future.

Another problem with interpreting Zechariah 14 as relating to a future thousand year earthly millennial kingdom is that this means you believe that people will be required to go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord in the future despite Jesus saying long ago that people no longer had to go to worship God in Jerusalem, but instead were required to worship Him in spirit and in truth wherever they are (John 4:19-24). It makes no sense that God would no longer require that, but then require it again in the future. It makes just as little sense as thinking that animal sacrifices will be reinstated.

Some Premills try to say that the new heavens and new earth are ushered in at the beginning of the thousand years. That is a completely unsupportable position. When the new heavens and new earth are ushered in it will be a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13) and where there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain (Revelation 21:4, Isaiah 65:19). And there will be no more death when the new heavens and earth are ushered in (Revelation 21:4). Some try to say there will be death in the new heavens and new earth because of what is written in Isaiah 65:20, but that contradicts what is written in Isaiah 65:19 and in Revelation 21:1-5. In Isaiah 65:19 it talks about no more weeping or crying at that point (just like Revelation 21:4), so to interpret Isaiah 65:20 as saying there would be death at that point would mean no one would cry after they experience extreme pain and no one would cry when a loved one dies and so on, which is obviously completely unreasonable.

So, Premillennialism is based on scriptures like I mentioned above that are highly debatable and are difficult to interpret. Premills often interpret those scriptures in such a way that contradicts other scriptures.

But, the question is, where are the clear, straightforward scriptures that support Premill? It seems that they are nowhere to be found. It makes for a very shaky doctrine when there are no clear scriptures to support it. It's based instead on assumptions, speculation and contradictions.

In the next post I will show how Amillennialism, unlike Premillennialism, is based on clear, straightforward scriptures.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20 talks about the reign of Christ. Scripture explicitly teaches that Christ began to reign after His resurrection.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Revelation 20:6 says that those who reign with Christ are "priests of God and of Christ". Scripture teaches that Christ's followers are priests right now.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Scripture teaches that all believers will have their bodies changed to be immortal while inheriting eternal life in the kingdom of God when Christ returns at the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:50-54, Matthew 25:31-46). And it teaches that all unbelievers will be destroyed when He returns which would not allow for any mortals to populate the earth at that point, as the following scriptures indicate.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men....10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Scripture also teaches that the saved and lost will be resurrected at generally the same time or hour and then judged.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Scripture teaches that all people will be judged at the same time and not that there will be multiple judgments as Premills believe.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Matthew 13:40 As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

All of these clear, straightforward scriptures I have referenced support Amillennialism. Some Premills try to accuse Amills of over-spiritualizing scripture, but, as I've shown, the foundation of Amillennialism is clear, straightforward scriptures which are used to help interpret more difficult passages. Premillennialism has no such clear, straightforward scriptures to support it.

 

[WPM]

The foundation of the Premillennialism doctrine is based on some of the most highly debatable scriptures in the entire Bible and not on any clear, straightforward scriptures.

It seems that the two main pillars of Premillennialism are Revelation 20 and Zechariah 14. Any honest person will acknowledge that those are difficult passages to interpret.

Premills assume that what is described in Revelation 20 follows what is described in Revelation 19 chronologically. I believe that they manipulate the rest of the book and the rest of prophetic scripture to fit that assumption. I shouldn't have to convince anyone that the book of Revelation is not all chronological from beginning to end. Revelation 11 and 12 is the most obvious example where it is not written in chronological order. So, to make that assumption about Revelation 19 and 20 is not wise.

Not all Premills interpret Zechariah 14 the same way, but almost all of them use Zechariah 14 as one of their main support passages.

Interpreting Zechariah 14 as relating to a future thousand year earthly kingdom and interpreting it all literally, as many Premills do, creates contradictions with other scripture. These Premills believe in animal sacrifices being reinstated and taking place at a temple which currently does not even exist. This belief blatantly contradicts Hebrews 8-10 which teaches that Christ's once for all sacrifices made animal sacrifices obsolete forever. Animal sacrifices served the purpose of foreshadowing Christ's sacrifice (Hebrews 10:1) and that's it. These Premills typically also use Ezekiel 40-48 to support their view and some of them try to say the animal sacrifices would be done for the purpose of a memorial of Christ's sacrifice even though there is nothing written anywhere in scripture to support that theory. In Ezekiel 45:15-17 it very clearly talks about the animal sacrifices as being done as sin offerings for the atonement and reconciliation of sins. There is no longer any need for any animal sacrifices for that purpose because of Christ's sacrifice, so that can't possibly occur in the future.

