Upon THIS Rock I will build my Church

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Stranger

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The Epistle of Clement is an historical document. Just because it’s not Scripture doesn’t mean that it’s not historically factual. It simply means that it is not inspired.

Were you at the Boston Massacre?? How do you know it happened?? It’s NOT Scripture, right??
What an asinine understanding of history you have . . .

Again, the statement of Clements doesn't hide your ignorance of not knowing the difference between James the disciple and James the Lords brother and head of the Jerusalem Church.

Exactly right, Clements is not inspired. So, stick with Scripture.

I understand history, I just don't put it on the level of Scripture.

Stranger
 

epostle

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"...misrepresenting the so called authority that Jesus did not even relinquish to the Holy Spirit"

This is another bible twisting flaming zinger that has no evidence and not one example. "so called authority" implies Peter and the Apostles had no authority. Jesus relinquishing authority to the Holy Spirit is an absurdity. Two falsehoods in one sentence.

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the human heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us;
Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials:

This, in part, is what infallibility means. The anti-Catholic is forced to change the meaning into something stupid.

According to Scott, the Apostles and elders "misrepresented their so called authority that Jesus did not even relinquish to the Holy Spirit" at the Council of Jerusalem, rendering the superintendence of the Holy Spirit meaningless.

Not all Christian doctrines are explicit in Scripture (for example, the dogma of the Blessed Trinity). Non-Catholic Christians should ask themselves why they accept the Church’s teaching on the three persons of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ in one divine person, and the New Testament canon of Scripture (all defined by the Catholic Church), but not other teachings regarding the papacy???
 

epostle

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Again, the statement of Clements doesn't hide your ignorance of not knowing the difference between James the disciple and James the Lords brother and head of the Jerusalem Church.

Exactly right, Clements is not inspired. So, stick with Scripture.

I understand history, I just don't put it on the level of Scripture.

Stranger
The Apostle James Zebedee (brother of the Apostle St. John) Matthew 4:21; 10:2-3; 17:1; 20:20-23; 26:37 Mark 1:19-20; 1:29; 3:17; 5:37; 9:2; 10:35, 41; 13:3; 14:33 Luke 5:10; ; 8:51; 9:28, 54 Acts 1:13; Acts 12:2

The Apostle James son of Alphaeus Matthew 10:3 Mark 3:18 Luke 6:15 Acts 1:13

James the "brother" of Jesus; Jesus' "brothers" in general Matthew 12:46-50; 13:55 Mark 3:21, 6:3 John 7:3-5
Acts 1:14 Galatians 1:19 James 1:1

James whose mother is Mary Matthew 27:56 Mark 15:40, 16:1 Luke 24:10

James, the "brother" of Jesus and Bishop of Jerusalem Acts 12:17; Acts 15:1315:13; 21:18
1 Corinthians 15:5-7 Galatians 1:19; 2:9, 12; James 1:1 Jude 1:1

James, the father of the Apostle Jude Acts 1:13

Keep in mind, however, that more than one category may refer to the same man.
The Men Named James in the New Testament

Stranger, you cherry pick which ever "James" fits your preconceived notions. This explains why discussion with you is impossible:

Day 1
Stranger: "James had no successors"
me: St. Symeon , who was the Bishop of Jerusalem during the rule of Trianon (98-117), succeeded James.
Saint Symeon was succeeded by Justus 1 st (107-111).
Day 2
Stranger: "James had no successors"
me: St. Symeon , who was the Bishop of Jerusalem during the rule of Trianon (98-117), succeeded James.
Saint Symeon was succeeded by Justus 1 st (107-111).
Day 3
Stranger: "James had no successors"
me: St. Symeon , who was the Bishop of Jerusalem during the rule of Trianon (98-117), succeeded James.
Saint Symeon was succeeded by Justus 1 st (107-111).
Next month:
Stranger: "James had no successors"
me: St. Symeon , who was the Bishop of Jerusalem during the rule of Trianon (98-117), succeeded James.
Saint Symeon was succeeded by Justus 1 st (107-111).
next year:
Stranger: "James had no successors"
me: St. Symeon , who was the Bishop of Jerusalem during the rule of Trianon (98-117), succeeded James.
Saint Symeon was succeeded by Justus 1 st (107-111).

