Very big GAP in the trinity

[Truther]

The Son did not become a man until the Incarnation when He walked this earth as a man. He was Spirit just like the Father and Holy Spirit prior to the Incarnation.

What does the highlighted say about how the 1st Adam was created?...


14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[Brakelite]

I've been wavering back and forth over the concept of the Trinity/Godhead for several years now. At times I would find myself firmly on the trinitarian side, then firmly anti trinitarian. Right now, simply because the Bible does not elaborate on the actual nature of God at all, and most of our beliefs regarding such are merely assumptions, I would rather just leave the subject alone. But I feel myself being constantly drawn back into these discussions.
If God had intended we understand His nature, He may have granted us a great deal more detail. I do believe in a Trinity. However, I think the church has gone too far in attempting to define it, way too far in demanding our acceptance of the church's definition, and way way too far in persecuting those who don't.
From my reading of scripture I notice that God is Spirit, but also the Spirit of God suggests ownership. God, being Spirit, has a Spirit... Yet we also read that the Spirit can be poured out... Be grieved.... Be blasphemed... Be obeyed... We can be led, inspired, and filled by the Spirit. And more. There appears to be a great deal of multi tasking going on here.
And yet we are also told that God ministers to mankind through His angels. We can get confused I think between the work of angels and that of the holy Spirit. It may even be a combination of both. But the actual nature of the holy Spirit and how it's... His? Union between the Father and Son is made a little clearer to understand , but not fully revealed, and I think we ought not go down that path of how the holy Spirit is actually connected to the Godhead because I think that very holy ground which we ought not be making assumptions over.
As for the Father and Son, that more simple. Is Jesus deity? If course. He is His Father's Son. The same Divine nature which the Son inherited. There is nothing the Father has that the Son wasnt given. Except rank. It appears that Jesus deferred constantly to the Father as being His Superior in rank and authority. And Corinthians reveals that after the Father has put all Christ's enemies under his feet, then Christ once again gives the kingdom into the hands of the Father that the Father may continue to rule and reign over all. That where I am at the moment. I'm reluctant to venture too much deeper... Yes, there are some more truth revealed but I don't think it changes what I have testified to above.
So if as I currently believe there is an issue of rank, then that somehow throws a spanner in the general acceptance of the creeds which declare perfect equality in all things.

 

[ChristisGod]

What does the highlighted say about how the 1st Adam was created?...


14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

adam is a figure of HIM who is to come (future) not past.

 

[ChristisGod]

I've been wavering back and forth over the concept of the Trinity/Godhead for several years now. At times I would find myself firmly on the trinitarian side, then firmly anti trinitarian. Right now, simply because the Bible does not elaborate on the actual nature of God at all, and most of our beliefs regarding such are merely assumptions, I would rather just leave the subject alone. But I feel myself being constantly drawn back into these discussions.
If God had intended we understand His nature, He may have granted us a great deal more detail. I do believe in a Trinity. However, I think the church has gone too far in attempting to define it, way too far in demanding our acceptance of the church's definition, and way way too far in persecuting those who don't.
From my reading of scripture I notice that God is Spirit, but also the Spirit of God suggests ownership. God, being Spirit, has a Spirit... Yet we also read that the Spirit can be poured out... Be grieved.... Be blasphemed... Be obeyed... We can be led, inspired, and filled by the Spirit. And more. There appears to be a great deal of multi tasking going on here.
And yet we are also told that God ministers to mankind through His angels. We can get confused I think between the work of angels and that of the holy Spirit. It may even be a combination of both. But the actual nature of the holy Spirit and how it's... His? Union between the Father and Son is made a little clearer to understand , but not fully revealed, and I think we ought not go down that path of how the holy Spirit is actually connected to the Godhead because I think that very holy ground which we ought not be making assumptions over.
As for the Father and Son, that more simple. Is Jesus deity? If course. He is His Father's Son. The same Divine nature which the Son inherited. There is nothing the Father has that the Son wasnt given. Except rank. It appears that Jesus deferred constantly to the Father as being His Superior in rank and authority. And Corinthians reveals that after the Father has put all Christ's enemies under his feet, then Christ once again gives the kingdom into the hands of the Father that the Father may continue to rule and reign over all. That where I am at the moment. I'm reluctant to venture too much deeper... Yes, there are some more truth revealed but I don't think it changes what I have testified to above.
So if as I currently believe there is an issue of rank, then that somehow throws a spanner in the general acceptance of the creeds which declare perfect equality in all things.