Another problem with interpreting Zechariah 14 as relating to a future thousand year earthly millennial kingdom is that this means you believe that people will be required to go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord in the future despite Jesus saying long ago that people no longer had to go to worship God in Jerusalem, but instead were required to worship Him in spirit and in truth wherever they are (John 4:19-24). It makes no sense that God would no longer require that, but then require it again in the future. It makes just as little sense as thinking that animal sacrifices will be reinstated.

Some Premills try to say that the new heavens and new earth are ushered in at the beginning of the thousand years. That is a completely unsupportable position. When the new heavens and new earth are ushered in it will be a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:13) and where there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain (Revelation 21:4, Isaiah 65:19). And there will be no more death when the new heavens and earth are ushered in (Revelation 21:4). Some try to say there will be death in the new heavens and new earth because of what is written in Isaiah 65:20, but that contradicts what is written in Isaiah 65:19 and in Revelation 21:1-5. In Isaiah 65:19 it talks about no more weeping or crying at that point (just like Revelation 21:4), so to interpret Isaiah 65:20 as saying there would be death at that point would mean no one would cry after experience extreme pain and no one would cry when a loved one dies and so on, which is obviously completely unreasonable.

So, Premillennialism is based on scriptures like I mentioned above that are highly debatable and are difficult to interpret. Premills often interpret those scriptures in such a way that contradicts other scriptures.

But, the question is, where are the clear, straightforward scriptures that support Premill? It seems that they are nowhere to be found. It makes for a very shaky doctrine when there are no clear scriptures to support it. It's based instead on assumptions, speculation and contradictions.

In the next post I will show how Amillennialism, unlike Premillennialism, is based on clear, straightforward scriptures.

Well put! The truth speaks for itself!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Premil response:

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Spiritual Israelite,

But, the question is, where are the clear, straightforward scriptures that support Premill? It seems that they are nowhere to be found. It makes for a very shaky doctrine when there are no clear scriptures to support it. It's based instead on assumptions, speculation and contradictions.

Perhaps you forgot the following and many other prophecies:
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Daniel 2:35–44 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Taken]

Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures…​

Yet another post on mans invented psychobabble terms. Yawn.

*Scripture IS “Knowledge”.
*All Scripture IS “True.”
*Scripture CAN and DOES Reveal “Complete Opposites”.

*An Individual mans “Heartful Belief”, Determines…/ Establishes…
WHAT “Scripture Applies TO THAT Individual”.

THAT ^, IS Established… “according TO Scripture… by, through, of the Individuals…
“IF… THEN” knowledge Revealed.

“IF”… a man BELIEVES “THIS”…THEN”…what Applies to THAT individual Is “THEN” Revealed.
“IF” … a man DOES “THIS”…”THEN”…what Applies to THAT individual is “THEN” Revealed.

God Himself… set the “IF / THEN” Principle.

The Umpteen “OP’s” pretending mankind is “subject to manKinds Psychobabble Terms, to establish A mans Relationship With the Lord God Almighty…”
…IS old, boring, laughable on its face.

An individual mans Relationship WITH the Lord God Almighty … is encompassed in the mans multiple Options…/ Choices.
* zero relationship with God.
* sporadic, sometimes WITH God, sometimes WITHOUT God.
* permanent, WITH God Forever.

IF / WHEN a man Chooses His Offered Option…
“THEN”, DOES the “Revealed consequence Apply TO THAT individual” ( regardless of IF / WHAT other individuals CHOOSE)!

Your CHOICES and Consequences thereof… Applies to You, WITHOUT regard to some psychobabble Terms of mens invention, that YOU like to repetitively debate “AS IF”, those manmade Terms; are weighed and considered BY God.

God has Offered manKind…a WAY, His Way, His Order… For an Earthly mans WHOLE Life…
* Bodily Life
* Soul Life
* Spirit Life
To become MADE Wholly, Holy, Whole and WITH the Lord God Forever…
Expressly… according to The Lord God Almighty’s Way and Order.

Your option IS to Accept (or Not) His Offering…AS IS every other Individuals option.