The next time you assert "James this or James that" demonstrate which James you are talking about and don't be so quick to label anyone as ignorant.
 

epostle

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Exactly right, Clements is not inspired. So, stick with Scripture.
I understand history, I just don't put it on the level of Scripture.
In other words, you are forced to dispense with history because none of the ECF were Protestant, especially Clement. Scripture contains history, but the Bible is not a history book. It is impossible to draw up early church history based on the Bible alone. The uninspired writings tell us a lot of what the first Christians believed and practiced. Because they are not inspired does not mean they are worthless. The more one divorces themselves from the early Church, the more worthless the ECF become.

John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801-1890), who is widely regarded as one of the most profound religious thinkers of his time, wrote in his Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine (1845), the one indispensable work on this subject:

One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches . . . at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. And Protestantism . . . as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.
Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?


 

BreadOfLife

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No kidding, Eintstein. That is why I referenced Adam and Eve. Which you said you never gave anything regarding Adam and Eve. post (#182). Which once again shows your ignorance.

That you didn't know the difference between the James of (Acts 12) and the James who was head of the Church in Jerusalem is not Red Herring. It is another display of your ignorance of the Scripture. Einstein.

Concerning Abraham, now you are changing your story. Before it was Abraham never claimed or acknowledged that he was the 'father of nations'. But I showed you that he did. Now you revert to Abraham being a 'rock'. Nice dodge, Einstein. But it doesn't work.

And that there was no replacement for James, the disciple, proves there was no apostolic succession.

Now who's the liar, and pathetic, and desperate?

Stranger
First of all, as I already showed you - the 1st century document, The Epistle of Clement assures us that ALL of the apostles saw to it that they had successors. "ALL" includes James.

We don't read about Andrew's successor in Scripture - nor do we read about Bartholomew's or Jude's or Andrew's, etc. We don't depend on Scripture to tell us the entire history of the Church. That's a man-made problem that Protestants have because of their invention of Sola Scriptura.

As for Abraham - He NEVER acknowledged being the "Father of a multitude of nations" - and YOU never showed that. Not sure why you continue to lie about it but, suffice it to say, I've destroyed your position there . . .
Finally, as to Eve - she never acknowledged being "Mother of ALL the living" - yet YOU continue to lie and claim that she did. Please show me the Scriptural proof or simply admit that you've been Scripturally-spanked . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Again, the statement of Clements doesn't hide your ignorance of not knowing the difference between James the disciple and James the Lords brother and head of the Jerusalem Church.

Exactly right, Clements is not inspired. So, stick with Scripture.

I understand history, I just don't put it on the level of Scripture.

Stranger
Scripture doesn't give us the entire history of the Church, Einstein - nor was it EVER meant to.

Besides - nobody is putting historical writings like the 1st Letter of Clement on par with Scripture, so grow up. I realize that being caught in TWO lies regarding Eve and Abraham is pretty embarrassing for you - but get over it already . . .
 

epostle

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WRONG.

First of all, my ignorant friend – if you are a true follower of Christ, then YOU are a ROCK:
1 Pet. 2:5
As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him--YOU also, like LIVING STONES, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

As for your position that Abraham is NOT called the “ROCK” of Isaiah 51:1-2, here are some PROTESTANT scholars who disagree with you . . .

Charles Spurgeon
This is for your comfort, dear friends. If God could make out of Abraham and Sarah so great a nation as that of Israel, what is there that he cannot do? Do you say that the cause of God is brought very low in these evil days? It is not so low as when there seemed to be none but Abraham faithful in the whole world; yet God made that one mighty man to be like a foundation upon which he built up the chosen people, to whose keeping he committed the sacred oracles; and if he did that, what can he not do?

