Unscrambling : The Elect

[quietthinker]

Lots of confusion about the elect and the predestined elect, and on and on... Its just such a bag of twisted wires lost in space somewhere.

The reason it sounds like a Rubik's cube is because of the way the scriptures are worded.....it just twists the idea, totally.

Its really simple tho... but it sounds complex because of the terminology.. But its not complex.

So, When trying to understand what it means to be "elect" or those who are "predestined" to be "conformed into the image of Christ.... is just a few questions needing to be addressed.

How does "elect" happen?....What is the START, what is the part that gets the ball rolling, and what is the end result?

-----------------

So let me give you a simple analogy. Let say you are at the Fair. And you want to ride the Roller Coster. So, you have a Ticket. And what does that ticket get you? What is the end result of that Ticket. = You get to RIDE.

So, lets insert this simple idea into. 'predestined elect".........

The RIDE, is what you are predestined to do, or to become.

The Elect is the person who is going to ride....what is predetermined to be a RIDE.

The Ticket is your FAITH that elects you to RIDE.
---------------

So, lets look at it.

You are ELECTED by FAITH.

So what is the process ?

We are predestined,..this means that there is an end result that is to be finished in the FUTURE.....that occurs through Salvation... which is...to be fully conformed into the image of Christ, ....that God foreknew would happen, because He knew before all are born who would by faith be elected by their faith.. To be fully conformed into the image of Christ is what the "predestination" DOES.

How does that all sound if you simplify it? It means that there is an end result to being born again.....And the end result has a name...."predestined".... And what is that as an end result? We, the born again are conformed into the image of Christ. We the ELECT, elected by FAITH. are Predetermined by God to reach a final conforming that starts by the FATH that elects us to be conformed.

God does not elect...>He forgives. Faith Elects. God does not predestine you to be forgiven, but he.... according to foreknowledge, knows before we are born, who will be saved .

Salvation is a forgiveness and conforming GIFT. It exists as a 2000 yr old LIVING Redemption that begins and completes its purpose after the Blood Atonement is applied as a Gift = "Grace through Faith"... and this is how it ITSELF predestines you to be completed as fully conformed into the Image of Christ.

Faith ELECTS you to be conformed into the image of Christ, as that is what Salvation is predestined to do for everyone who is elected by FAITH.

Faith allows you to have access to the blood atonement that sets in motion what is pre-destined to occur to all who are born again, which is the conforming of us into the image of Christ.

Salvation sets into motion for each born again person.... something that is "predestined" to occur once you are born again.....and that is , to be conformed into the Image of Christ. And God foreknew this will happen to all who are born again, as its only the born again who are conformed.

Where the confusion comes in is when a bad theology teaches that.: God Knowing a thing before it happens is the same as God causing it to happen., which is to teach that "foreknowing, is = to cause".

God does not cause you to be elected, Yet He absolutely knows ALL who will be Elected by FAITH, before you are born.

I'd fundamentally go along with this.... its pretty basic.
'Men' have a way of straining at gnats and swallowing camels but that can only be if with their own wisdom they try to unpack God's mysteries.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Lots of confusion about the elect and the predestined elect, and on and on... Its just such a bag of twisted wires lost in space somewhere.

The reason it sounds like a Rubik's cube is because of the way the scriptures are worded.....it just twists the idea, totally.

Its really simple tho... but it sounds complex because of the terminology.. But its not complex.

So, When trying to understand what it means to be "elect" or those who are "predestined" to be "conformed into the image of Christ.... is just a few questions needing to be addressed.

How does "elect" happen?....What is the START, what is the part that gets the ball rolling, and what is the end result?

-----------------

So let me give you a simple analogy. Let say you are at the Fair. And you want to ride the Roller Coster. So, you have a Ticket. And what does that ticket get you? What is the end result of that Ticket. = You get to RIDE.

So, lets insert this simple idea into. 'predestined elect".........

The RIDE, is what you are predestined to do, or to become.

The Elect is the person who is going to ride....what is predetermined to be a RIDE.

The Ticket is your FAITH that elects you to RIDE.
---------------

So, lets look at it.

You are ELECTED by FAITH.

So what is the process ?

We are predestined,..this means that there is an end result that is to be finished in the FUTURE.....that occurs through Salvation... which is...to be fully conformed into the image of Christ, ....that God foreknew would happen, because He knew before all are born who would by faith be elected by their faith.. To be fully conformed into the image of Christ is what the "predestination" DOES.