No one IS obligated to Believe, Trust, Accept, Do as “you choose to do.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Greetings Spiritual Israelite,

Perhaps you forgot the following and many other prophecies:
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Daniel 2:35–44 (KJV): 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Kind regards
Trevor

Perhaps you forgot to address either of my original posts? It looks like you have no answer for anything I said in those posts? Do you just ignore all the scriptures I referenced? You think cherry picking scripture instead of forming your doctrine on all of scripture is acceptable? It is not. So, tell me how you reconcile your doctrine with the scriptures I referenced instead of ignoring them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Unlike Amillennialism, Premillennialism is based on assumptions and speculation rather than on any clear, straightforward scriptures…​

Yet another post on mans invented psychobabble terms. Yawn.

*Scripture IS “Knowledge”.
*All Scripture IS “True.”
*Scripture CAN and DOES Reveal “Complete Opposites”.

*An Individual mans “Heartful Belief”, Determines…/ Establishes…
WHAT “Scripture Applies TO THAT Individual”.

THAT ^, IS Established… “according TO Scripture… by, through, of the Individuals…
“IF… THEN” knowledge Revealed.

“IF”… a man BELIEVES “THIS”…THEN”…what Applies to THAT individual Is “THEN” Revealed.
“IF” … a man DOES “THIS”…”THEN”…what Applies to THAT individual is “THEN” Revealed.

God Himself… set the “IF / THEN” Principle.

The Umpteen “OP’s” pretending mankind is “subject to manKinds Psychobabble Terms, to establish A mans Relationship With the Lord God Almighty…”
…IS old, boring, laughable on its face.

An individual mans Relationship WITH the Lord God Almighty … is encompassed in the mans multiple Options…/ Choices.
* zero relationship with God.
* sporadic, sometimes WITH God, sometimes WITHOUT God.
* permanent, WITH God Forever.

IF / WHEN a man Chooses His Offered Option…
“THEN”, DOES the “Revealed consequence Apply TO THAT individual” ( regardless of IF / WHAT other individuals CHOOSE)!

Your CHOICES and Consequences thereof… Applies to You, WITHOUT regard to some psychobabble Terms of mens invention, that YOU like to repetitively debate “AS IF”, those manmade Terms; are weighed and considered BY God.

God has Offered manKind…a WAY, His Way, His Order… For an Earthly mans WHOLE Life…
* Bodily Life
* Soul Life
* Spirit Life
To become MADE Wholly, Holy, Whole and WITH the Lord God Forever…
Expressly… according to The Lord God Almighty’s Way and Order.

Your option IS to Accept (or Not) His Offering…AS IS every other Individuals option.

No one IS obligated to Believe, Trust, Accept, Do as “you choose to do.”

Talk about pyschobabble. The fact that you did not even attempt to specifically address anything I said in my original posts says it all. You just believe what you want to believe. You can't reconcile your beliefs with the scriptures I referenced in the original posts and you know it or else you would have done so by addressing them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Premil response:

View attachment 64847

Like I said (see above). We now have 2 Premils who have responded and neither of them addressed one single point that I made in the original posts. That says it all.

 

[marks]

Like I said (see above). We now have 2 Premils who have responded and neither of them addressed one single point that I made in the original posts. That says it all.

It's all been addressed before.

I think the reason you call passages "debateable" is because you don't accept their plain meanings. If you did, things would be different.

Talk about pyschobabble. The fact that you did not even attempt to specifically address anything I said in my original posts says it all. You just believe what you want to believe. You can't reconcile your beliefs with the scriptures I referenced in the original posts and you know it or else you would have done so by addressing them.

And who wants to get replies like this above? Do you think this makes for an appealing discussion? Not to me. Denigrating others is not good form.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's all been addressed before.

No, it hasn't. Nice excuse you came up with here to not bother addressing anything in the original posts. How about just picking one thing and addressing it?

I think the reason you call passages "debateable" is because you don't accept their plain meanings. If you did, things would be different.

LOL. Yes, passages contained within books that undeniably contain a good amount of symbolism are always considered to be clear and straightforward, right? We should form our foundation of our doctrine from highly symbolic books and not from more clear, straightforward scripture? Is that what you're telling me?

And who wants to get replies like this above? Do you think this makes for an appealing discussion? Not to me. Denigrating others is not good form.