Adam Clarke Commentary
Ye that follow after righteousness - The people who, feeling the want of salvation, seek the Lord in order to be justified.
The rock - Abraham.
The hole of the pit - Sarah; as explained in Isaiah 51:2.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
Hearken unto me - That is, to the God of their fathers, who now addresses them. They are regarded as in exile and bondage, and as desponding in regard to their prospects. In this situation, God, or perhaps more properly the Messiah (compare the notes at Matthew 3:9, where he says, ‹For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.‘

The hole of the pit - The word rendered ‹hole‘ means such an excavation as men make who are taking stones from a quarry. It expresses substantially the same idea as the previous member of the verse. This language is sometimes addressed to Christians, with a view to produce humility by reminding them that they have been taken by God from a state of sin, and raised up, as it were, from a deep and dark pit of pollution. But this is not the sense of the passage, nor will it bear such an application. It may be used to denote that God has taken them, as stone is taken from the quarry; that he found them in their natural state as unhewn blocks of marble are; that he has moulded and formed them by his own agency, and fitted them into his spiritual temple; and that they owe all the beauty and grace of their Christian deportment to him; that this is an argument to prove that he who had done so much for them as to transform them, so to speak, from rough and unsightly blocks to polished stones, fitted for his spiritual temple on earth, is able to keep them still, and to fit them for his temple above. Such is the argument in the passage before us; and such a use of it is, of course, perfectly legitimate and fair.

Coffman's Commentaries on the Bible
"Look unto the rock ..." (Isaiah 51:1). Actually, the meaning here is not merely a rock, as indicated by its being called "hole" in the next line. The passage "should be read, `Look unto the quarry whence ye were digged.'"[3] The comparison, of course, is a metaphor instructing faithful believers to look back to their ancestry, Abraham and Sarah.

John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible
look unto the rock whence ye are hewn; which is in the next verse interpreted of Abraham; so called, not so much for the strength of his faith, as for his old age; when he looked like a hard dry ROCK, from whom no issue could be expected; and yet from hence a large number of stones were hewn, or a race of men sprung:
and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged; that is, to Sarah, who was for a long time barren, whose womb was shut up, but afterwards opened; and from whom, as from a cistern, (to which a wife is sometimes compared, Proverbs 5:15) flowed the waters of Judah, Isaiah 48:1 or the Jewish nation. Jerom thinks Christ is meant by both, the Rock of ages, in whom is everlasting strength; to whom men are to look for salvation, righteousness, and strength; and out of whose pierced side flowed blood and water: and in this sense he is followed by Cocceius, who interprets the rock of Christ, the Rock of salvation; out of whose side flowed the church, as out of the hole of a pit or cistern.

Geneva Study Bible
Hearken to me, a ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look to the b rock [from which] ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit [from which] ye were dug.
(a) He comforts the Church, that they would not be discouraged for their small number.
(b) That is, to Abraham, of whom you were begotten, and to Sarah of whom we were born.

Chuck Smith – Calvary Chapel
The Lord is calling unto the nation of Israel, unto His people, and God calls unto them to hearken to Him.
Ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD (Isa 51:1):
Two important things: following after righteousness, seeking the Lord.
"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness" (Matthew 5:6).
look to the ROCK from whence ye are hewn (Isa 51:1),
Actually, they are encouraged to look back to their roots. To look back to ABRAHAM. To the heritage that they had. To the covenant that God had made with their fathers.