How does that all sound if you simplify it? It means that there is an end result to being born again.....And the end result has a name...."predestined".... And what is that as an end result? We, the born again are conformed into the image of Christ. We the ELECT, elected by FAITH. are Predetermined by God to reach a final conforming that starts by the FATH that elects us to be conformed.

God does not elect...>He forgives. Faith Elects. God does not predestine you to be forgiven, but he.... according to foreknowledge, knows before we are born, who will be saved .

Salvation is a forgiveness and conforming GIFT. It exists as a 2000 yr old LIVING Redemption that begins and completes its purpose after the Blood Atonement is applied as a Gift = "Grace through Faith"... and this is how it ITSELF predestines you to be completed as fully conformed into the Image of Christ.

Faith ELECTS you to be conformed into the image of Christ, as that is what Salvation is predestined to do for everyone who is elected by FAITH.

Faith allows you to have access to the blood atonement that sets in motion what is pre-destined to occur to all who are born again, which is the conforming of us into the image of Christ.

Salvation sets into motion for each born again person.... something that is "predestined" to occur once you are born again.....and that is , to be conformed into the Image of Christ. And God foreknew this will happen to all who are born again, as its only the born again who are conformed.

Where the confusion comes in is when a bad theology teaches that.: God Knowing a thing before it happens is the same as God causing it to happen., which is to teach that "foreknowing, is = to cause".

God does not cause you to be elected, Yet He absolutely knows ALL who will be Elected by FAITH, before you are born.

This is a complete denial of the biblical teaching. It is clear you have not studied the words, or the teaching yet.

 

[LC627]

John 3:20 For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins.

Romans 3:10,11 As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

Those that are the sheep of Christ are brought to Christ by the Father. Our salvation is all of grace which none of us deserve. The fact is faith does not naturally rest in us as spiritually dead humans with a nature saturated in sin. Are there things we may wrestle with in the Bible, or different theology? Of course, but one for sure, death has passed to us all and on our own we cannot nor ever will have what we need to raise our self from spiritual death to faith on our own.

 

[FollowHim]

God Calls.
Faith elects.
Faith Elects
God' saves.
If you give God your faith in Christ, He then will give you "the gift of Righteousness".. "The Gift of Salvation".
If you have those, then you are elected.
Welcome to being born again.

Definitions. We love definitions to clarify something, to check we know what is going on.

The word is preached. Some hear and the seed is planted. It grows, it embeds in their hearts, it changes them and a plant grows, the word of God which creates new seeds, which are preached, that creates new plants in the hearts of men etc.

How exactly it all works does not matter, it works. Some will say they choose to respond to the word, but another way of saying it the seed fell in good soil and took root, the soil was just good, so the seed could germinate and grow. Certainly if we close off from the word, it has no chance to take root, to grow and have an effect in someones life.

Some claim they have the word of God in their lives, except no word of God comes from their mouth, no word of God comes from their actions, no word of God changes their hearts.

The elect are those whose hearts are full of the word of God. It is not difficult to see them or know them.
Some claim that the plant can die, but still these folk are saved. Except they are just lost in the world, without hope or foundation and nothing to harvest, chaff blowing in the wind.

God bless you

 

[Malihah]

Malihah.....They were born again.
Born Again, Apostles
Are you born again?
If so, you're the elect.
Just like me. Just like all the born again on this Forum.

Election and Predestination have nothing to do with understanding Calvinism - zero, zilch, nada. Most of the early Christians were ignorant peasants with zero book knowledge. God chooses the weak and foolish things of the world to confound the wise. Notice that it is God who chooses, we don't choose God even though outwardly many may appear to do so. Here's something about Election that most non-elect will never figure out. Election has much more to do with who your mother and father are than your ability to understand Calvinism. The bloodlines from the old testament didn't die out in the new testament age, God still keeps track of them with the precision of divinity.

 

[Malihah]

I would agree with most of this post. Your last line starts with levitation, however. Unless you were still talking about the gifts of Satan, I would classify that as more of a demonic gift. Teleportation through the Spirit, yes. Levitation, no.

Welcome to the Forum, btw!

Thank you.

- Jesus had the gift of Levitation when he walked on water and flew into the heavens
- Jesus, the apostles and many others had the gift of Healing
- Samson and the mighty men of David had the gift of Strength
- The apostles and many others had the gift of tongues or speaking in Languages
- Many prophets, Jesus, Peter and Paul had the gift of Resurrection
- Philip had the gift of Teleportation

 

[DPMartin]

If Free Will Exists, then the topic suddenly ends.