You will defend anyone who shares your pre-trib view. You have made that clear. Why would you not say anything about how Taken was talking to me? He is the one who mentioned physchobabble while then responding with nothing but that while not addressing anything I said specifically. Premils are completely unable to refute Amil arguments. That is proven over and over again. Instead of just addressing our points, you try to make everything personal to divert attention away from the fact that your Premil doctrine is based only on assumptions, speculation and taking scripture out of context. As I showed in this thread, Amil is based on very clear, straightforward scriptures that Premils are completely unable to reconcile with their doctrine. It's very noticeable that no Premil is even attempting to do so.

 

[marks]

No, it hasn't. Nice excuse you came up with here to not bother addressing anything in the original posts. How about just picking one thing and addressing it?

The foundation of the Premillennialism doctrine is based on some of the most highly debatable scriptures in the entire Bible and not on any clear, straightforward scriptures.

Revelation 20:2-10 KJV
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What part of this passage do you find unclear? It's a narrative prophecy just like all the other narrative prophecies in the Bible.

I find that this is written in plain language that describes a coherent succession of events, that align with other parts of the Bible.

Please tell me specifically what part of this passage you find unclear?

Much love!

 

[marks]

And who wants to get replies like this above? Do you think this makes for an appealing discussion? Not to me. Denigrating others is not good form.

You will defend anyone who shares your pre-trib view.

Deflection into a personal comment, that happens to be irrelevant, and not even true. Not good discussion.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20:2-10 KJV
2) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What part of this passage do you find unclear? It's a narrative prophecy just like all the other narrative prophecies in the Bible.

Personally, I don't think any of it is unclear at this point, but we're talking about the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture here.

If you think this is so clear then tell me exactly who or what the beast is, what the mark of the beast is and what the image of the beast is. And tell me how those who are alive and remain until the coming of Christ can avoid the second death without having part in the first resurrection, as you understand it? Are you able to reconcile your understanding of it with the scriptures I posted in my second post in this thread? If this text is so clear, then you should be able to clearly show how you can reconcile your understanding of it with all of the passages I referenced in that post. Can you do that with at least a couple of them?

I find that this is written in plain language that describes a coherent succession of events, that align with other parts of the Bible.

How does it align with any of the passages I referenced in the second post?

Please tell me specifically what part of this passage you find unclear?

None. But, again, if you think it's so clear, then prove it. Show me how you can support your interpretation of it with other scripture, including the scriptures I posted in my second post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Deflection into a personal comment, that happens to be irrelevant, and not even true. Not good discussion.

How about you just address what I said in the original posts? That would make for good discussion. That was the purpose of creating this thread. So far, not one Premil has even attempted to do so. You could be the first! You would get major kudos from me if you explained to me how you can reconcile your doctrine with any of the passages I referenced in the second post. I'd give you a lot of credit if you at least tried to do so.

 

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Personally, I don't think any of it is unclear at this point, but we're talking about the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture here.

If it's not unclear, why don't you believe it?

And let's stay on this point for a bit, before moving to other topics.

Revelation 20:4 KJV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This verse tells us that those who were beheaded for their witness of Christ, having not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had received the mark, lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.

Isn't this a plain and straightfoward statement? I find it so.

Just like so many other prophecies in Scripture.

I'm happy to discuss other topics also, but first we need to deal with this one. What needs to be answered, in my thinking, is what parts of this passage you don't think mean exactly what they say. Like the verse I quoted above.

Those who didn't receive the mark, or worshiped the beast or his image, having been beheaded, live again and reign with Jesus. Very clear.

And if in fact it is so clearly stated, what remains is for us to believe it, and find the harmony with the rest of Scripture. I think you don't see the harmony because of your particular view, and just declare without foundation that the passage doesn't mean what it so clearly says.

I look at passages that make these kind of direct and clear statement, and use them to understand those that do not make such direct and clear statements regarding the particular topic.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If it's not unclear, why don't you believe it?

I do believe it and, unlike you, I interpret it in such a way that agrees with the rest of scripture.

And let's stay on this point for a bit, before moving to other topics.

LOL! You won't even address the topic of the thread and you're telling me this? LOL!

Revelation 20:4 KJV
4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This verse tells us that those who were beheaded for their witness of Christ, having not worshiped the beast or his image, nor had received the mark, lived and reigned with Christ for 1000 years.

Isn't this a plain and straightfoward statement? I find it so.