Adam Clarke Commentary
Ye that follow after righteousness - The people who, feeling the want of salvation, seek the Lord in order to be justified.
The rock - Abraham.
The hole of the pit - Sarah; as explained in Isaiah 51:2.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
Hearken unto me - That is, to the God of their fathers, who now addresses them. They are regarded as in exile and bondage, and as desponding in regard to their prospects. In this situation, God, or perhaps more properly the Messiah (compare the notes at Matthew 3:9, where he says, ‹For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.‘
The hole of the pit - It may be used to denote that God has taken them, as stone is taken from the quarry; that he found them in their natural state as unhewn blocks of marble are; that he has moulded and formed them by his own agency, and fitted them into his spiritual temple; and that they owe all the beauty and grace of their Christian deportment to him; that this is an argument to prove that he who had done so much for them as to transform them, so to speak, from rough and unsightly blocks to polished stones, fitted for his spiritual temple on earth, is able to keep them still, and to fit them for his temple above. Such is the argument in the passage before us; and such a use of it is, of course, perfectly legitimate and fair.

Whedon's Commentary on the Bible
1. Hearken to me — This formula is used when there is a turn from one class of hearers to another.
Ye that follow… ye that seek the Lord — The address is to those who fully observe the law, lead just lives, and desire entire approval from Jehovah. Look unto the rock whence…
hewn… hole… whence… digged — Abraham, who was a selected block, so to speak, out of the original quarry of mankind.

Expository Notes of Dr. Thomas Constable
The Lord appealed to the righteous in Israel to listen to Him (cf. Isaiah 50:10). Watts believed the speaker, through Isaiah 51:4, was Darius. [Note: Watts, Isaiah 34-66 , p204.] These were the Israelites who sincerely wanted to trust and obey God, but found it difficult to do so because impending captivity seemed to contradict God"s promises. The Lord directed them to consider their history, their origin.
"Abraham was the rock from which his descendants were hewn-having a rocklike quality imparted to him by God"s faithfulness and grace." [Note: Archer, p645.]
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(1) Look unto the rock.—The implied argument is, that the wonder involved in the origin of Israel is as a ground of faith in its restoration and perpetuity. The rock is, of course, Abraham, the pit, Sarah.
Let me add to the list:
Primacy of St. Peter Verified by Protestant Scholars
We can keep stacking Protestant scholars to the moon, it won't make any difference to those defending a paradigm, but it might make a difference to those seeking the truth.
 
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epostle

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Bottom line in this discussion: If one wants to simply bask in centuries of contra- and anti-Catholic polemics and bias, and repeat and memorize and chant those, parrot-like, one can (it’s a free country). But if one is interested in the latest consensus of biblical commentary, and in the background of key passages in the New Testament with regard to Church government, then they have to dig a little deeper, and seriously delve into the endless riches of the Bible and Hebrew Old Testament culture and ways of thinking. I did the latter; Collins clearly did not.

Because of that fact, I’m fully confident that the fair-minded, open-minded reader, who is truly interested in all that the Bible has to say, in its depths (not in mere “surfacey” hyper-selective prooftexting; ignoring mountains of relevant data), will see that the purely biblical case for the primacy of St. Peter and even for the essential kernels of the later fully developed papacy (before we even get to Church history), is surprisingly strong (and some might say, compelling).
Armstrong vs. Collins & Walls #10: St. Peter & the Papacy
 
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Stranger

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First of all, as I already showed you - the 1st century document, The Epistle of Clement assures us that ALL of the apostles saw to it that they had successors. "ALL" includes James.

We don't read about Andrew's successor in Scripture - nor do we read about Bartholomew's or Jude's or Andrew's, etc. We don't depend on Scripture to tell us the entire history of the Church. That's a man-made problem that Protestants have because of their invention of Sola Scriptura.

As for Abraham - He NEVER acknowledged being the "Father of a multitude of nations" - and YOU never showed that. Not sure why you continue to lie about it but, suffice it to say, I've destroyed your position there . . .
Finally, as to Eve - she never acknowledged being "Mother of ALL the living" - yet YOU continue to lie and claim that she did. Please show me the Scriptural proof or simply admit that you've been Scripturally-spanked . . .