Now lets look at your pretext....>"elect are then called, but few are chosen"..
Compare it to this..... "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous""

Notice how Romans 5 says.....Many were made......yet, its speaking of ALL.

So, when we read many are called, this means, that the entire world is given the opportunity to receive Christ.
But, few, as compared to the entire offer, will come to the Cross. And once they do, then they are "chosen= God accepts their Faith.
Faith Elects = God Saves.
Salvation is "Grace thru faith".
"for as many as Received Christ..."the few", God gave them...the power to becomes the Sons of God". = The born again.
The born again, are the "few" that are Faith Chosen, and the unbelievers are the many that are called who do not respond to the Cross.

here's another thing you might look at when God calls something He called the firmament Heaven He called the dry land earth He called the waters seas He called the Light day He called the darkness Night.

note all these are places for living things, who is in the Light who is in the darkness Heaven is a place for, and earth is a place of and so are the seas. He also called the man Adam hence God's place in the earth. let me quote Luke 3:38 "Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God."
now you can remove the italicized words, but you still get "of God".　

also He called Abram Abraham, Jacob Israel and so on, God has an expectation of something, should He call it.
if those in the world don't respond to the gospel according to what is acceptable to Him, their not chosen, there not the lost that Jesus describes in the good Shepard parable.

we see called or calling in the American view of being called to service, but the Hebrew view of God's calling seems different, though one could still apply service to it.

the response that is acceptable to the Father can be argued that its on you, but as Paul says one must receive the love of the Truth:

2Th_2:10　 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

[Behold]

You are obviously "Word of Faith" and that is true...Positionally true...but how we walk and how we live must be at the same measure as our position in Christ.

Some people believe as you have mention above, claiming what is true "in Christ"...yet to their families and when they are alone with their computers they are very different people indeed.

Our life and out position in Christ must balance together...we can't have one without the other. Grace comes with accountability.

Assigning innuendo in my direction related to obscene carnal believers who hang out on forums, and have no real personal lifestyle that reflects a deep devotion to Christ and the word, falls flat in my direction.
Believe me.

I'm not Word of Faith. Im not pentecostal, im not Catholic, or "predestined elect" nonsense.... im not related to any type of false gospel or heretical theology that tries to pretend that we as believers have any part in the Blood Atonement.
Im not a "self savor". Im not going to try to teach you that unless you "endure to the end", you'll die separated from God.
You will not find me teaching Legalism.
What i teach, that has helped many many many believers is how to live in a place of perfected discipleship.
I teach how you can actually live a Christian life that isn't a Christian Failure of "repenting and sinning, sinning and repenting"."confessing and falling"
See, that isn't Christianity. That is a carnal substitution for Real discipleship that 95% of Christians think is ..>"well, im a saved sinner, so, i'll fall some, repent some, confess some".....
Thats a Christian failure.
I teach how you can live here... : "For sin shall not have dominion over you".
And here.."If we walk in the Spirit we shall not SIN".. "shall not commit works of the flesh".

 

[Behold]

Greetings, Behold, and if I didn't do so before, welcome to the Forum. Great to have you!

I actually agree with Malihah on this. The Greek word for "elect" is εκλεκτός, which is used in Acts 9:15 of the apostle Paul. The apostles were among those specifically chosen by God for greater works, and bore greater responsibilities before the Lord.

(Acts 9:8-16)

The Apostles had more then "greater responsibilities"...they had "signs of an Apostle"....2 Corinthians 12:12
The epistle of "Acts", is The ACTS of the Apostles. Its not the acts of the Christian.
This is something specific, that is not given to someone, simply because they are born again.
We, in the "time of the Gentiles" have a specific apostle" who we are to understand is our "example".
This is why Paul said..>"be followers of Me, as i follow Christ".
There is a reason that Paul was taken aside by Jesus and given what we understand as "church doctrine."
There is a reason that Paul wrote most of the NT.
There is a reason that "Justification by Faith", and what we understand as "The Gospel", came from Paul.

 

[Hidden In Him]

- Jesus had the gift of Levitation when he walked on water and flew into the heavens

Ah... so that is what you were talking about.