Jesus affirmed the One God that is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit below as we read the 1 NAME ( Father, Son and H.S) in which we are baptized into as believers.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

The name above is singular as in the One God singular - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the One God, One Name.

hope this helps !!!

 

[101G]

Who is the First and the Last below ?

Who is the " I " ?
Who is the " Me " ?

Isa 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Isa 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

In Chess this is called checkmate.

game over !

yes it's GAME OVER for you. for it's the same ONE person. for ALSO indicate the same ONE person here in Isaiah 48:12 as first and last. so it's check mate for you. and here's why. scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." see that term "WITH" here in Isaiah 41:4, it is the same "WITH" in John 1:1 listen, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word, (the Son), was with God, (the Father), and the Word was God". see the "WORD" who is Jesus the Son is the same one Person that is GOD, because WITH certify the FIRST/Father is "with" the Son/the LAST, just as Isaiah 48:12 clearly states that the "FIRST" is ALSO the "LAST". you just messed up by not knowing about Isaiah 41:4. see how you lied to yourself. you tried to use the general word "GOD" to cover your so call separate Father and Son as one Spirit ... called "GOD". but it backed fired on you, lol. for the Word, "WITH" certify that the Father and the Son is the Same person called God, and this eliminate truther claim also, as two separate persons of a Father and a Son as separate Persons, lol. talk about killing two birds with ONE STONE, with one STONE. Isaiah 41:4 blow all of that false doctrine of the both of you out of the water. for it's ONLY one person.... ... lol (smile) oh how ignorant people are.

see that term "WITH" in Isaiah 41:4 eliminates any two person of Father and Son. ... LOL, I cain't stop laughing here. out of your own mouth you kill yourself, you put your feet both of them one in your mouth and the other in truther mouth by using the "First" and the "last". see the First, (Father) is the Last, the (Son).

now let's understand this FIRST and the Last. I don't want to leave you fellas in the DARK... listen up Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
that term "ONE" in Hebrew, is
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

see that second definition? Jesus, the ordinal "FIRST", the LORD all cap was "alone" and by himself, (Father), who "MADE ALL THINGS" at Isaiah 44:24. who is the SAME ONE PERSON, Jesus, at John 1:3 who is the Last. meaning that he Jesus is the "LAST" Adam, the ordinal Last, the Lord , the Son. supportive scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." GOD in Flesh, the First is the Last, the First, the Father, Jesus was alone and by himself when he made all things. and he is the CREATOR and MAKER of all things.... (hence the title, title, title, Father). and as the LAST, the ordinal Last he is SAVIOUR, and REDEEMER of all things, (hence the title, title, title, Son)... BINGO. or as you say... checkmate.

see Christophany, you put your foot in your mout when you posted the "First" and the "Last" who is Jesus, the same one person, (John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24). because Isaiah 41:4 and John 1:1 in the term with solidify the Father and the Son as the SAME one Person. so that killed yours and truther false doctrine of two separate persons as Father and Son. LOL, LOL, LOL, out of your own mouth you eliminates your own doctrine... ain't the Lord Jesus Good, Psalms 110:1 is in effect.

I will use this post for all time that eliminates these false doctrine as the Father and the son are two separate persons. well that lie has come to an end.

I want you and truther to re-read this post, for I need not to go any futher, until we reveal how God, JESUS, is Father, the ordinal First, and the Son, the ordinal Last, the same one Person at the same time....


so Good day for now.

PICJAG.

 

[ChristisGod]

yes it's GAME OVER for you. for it's the same ONE person. for ALSO indicate the same ONE person here in Isaiah 48:12 as first and last. so it's check mate for you. and here's why. scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." see that term "WITH" here in Isaiah 41:4, it is the same "WITH" in John 1:1 listen, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word, (the Son), was with God, (the Father), and the Word was God". see the "WORD" who is Jesus the Son is the same one Person that is GOD, because WITH certify the FIRST/Father is "with" the Son/the LAST, just as Isaiah 48:12 clearly states that the "FIRST" is ALSO the "LAST". you just messed up by not knowing about Isaiah 41:4. see how you lied to yourself. you tried to use the general word "GOD" to cover your so call separate Father and Son as one Spirit ... called "GOD". but it backed fired on you, lol. for the Word, "WITH" certify that the Father and the Son is the Same person called God, and this eliminate truther claim also, as two separate persons of a Father and a Son as separate Persons, lol. talk about killing two birds with ONE STONE, with one STONE. Isaiah 41:4 blow all of that false doctrine of the both of you out of the water. for it's ONLY one person.... ... lol (smile) oh how ignorant people are.