You read about James death. And there was no action to replace him. That is what you read. No apostolic succession.

I have repeatedly showed you where Abraham acknowledged believing and being the father of many nations. The same is true with Eve knowing and believing she was the mother of all living. I have given Scriptural proof. Go back and reread.

You want me present Scripture and I have. But you can't produce Scripture that shows James was replaced . So instead you turn to outside sources. What a hypocrite.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Scripture doesn't give us the entire history of the Church, Einstein - nor was it EVER meant to.

Besides - nobody is putting historical writings like the 1st Letter of Clement on par with Scripture, so grow up. I realize that being caught in TWO lies regarding Eve and Abraham is pretty embarrassing for you - but get over it already . . .

The only liar here is you. And worse, you don't admit lies and ignorance. You just continue your rude bullying method hoping it all goes away. As I have said, you are a credit to the pope and the papacy.

I have given you proof already from the Scripture concerning Abraham and Adam and Eve. Which you ignore.

What stupid statements both you and Rome are making here. You are establishing a doctrine of the Church, apostolic succession, not on the Scripture, but on outside sources. No surprise however. Yall do it all the time.

Stranger
 
B

brakelite

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@BreadOfLife I read all your quotes. How quickly true Christian faith face planted. From the first quote a steady decline began with the exaltation of Peter, till the last where we have church exalting itself as having primacy over all churches. We could follow this to the 12 century and on, with popes such as Innocent who claimed not only spiritual primacy over all Christians, but total civil authority over the underworld, the earth, and even heaven. There's no coming back from heresy, it leads further and further away from truth until the origins are unrecognizable. No longer is there a true faith and simple primitive belief in the priesthood of all believers, but a hierarchical despotism which persecutes and demands obedience and fealty from everyone on pain of death. Your own arrogant self-righteous bullying attitude reflects the spirit of the papacy to perfection.
 

Taken

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@BreadOfLife I read all your quotes. How quickly true Christian faith face planted. From the first quote a steady decline began with the exaltation of Peter, till the last where we have church exalting itself as having primacy over all churches. We could follow this to the 12 century and on, with popes such as Innocent who claimed not only spiritual primacy over all Christians, but total civil authority over the underworld, the earth, and even heaven. There's no coming back from heresy, it leads further and further away from truth until the origins are unrecognizable. No longer is there a true faith and simple primitive belief in the priesthood of all believers, but a hierarchical despotism which persecutes and demands obedience and fealty from everyone on pain of death. Your own arrogant self-righteous bullying attitude reflects the spirit of the papacy to perfection.

One only has to Look at the EVIDENCE of ones own words and what they promote to comprehend their Standing.

The one who has Named himself...BreadOfLife; consistently attempts To Brand ANYONE not In Agreement with him and his Catholic religion and his holy fathers the popes; As dishonest and a liar.

I see BOL as a true representative of the Catholic Religion, and a detriment to the Word of God.

God Bless,
Taken
 

epostle

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You read about James death. And there was no action to replace him. That is what you read. No apostolic succession.

I have repeatedly showed you where Abraham acknowledged believing and being the father of many nations. The same is true with Eve knowing and believing she was the mother of all living. I have given Scriptural proof. Go back and reread.

You want me present Scripture and I have. But you can't produce Scripture that shows James was replaced . So instead you turn to outside sources. What a hypocrite.

Stranger
You ignore the "outside sources" that gave us the Biblical codex. Denying everything that is not in Scripture is Bible worship, and a cheap excuse to make up your own. Denial is not "understanding history".
Simeon of Jerusalem, son of Clopas, was a Jewish Christian leader and according to most Christian traditions the second Bishop of Jerusalem (62 or 70–107).Simeon of Jerusalem - Wikipedia DENY, DENY, DENY.