Yeah, although I think I would use different terminology myself. Maybe just leave it as Walking on Water. The term levitation is most commonly associated with demons causing possessed people to lift off the ground up into the air in the sight of others. It was also associated in the Early Church Fathers with magicians like Simon Magus levitating into the air by the power of Satan, in order to prove to the Roman senate that he was "the Christ."

But at least I know what you meant now.

 

[Behold]

Thank you.

- Jesus had the gift of Levitation when he walked on water and flew into the heavens
- Jesus, the apostles and many others had the gift of Healing
- Samson and the mighty men of David had the gift of Strength
- The apostles and many others had the gift of tongues or speaking in Languages
- Many prophets, Jesus, Peter and Paul had the gift of Resurrection
- Philip had the gift of Teleportation

Some of this you are sort of making up, but probably its coming from your church, or commentary.
"The gift of resurrection"? really?
"the gift of Transportation?.... really?

Listen, all Giftes, are not OF the person.....they are sent from the Giver..
So, a person is allowed to USE what is given by the Giver. This is why its called a "Gift", Malihah.
Also, Jesus didn't have the Gift of Healing....He in fact is LIFE......."i am the Way , the Truth, and the LIFE".
Jesus is also, "The Resurrection".....so, you might study this out, before you ramble more regarding people having a "gift of resurrection".

 

[Behold]

2Th_2:10　 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

What is the Truth?
Your verse says...>"because they received not the Love of the Truth".

See, you read this to mean......accept something that is true.
But the verse means something different if you see the verse in context.
What is the Truth?
The Truth is JESUS.....He is THE TRUTH. John 14:6
So, look at verse spiritually and not literally and see it.

They (unbelievers) received not .......what?

The LOVE , who IS.....The TRUTH.

Jesus is God. God is Love. Jesus is the TRUTH.......So, Christ is THE LOVE and THE TRUTH, being OFFERED on a CROSS.

If you do not receive this......you have rejected The Love, and The Truth, who is JESUS, Himself.

This is why the verse says they are unrighteous and will perish. As this is the case regarding all CHRIST REJECTORS, who this verse is talking about.

 

[Behold]

I'd fundamentally go along with this.... its pretty basic.
'Men' have a way of straining at gnats and swallowing camels but that can only be if with their own wisdom they try to unpack God's mysteries.

Here is an even more simplified version.

God does not pre-destine us to be SAVED, while others are pre-destined to be Damned.

Let me bring this home to you reader....... Do you have mother, do you have a child, children? What if God pre-determined that you get to go to Heaven, while He pre-destined your mother and your children to burn in the lake of fire, and there is nothing they can do about it. They CAN'T BE SAVED because GOD WON'T LET THEM.
So, do you see the "crazy" in this Hyper-Calvinism Theology?

Listen, anyone with an IQ, or a recognition that the Same God who came here to die as... "For God so loved the WORLD< that HE GAVE".. understands that God as Christ on a Cross dying for the "sin of the world", is not a God, who later.... saves some and burns others.
THINK !!
You have to THINK !

The reality is... all this "pre-destined" stuff resists Spiritual LOGIC< when we understand that "GOD IS LOVE"....and its certainly in direct opposition to the reality of Free Will...... as well as denying a plethora of NT Verses that all say..>"as MANY as will come"..." ALL that call on ME shall be saved"...

See, this is the thing about deception....its very powerful. And Satan blinds the mind so that reason, logic, discernment, common sense, are GONE, and all that is left is God denying illogical carnal nonsense that deceived people will claim is "truth". And this is true of all theological heresies and the people that rant them.

The ELECT, are Pre-destined, or pre-determined to end up ONLY as conformed into "the image of Christ".
That is what is pre-determined as the final outcome for all who are born again.
No one is "chosen by God to burn", and "others are chosen by God to go to Heaven".
WE, the born again, are ELECTED to become, "the image of Christ, by our FAITH that causes God to give us the New Birth.
Faith Elects.
God Saves.
The Foreknowledge of God, knows, regarding each of us who are born again, .....long before we were, that our end result is to become just like Jesus.
God also knows before you are born, if you are not going to ever Trust in Christ... But He is not choosing it for anyone....>He only knows what each of us will do with Christ.
God's KNOWING is not God CHOOSING......its just God KNOWING before it happens. = "foreknowledge"....or knowledge be-FORE it happens...."Fore-Knowledge".