see that term "WITH" in Isaiah 41:4 eliminates any two person of Father and Son. ... LOL, I cain't stop laughing here. out of your own mouth you kill yourself, you put your feet both of them one in your mouth and the other in truther mouth by using the "First" and the "last". see the First, (Father) is the Last, the (Son).

now let's understand this FIRST and the Last. I don't want to leave you fellas in the DARK... listen up Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
that term "ONE" in Hebrew, is
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

see that second definition? Jesus, the ordinal "FIRST", the LORD all cap was "alone" and by himself, (Father), who "MADE ALL THINGS" at Isaiah 44:24. who is the SAME ONE PERSON, Jesus, at John 1:3 who is the Last. meaning that he Jesus is the "LAST" Adam, the ordinal Last, the Lord , the Son. supportive scripture, 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." sGOD in Flesh, the First is the Last, the First, the Father, Jesus was alone and by himself when he made all things. and he is the CREATOR and MAKER of all things.... (hence the title, title, title, Father). and as the LAST, the ordinal Last he is SAVIOUR, and REDEEMER of all things, (hence the title, title, title, Son)... BINGO. or as you say... checkmate.

see Christophany, you put your foot in your mout when you posted the "First" and the "Last" who is Jesus, the same one person, (John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24). because Isaiah 41:4 and John 1:1 in the term with solidify the Father and the Son as the SAME one Person. so that killed yours and truther false doctrine of two separate persons as Father and Son. LOL, LOL, LOL, out of your own mouth you eliminates your own doctrine... ain't the Lord Jesus Good, Psalms 110:1 is in effect.

I will use this post for all time that eliminates these false doctrine as the Father and the son are two separate persons. well that lie has come to an end.

I want you and truther to re-read this post, for I need not to go any futher, until we reveal how God, JESUS, is Father, the ordinal First, and the Son, the ordinal Last, the same one Person at the same time....


so Good day for now.

PICJAG.

keep believing in the false god of sabellianism/modalism, oneness .

1 Cor 8:6 alone destroys your argument as does John 1:1 and 17:5.

the above reveals both the Father/Son together in Creation.

next STRAWMAN........................................

hope this helps !!!

 

[101G]

keep believing in the false god of sabellianism/modalism, oneness .

1 Cor 8:6 alone destroys your argument as does John 1:1 and 17:5.

the above reveals both the Father/Son together in Creation.

next STRAWMAN........................................

hope this helps !!!

what's wrong, resorting to name calling now? so I'm a sabellianism/modalism? LOL, no I'm a Diversified Oneness.... lol, you have no clue as to what that is, do you....... see your doctrine of two or three persons in the Godhead is sabellianism/modalism in reverse....

but I'm not going to argue, just one thing, see post #105 again....... lol. that term "with" in Isaiah 41:4 just killed your doctrine cold ..... didn't it.... (smile)

now, if you want to know how Jesus is the Father and the Son at the same time just ask.

PICJAG

 

[ChristisGod]

what's wrong, resorting to name calling now? so I'm a sabellianism/modalism? LOL, no I'm a Diversified Oneness.... lol, you have no clue as to what that is, do you....... see your doctrine of two or three persons in the Godhead is sabellianism/modalism in reverse....

but I'm not going to argue, just one thing, see post #105 again....... lol. that term "with" in Isaiah 41:4 just killed your doctrine cold ..... didn't it.... (smile)

now, if you want to know how Jesus is the Father and the Son at the same time just ask.

PICJAG

you can twist the Scriptures all day long but nothing will change the TRUTH of the ONE GOD who Tri-Personal. the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[michaelvpardo]

"The original and current Jewish definition of a born Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish. Even though the Torah forbids a Jewish woman to marry a Gentile man, if she does, her children will still be Jewish." Who is a Jew, according to the Torah?

Not entirely accurate. Contemporary Judaism, even Iraeli law, views matrilineal succession as identifying heritage, but if you look at the genealogies of Jesus and read the book of Ruth, you find that one of Jesus' female ancestors was from Moab and a descendant of Lot.