St. Simeon, Bishop of Jerusalem, Martyr Saint Simeon, Bishop of Jerusalem, Martyr. February 18. Rev. Alban Butler. 1866. Volume II: February. The Lives of the Saints DENY, DENY, DENY

ST. SIMEON was the son of Cleophas, otherwise called Alpheus, brother to St. Joseph, and of Mary, sister to the Blessed Virgin. He was therefore nephew both to St. Joseph and to the Blessed Virgin, and cousin to Our Saviour. We cannot doubt but that he was ail early follower of Christ, and that he received the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost, with the Blessed Virgin and the apostles. When the Jews massacred St. James the Lesser,his brother Simeon reproached them for their atrocious cruelty. St. James, Bishop of Jerusalem, being put to death in the year 62, twenty-nine years after Our Saviour's Resurrection, the apostles and disciples met at Jerusalem to appoint him a successor. They unanimously chose St. Simeon, who had probably before assisted his brother in the government of that Church.
EWTN's Saints and other Holy People Home DENY, DENY, DENY

Simeon of Jerusalem (died 100s), 1st century AD; saint, martyr, and second bishop of Jerusalem Saint Simeon - Wikipedia
DENY, DENY, DENY.

According to Eusebius, Saint Simeon of Jerusalem was selected as James' successor after the conquest of Jerusalem which took place immediately after the martyrdom of James (i.e. no earlier than 70 AD) which puts the account in agreement with that of Flavius Josephus who puts James' first arrest and subsequent release by Procurator Albinus in 63 AD:[3][4] (Many interpret Josephus to be saying that James was martyred at that time, but Josephus states that he was released and the modern footnotes show that his martyrdom took place some years afterwards, shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem.) Simeon of Jerusalem Discussion | Revolvy
DENY, DENY, DENY

google: simeon "bishop of jerusalem" 7.2 million results. DENY, DENY, DENY

The only liar here is you. And worse, you don't admit lies and ignorance. You just continue your rude bullying method hoping it all goes away. As I have said, you are a credit to the pope and the papacy.

I have given you proof already from the Scripture concerning Abraham and Adam and Eve. Which you ignore.

What stupid statements both you and Rome are making here. You are establishing a doctrine of the Church, apostolic succession, not on the Scripture, but on outside sources. No surprise however. Yall do it all the time.

Stranger
You change the meaning of "Apostolic Succession". No surprise however. Yall do it all the time.

You rely on outside reformist sources to support a non-biblical principle of sola scriptura that isn't found anywhere in the Bible. Apostolic Succession is certainly inferred in Scripture, and confirmed by Early Church Fathers which you deem as worthless because they are not inspired (inspiration was proven by the ECF, whose writings are not inspired, but their general consensus is authoritive, which you deny, deny, deny)

Apostolic Succession as Seen in the Jerusalem Council
Here is a compelling biblical argument for an infallible Church, and against sola Scriptura.

Acts 1:15-26 – the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority.

Acts 1:20 – a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his “bishopric”) is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, “I’ll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own.”

Acts 9:17-19 – even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Col 1:25 – Paul calls his position a divine “office.” An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it’s not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 – Paul uses the word “episcopoi” (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul’s use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 – again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 – Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 2:2 – this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Acts 5:13 – the people acknowledged the apostles’ special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 – the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

Rom. 15:16 – Paul says he is a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of the ordained which is distinguishable from the universal priesthood of the laity. Notice the Gentiles are the “sacrifice” and Paul does the “offering.”

1 Cor. 5:3-5; 16:22; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 – these verses show the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize (“deliver to satan”).

2 Cor. 2:17 – Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God’s word. They are actually commissioned by God. It is not self-appointed authority.

2 Cor. 3:6 – Paul says that certain men have been qualified by God to be ministers of a New Covenant. This refers to the ministerial priesthood of Christ handed down the ages through sacramental ordination.