WE are a SON of GOD , already.....but the final "pre-destined" revealing will be when we are in heaven, and have the new body.
This is pre-determined (pre-destined) to occur to everyone who is born again. That is your pre-destination. You are Elected by your FAITH to have a final determined outcome....>"conformed into the Image of Christ".


...

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Apostles had more then "greater responsibilities"...they had "signs of an Apostle"....2 Corinthians 12:12. The epistle of "Acts", is the Acts of the Apostles. Its not the acts of the Christian. This is something specific, that is not given to someone, simply because they are born again.

This was Malihah's position in Post #4, was it not? You responded by saying "nice mythology," which is what prompted my response.

"the gift of Transportation?.... really?

He's referring to Acts 8:39.

Also, Jesus didn't have the Gift of Healing....

He's referring to 1 Corinthians 12:30.

 

[Malihah]

Some of this you are sort of making up, but probably its coming from your church, or commentary.
"The gift of resurrection"? really?
"the gift of Transportation?.... really?

Listen, all Giftes, are not OF the person.....they are sent from the Giver..
So, a person is allowed to USE what is given by the Giver. This is why its called a "Gift", Malihah.
Also, Jesus didn't have the Gift of Healing....He in fact is LIFE......."i am the Way , the Truth, and the LIFE".
Jesus is also, "The Resurrection".....so, you might study this out, before you ramble more regarding people having a "gift of resurrection".

You totally missed the point of everything I said which is to be expected. A truly 'elect' person can have zero understanding of religion as you know it and they are still an 'elect' person. A non-elect person can have a perfect theological understanding of religion or predestination or even election and it will not transform them into an 'elect' person. The word 'elect' means chosen and there are a thousand reasons why God chooses one and not the other but the fact remains that Christianity is not a self-improvement course. Being born-again means you have real power from God and the real gifts of the Spirit. No gifts means no election.

 

[Timtofly]

na, predestination and "elect" are muddied by those who think they chose, and certainly not by the scriptures.

the elect are called then chosen (many are called few are chosen) then become faithful.

the scriptures show that God choses His elect and that is all. Noah was chosen Abraham was chosen both were called and both were faithful. and we are talking about the Lord God of Noah, and the Lord God of Abraham.

the Grace Noah found is the same to all the sons of Noah, the Faith of the man of Faith Abraham is the same Faith all who were sons of Jacob and the believers in Christ. if you are born again your faith is the same faith that Abraham has in the Lord God of Abraham.

it should be noted that Noah was ten Generations from Adam, and Abraham was ten generations from Noah. these were chosen from the beginning of:

Gen 3:15　 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.　

the beginning of the restoration unto the Lord God what was lost. people like Abel the first man to experience death, and Enoch were included.

the tracking of 14 generations in Mat. and Luke should tell you that the chosen are chosen. and we are talking about the God of these people.

now if you want a god of your own choosing, have at it, but the Lord God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob chooses who He will spend eternity with.

God chose all of Adam's descendants.

 

[Timtofly]

Thank you.

- Jesus had the gift of Levitation when he walked on water and flew into the heavens
- Jesus, the apostles and many others had the gift of Healing
- Samson and the mighty men of David had the gift of Strength
- The apostles and many others had the gift of tongues or speaking in Languages
- Many prophets, Jesus, Peter and Paul had the gift of Resurrection
- Philip had the gift of Teleportation

These are not gifts. These are events. At least you could stick with the list Paul gives.

 

[Malihah]

These are not gifts. These are events. At least you could stick with the list Paul gives.

Not everything is in the bible. Protestants never figure that out which is why they are at the bottom.

 

[Timtofly]

Not everything is in the bible. Protestants never figure that out which is why they are at the bottom.

Sorry, not in Satan's hierarchy. Of course some think they have a body of evidence outside of the Bible. It is all part of Satan's deception. I am not deceived, and do not want any knowledge Satan thinks I need. The gnostics tried to be like Satan, or were from Satan. I do not claim to know. I understand and witness God's plan.

 

[Malihah]

Sorry, not in Satan's hierarchy. Of course some think they have a body of evidence outside of the Bible. It is all part of Satan's deception. I am not deceived, and do not want any knowledge Satan thinks I need. The gnostics tried to be like Satan, or were from Satan. I do not claim to know. I understand and witness God's plan.

You were deceived the moment Luther broke away from the Church and never repented of it. Now, after 500 years you are so hardened in unbelief and false doctrine that the chances of you coming to repentance are almost zero.