So, just tell me how you reconcile it with the rest of scripture then. Do you think you should interpret that passage without keeping other scripture in mind while making sure you don't contradict any other scripture? You want me to address this when you won't even address a single scripture passage that I referenced. Why is that? Why are you trying to make the rules in the thread that I created?

Just like so many other prophecies in Scripture.

Like the ones I referenced in the second post, for example. None of which you seem willing to address.

I'm happy to discuss other topics also, but first we need to deal with this one.

Oh, really? We have to go by your rules? You won't even first address one single passage that I referenced first?

What needs to be answered, in my thinking, is what parts of this passage you don't think mean exactly what they say. Like the verse I quoted above.

You need to answer why you interpret the passage in such a way that contradicts all the passages I referenced in the second post. You can't just cherry pick which scriptures you accept while ignoring the rest. How do you reconcile your interpretation of Revelation 20 with the rest of scripture?

Those who didn't receive the mark, or worshiped the beast or his image, having been beheaded, live again and reign with Jesus. Very clear.

And if in fact it is so clearly stated, what remains is for us to believe it, and find the harmony with the rest of Scripture.

There it is. I'm glad you admit that the foundation of your doctrine is on Revelation 20 and you interpret the rest of scripture in light of your understanding of Revelation 20 instead of interpreting it in light of the rest of scripture which is not all written within a highly symbolic book like Revelation.

. I think you don't see the harmony because of your particular view, and just declare without foundation that the passage doesn't mean what it so clearly says.

If it so clearly says what you think it does, then you should be able to clearly show how to reconcile it with the clear passages I referenced in the second post of this thread. Do you think you don't have to be able to reconcile your interpretation of Revelation 20 with the rest of scripture? If you do think you need to do that, then how about actually doing that then?

I look at passages that make these kind of direct and clear statement, and use them to understand those that do not make such direct and clear statements regarding the particular topic.

Would you agree that the passages I referenced in the second post are direct and clear statements? If so, you should have no trouble showing how you interpret them. But, it looks like you're trying to avoid doing that even though that's what this thread is about.

 

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Personally, I don't think any of it is unclear at this point, but we're talking about the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture here.

What parts of this passage are symbolic, and how do you know? And the parts that are symbols, what do they mean, and how do you know? I look for Scriptural authority.

Here's a simple example:

Revelation 12:3 KJV
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Wonder is from semeion, which is a sign. So we're told this.

And we are told what it means:

Revelation 12:9 KJV
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

We can be certain that the dragon in the heavens is symbolic of Satan. We are told this in Scripture, so we have the Bible's authority on this.

What can you point to in Revelation 20 that is symbol according to the Bible? And what does that symbol mean, again, according to the Bible?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What parts of this passage are symbolic, and how do you know? And the parts that are symbols, what do they mean, and how do you know? I look for Scriptural authority.

Here's a simple example:

Revelation 12:3 KJV
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Wonder is from semeion, which is a sign. So we're told this.

And we are told what it means:

Revelation 12:9 KJV
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

We can be certain that the dragon in the heavens is symbolic of Satan. We are told this in Scripture, so we have the Bible's authority on this.

What can you point to in Revelation 20 that is symbol according to the Bible? And what does that symbol mean, again, according to the Bible?

I'm not going to address anything more of what you say until you actually address at least one thing I posted in the second post. You think you can just come here and ignore the original posts and try to act as if I have to address your points while you ignore mine. Think again.

 

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at least one thing I posted in the second post.

No, it hasn't. Nice excuse you came up with here to not bother addressing anything in the original posts. How about just picking one thing and addressing it?

Moving the goal posts.

What parts of this passage are symbolic, and how do you know? And the parts that are symbols, what do they mean, and how do you know? I look for Scriptural authority.

Unless you first determine conclusively that the Bible shows this as symbolic, and that the Bible shows the meanings of those symbols, there is no Scriptural authority, only opinions.

I point to clearly stated narrative prophecy and I believe it as written, not as symbolic, and that has Biblical authority. You declare it's symbolic, show me the evidence of that. Otherwise I'm going to keep urging you to accept what it says.

You asked me to address one thing in your beginning posts, I chose the very first statement you made. Let's start at the beginning! :-)

Now you say you won't address anything unless I move on from this point. Why should we move on when it hasn't been settled?

Much love!