2 Cor. 5:20 – Paul says we are “ambassadors” for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ’s mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments.
APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION - Scripture Catholic
-features 39 ECF "worthless" uninspired quotes ranging from 98 A.D. to 602 A.D. that you have nothing to do with.

You can dismiss all these references supporting Apostolic Succession by changing its meaning. Yall do it all the time.
 
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epostle

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One only has to Look at the EVIDENCE of ones own words and what they promote to comprehend their Standing.

The one who has Named himself...BreadOfLife; consistently attempts To Brand ANYONE not In Agreement with him and his Catholic religion and his holy fathers the popes; As dishonest and a liar.

I see BOL as a true representative of the Catholic Religion, and a detriment to the Word of God.

God Bless,
Taken
BreadofLife consistently exposes lies, and lies have nothing to do with disagreement. Making things up without quotes amounts to lies. If you can't refute him, (by quoting him) then refrain from cheap shots.


th
 

ScottA

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And there you go being dishonest again.

NOWHERE did I even imply that Peter’s Authority usurps that of the Holy Spirit. Peter has his Authority BECAUSEof the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15).
You can't even quote it correctly...

Jesus did not give the Holy Spirit any authority. None. Much less Peter. That's the point, and the failure of your whole position.
Bottom line in this discussion: If one wants to simply bask in centuries of contra- and anti-Catholic polemics and bias, and repeat and memorize and chant those, parrot-like, one can (it’s a free country). But if one is interested in the latest consensus of biblical commentary, and in the background of key passages in the New Testament with regard to Church government, then they have to dig a little deeper, and seriously delve into the endless riches of the Bible and Hebrew Old Testament culture and ways of thinking. I did the latter; Collins clearly did not.

Because of that fact, I’m fully confident that the fair-minded, open-minded reader, who is truly interested in all that the Bible has to say, in its depths (not in mere “surfacey” hyper-selective prooftexting; ignoring mountains of relevant data), will see that the purely biblical case for the primacy of St. Peter and even for the essential kernels of the later fully developed papacy (before we even get to Church history), is surprisingly strong (and some might say, compelling).
Armstrong vs. Collins & Walls #10: St. Peter & the Papacy
That's not the problem.

The problem is not that the Catholics or the Protestants departed from what is written. The problem is...they didn't.

If you will be as fair and open-minded as you have suggested, just as one can track the earthly church that is evident in the world and in history...one can also track the heavenly church, that of spiritual stones, as promised.

But here we are quibbling over the affairs of men - men of the world, with some even giving reverence to the worldly church, and playing church, as if it were something more than humble service and a commandment leading up to the real church.

So, the error that has occurred is not limited to your own group, and therefore there is no need to continue in your defensive position. For the greater departure was not from the Word, but from actually following its Author when He said "Follow Me." He has defined His intentions for His church of where and when it is to be. But in departing to go unto the Father...the church, did not follow. With very simple instructions the church did not, then, nor now, simply "Go into all the world and share the good news" and "Follow Me", which path He continued on after His death on the cross and after His ascension.

What good is following Him, if you stop where the world stops?
 
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epostle

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You can't even quote it correctly...

Jesus did not give the Holy Spirit any authority. None. Much less Peter. That's the point, and the failure of your whole position.


exposestraw.jpg
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Taken

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BreadofLife consistently exposes lies, and lies have nothing to do with disagreement. Making things up without quotes amounts to lies. If you can't refute him, (by quoting him) then refrain from cheap shots.


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Perhaps you feel left out that I only mentioned BOL and not you. You both appear very in tune with a well taught lesson on how to deal with people who do not agree with things you promote, calling it Catholicism. You both promote yourselves as having all the knowledge of protocols promoted by your Church.

What you seem oblivious to; IS there are others who claim to ALSO be Catholic and make Claims on behalf of "the Catholic Religion". Well friend, Other "Catholics" are heard just as you and BOL are, and they don't always mesh with what you guys say.