 

[101G]

you can twist the Scriptures all day long but nothing will change the TRUTH of the ONE GOD who Tri-Personal. the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

so we can take this as you have no clue to what post #105 said?. and you cannot answer John 1:3 & Isaiah 44:24 truthfully, just read post #105 again...

note: understand the "WITH" in Isaiah 41:4 as to the First/Father and the Last/Son, and reconcile that with the First and the Last at Isaiah 48:12 then with the WORD and GOD in John 1:1... (smile) and see if its not the same one person as Jesus is in Revelation..... untill then see ya. :cool:

PICJAG.

 

[ChristisGod]

so we can take this as you have no clue to what post #105 said?. and you cannot answer John 1:3 & Isaiah 44:24 truthfully, just read post #105 again...

note: understand the "WITH" in Isaiah 41:4 as to the First/Father and the Last/Son, and reconcile that with the First and the Last at Isaiah 48:12 then with the WORD and GOD in John 1:1... (smile) and see if its not the same one person as Jesus is in Revelation..... untill then see ya. :cool:

PICJAG.

So much for you games eh ?

Isa 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

oops YHWH above includes Redeemer as God.

next..........................................

hope this helps !!!

 

[101G]

I've been wavering back and forth over the concept of the Trinity/Godhead for several years now. At times I would find myself firmly on the trinitarian side, then firmly anti trinitarian. Right now, simply because the Bible does not elaborate on the actual nature of God at all, and most of our beliefs regarding such are merely assumptions, I would rather just leave the subject alone. But I feel myself being constantly drawn back into these discussions.
If God had intended we understand His nature, He may have granted us a great deal more detail. I do believe in a Trinity. However, I think the church has gone too far in attempting to define it, way too far in demanding our acceptance of the church's definition, and way way too far in persecuting those who don't.

first thanks for the reply, second, God did give us detail of his Godhead, listen, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."
Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

see it's no excuse not to Know, it right there in Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:". but one can start in Genesis 2:18 -25 to get the foundation information as the apostle Paul said, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." BINGO. so there is no need to sit on the sideline or on the fence about the Godhead. dig, and search out words. be a berean and see if the TRUTH are in the scriptures.

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

So much for you games eh ?

Isa 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

oops YHWH above includes Redeemer as God.

next..........................................

hope this helps !!!

LOL, LOL, LOL, context, context, context, his REDEEMER... which is Jacob's .... my my, my, read before you speak... ok.

and if you just want to talk or hold a conversation, that's what facebook and tweeter are for.... ok...

we suggest you read, Hebrews 5:11-14 ... ok.

PICJAG.

 

[Enoch111]

The Son is the Father (Isaiah 9:6); while the Father is not the Son (Isaiah 57:15, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7). The Holy Ghost is the Son and the Father (I'm tired right now and may comment on this later). But the Father and the Son are not the Holy Ghost.

TOTAL TOTAL NONSENSE. You are just as confused as the rest of the naysayers. So what you have concluded is NOT "just by faith". It is "just by human reason". Big difference. You should seriously think of changing your screen name.

 

[101G]

TOTAL TOTAL NONSENSE. You are just as confused as the rest of the naysayers. So what you have concluded is NOT "just by faith". It is "just by human reason". Big difference. You should seriously think of changing your screen name.

well prove that scripture, Isaiah 9:6 wrong then?

PICJAG

 

[ChristisGod]

LOL, LOL, LOL, context, context, context, his REDEEMER... which is Jacob's .... my my, my, read before you speak... ok.

and if you just want to talk or hold a conversation, that's what facebook and tweeter are for.... ok...

we suggest you read, Hebrews 5:11-14 ... ok.

PICJAG.

ad hominems are a sure way of showing defeat, thanks for the insults !

 

[101G]

ad hominems are a sure way of showing defeat, thanks for the insults !

no insult, the scripture speak for themselves. now if you cannot understand then shame and the insult are U........ (smile).

read, Hebrews 5:11-14 ... ok.

PICJAG

 

[ChristisGod]

no insult, the scripture speak for themselves. now if you cannot understand then shame and the insult are U........ (smile).

read, Hebrews 5:11-14 ... ok.

PICJAG

read Matthew 23...... ok

 

[bbyrd009]

If God had intended we understand His nature, He may have granted us a great deal more detail.

I said "you are elohim" maybe?

 

[ChristisGod]

now, if you want to know how Jesus is the Father and the Son at the same time just ask.

PICJAG

Looks like Jesus below just crumbled you entire house of cards built upon sinking sand eh ?

Jesus called the FATHER- THE ONLY TRUE GOD.

John 17:3
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Now lets see how you TWIST this passage, I'll get the popcorn ready this should be quite entertaining to watch.

hope this helps !!!