It must be a tremendous responsibility for you and BOL to always be Correct and Protestants, liars and dishonest!

You might try first being involved in educating "your own Catholic brothers and sisters" before wagging your tongue at Protestants who have heard testimonies from "your Catholic brothers and sisters"....and recognize it is okay for Protestants to not be in agreement with you.

And BTW, there was no need for you to show me your certificate of hypocrisy.

God Bless,
Taken
 

BreadOfLife

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You read about James death. And there was no action to replace him. That is what you read. No apostolic succession.

I have repeatedly showed you where Abraham acknowledged believing and being the father of many nations. The same is true with Eve knowing and believing she was the mother of all living. I have given Scriptural proof. Go back and reread.

You want me present Scripture and I have. But you can't produce Scripture that shows James was replaced . So instead you turn to outside sources. What a hypocrite.

Stranger
Spoken like a Scripturally and historically bankrupt person.

As I have already educated you – the Bible is not meant to be a history Book of the Church – just its beginning. As I further educated you – NONE of the successors to the Apostles are mentioned in Scripture, so we look to history. For that matter, MUCH of what Jesus did after His Resurrection isn’t recorded in Scripture (John 21:25). Does that mean that He WASN’T there?

Your arguments are childish and frankly, stupid because you don’t even attempt to argue with reason. You just ignorantly shoot from the hip like every other angry anti-Catholic.

And AGAIN, as to Eve and Abraham – can you repost this Scriptural evidence you claim to have? At the very least– point me to the post where you presented this “evidence”.

I can’t WAIT to see this . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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The only liar here is you. And worse, you don't admit lies and ignorance. You just continue your rude bullying method hoping it all goes away. As I have said, you are a credit to the pope and the papacy.

I have given you proof already from the Scripture concerning Abraham and Adam and Eve. Which you ignore.

What stupid statements both you and Rome are making here. You are establishing a doctrine of the Church, apostolic succession, not on the Scripture, but on outside sources. No surprise however. Yall do it all the time.

Stranger
Like I just said in my LAST post – IF you have Scriptural evidence of Eve “acknowledging” her role as the “Mother of ALL the living” and Abraham “acknowledging” his role as “Father of a multitude of nations” – then PRODUCE it.

I’ll tell ya what – IF you can do that – I will formally apologize to you for accusing you of lying.
HOWEVER – if you can’t present this Scriptural proof – then YOU apologize to ME for lying.

Agreed??
 

BreadOfLife

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@BreadOfLife I read all your quotes. How quickly true Christian faith face planted. From the first quote a steady decline began with the exaltation of Peter, till the last where we have church exalting itself as having primacy over all churches. We could follow this to the 12 century and on, with popes such as Innocent who claimed not only spiritual primacy over all Christians, but total civil authority over the underworld, the earth, and even heaven. There's no coming back from heresy, it leads further and further away from truth until the origins are unrecognizable. No longer is there a true faith and simple primitive belief in the priesthood of all believers, but a hierarchical despotism which persecutes and demands obedience and fealty from everyone on pain of death. Your own arrogant self-righteous bullying attitude reflects the spirit of the papacy to perfection.
First of all - there is no such thing as “Churches”. Jesus built ONE Church. He Prayed fervently for that ONE Church to remain as ONE – as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).

The perversion of Protestantism tragically splintered that ONE Church and led millions away from the unity of ONEthat Jesus prayed for. When we read of “Church-ES in the NT, these are NOT different denominations. It is theSAME Church in different locales.

This is why we read about holding fast to what the Apostles taught – whether by word of mouth OR BY written letter (2 Thess. 2:15). They were taught to be of ONE spirit and ONE mind (Acts 1:14).

This command has been completely disregarded with the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant factions who ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim that they were “led” to these beliefs by the Holy Spirit.

God is NOT the Author of this confusiondisobedient and spiritually-prideful MEN are . . .