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Wake up call - What hell is like

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Wakka, Aug 22, 2007.

  1. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    I'm talking about the place after the second death. Eternal suffering. Right now there is the prison. And then there will be eternal hell after the second death.And that isn't eternal?Revelations 20:1010.And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
     
  2. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr;15683)
    Well, heres how I see it, and I could take your position and agrue it also. For one, these things aren't easily argued and must be thought out logically in every sense possible, since the Bible doesn't outright tell us, and we have to guess somewhat at it, because we will never truly know till we die physically.These are the problems I see with your argument.1). Jesus told the rich man's son, if you call me good and wise, you might as call me God. So he's implying the distance between Jesus and the Rich man's son is just as infinite as the distance between Jesus and God. Because he is only good and wise and was doing the one who sent him's, will.2). If The Angels (Gap Theory or Not) didn't become mortal, because they passed the 1st great test, which was not believing Satan the 1st time in his fall known as the Katabole, then here Man or (better named specifically to the line of man who the messiah would come through) ADAM was given a 2nd chance (might-not -be--liable-to-die) speaking. Had he not partaken of the "Fig Tree". He would still be in his same state, per say.3). The Angels, who aren't perfect like God (Cause No One Is) and didn't follow Satan in the Noahic Nephillium assault have been living with his reproach for a very long time. Whereas Man fell with Satan to earth, so to speak, being innocent in that he was deceived. But guilty for not obeying.4). Only One can be God, we can be sons and heir to the promise through Christ in part. Or even through the Abrahamic promise to the Children of Israel , whose promises he won't forsake. This also takes in a thorough understanding of Revelation, which I can't go into. The Book of revelation is to the Jew and the House of Israel and the promises he made to them. Just check Bullingers Commentary on Revelation to see. (It's 350 pages plus long though.)5). Refering to objection 1, There are angels who, are as near to perfect as you can get, (not just in faith, but in works). The four creatures, Michael, (some say Christ spiritually) and other archangels, (the highest of angels) like Satan were perfect from the day they were created until ... So also 6th Day MAN or 8th Day Ha'dam is a creature himself.
    I could answer these questions, but you know what I do? I simply avoid all that reasoning and simply go to the meaning of the word that is translated Eternal in the New Testament.....here take a look.Mark 10:30 (KJV) 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. eternalGreek Word: αἰώνιοςTransliteration: aiōniosPhonetic Pronunciation:ahee-o'-nee-os from (aion); perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) :- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). —Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary 1 Timothy 1:17 (KJV) 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal , invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. immortal, Greek Word: ἄφθαρτοςTransliteration: aphthartosPhonetic Pronunciation:af'-thar-tos from (a) (as a negative particle) and a derivative of (phtheiro); undecaying (in essence or continuance) :- not (in-, un-) corruptible, immortal. —Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew DictionaryNotice that the Greek word for eternal includes the past as well as the future, as oppose to immortal life which only deals with the present and future. Also notice that there definitions are not even similar in the Greek. If eternal and immortal were the same, it would not be used twice in 1 Timothy 1:17.
     
  3. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    I'm talking about the place after the second death. Eternal suffering. Right now there is the prison. And then there will be eternal hell after the second death.And that isn't eternal?Revelations 20:1010.And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    There is no such thing in the Bible as eternal suffering....not even eternal punishing is mentioned. What is mention is eternal punishment, but eternal punishment and eternal punishing is not the same thing.Eternal punishment simply means that once the person is burnt up he/she will never be brought back to life....the punishment is final. If it was to be an eternal punishing, then the person would have to continue to exist for ever and there pain/torcher also continues, never ending. But as I said, you will never find Eternal punishing, or Eternal suffering in the Bible.Also it's not the false prophets that will be tormented forever, but Satan.
     
  4. ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr

    ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr New Member

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    I don't believe the 2nd death is eternal I believe it is final.Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.And that when someone is blotted out of the book of life they exist no more, not eternal damnation and hellfire.Exo 32:31-33 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. But:Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Job 27:13-15 This is the portion of a wicked man with God, and the heritage of oppressors, which they shall receive of the Almighty. If his children be multiplied, it is for the sword: and his offspring shall not be satisfied with bread. Those that remain of him shall be buried in death: and his widows shall not weep.
     
  5. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    I don't believe what I'm hearing. It is your fleshly bodies that die out. Not your spirit. I'm going to have to meditate on this. And I strongly believe that it will be eternal.I want to hear denver's saying to this.
     
  6. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (ÐøÞÞlégäñgèr;15713)
    I don't believe the 2nd death is eternal I believe it is final.Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.And that when someone is blotted out of the book of life they exist no more, not eternal damnation and hellfire.Exo 32:31-33 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. But:Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Job 27:13-15 This is the portion of a wicked man with God, and the heritage of oppressors, which they shall receive of the Almighty. If his children be multiplied, it is for the sword: and his offspring shall not be satisfied with bread. Those that remain of him shall be buried in death: and his widows shall not weep.
    Very good...God is loving and He would never torcher a person without end, but Satan would if he could. My hope is that more and more Christians will see that there belief that God will be punishing or allow human beings who chose not to repent will suffer forever in Hell/geenna - Phonetic Pronunciation:gheh'-en-nah is false.
     
  7. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Alright. I'm not trying to be a false prophet or anything. I'm just confused. And I'm having a rough time accepting that God will not punish those who chose not to repent. The death given from the original sin was a fleshly death. But our souls live. That's the way I see it.This is what I've got so far:Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Revelation 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
     
  8. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Alright. I'm not trying to be a false prophet or anything. I'm just confused. And I'm having a rough time accepting that God will not punish those who chose not to repent. The death given from the original sin was a fleshly death. But our souls live. That's the way I see it.This is what I've got so far:Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.Revelation 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    I am not saying that God will not punish those who refuse to repent after He has been so merciful to them. What I am saying and what the scriptures shows is that it will not be an Eternal punishing, but an Eternal punishment....if you understand English grammar you will understand the difference.
     
  9. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    How can God just let them cease to exist? Justice must be served. God is just. He will see to it that the ones who aren't in the book of life are punished. God isn't all love. He's a serious, almighty, and powerful. He's the same God that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. And God is loving only to those who know him. If you're not with God, you have every reason to fear him!And the second death is the separation from God. Not the ceasing to exist.Revelation 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.Revelation 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And if Cody is reading. It's me Ilya.
     
  10. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Actually no Wakka...When Adam and Eve sinned...Sin is a seperation of God. Sin is death, because of sin, (Adam's sin) we all die...Humans can now only can get up to 120 years...We all die in the flesh. That is the first death...The Lake of Fire is the death of the soul, that is the second death.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
     
  11. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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  12. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    Actually. Thanks for that verse.Wait. That scripture says that God CAN destroy the soul. But it never says that God will destroy the soul in the second death. At least I haven't come across it.
     
  13. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    How can God just let them cease to exist? Justice must be served. God is just. He will see to it that the ones who aren't in the book of life are punished. God isn't all love. He's a serious, almighty, and powerful. He's the same God that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. And God is loving only to those who know him. If you're not with God, you have every reason to fear him!And the second death is the separation from God. Not the ceasing to exist.Revelation 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.Revelation 20:14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.And if Cody is reading. It's me Ilya.
    God is not all justice either....He is merciful, He temper His justice with mercy even to the wicked. If God was all justice, then even Christians would be condemned, because He would not send His Son to die for the sins of the world and hence we would have no hope. What can be more just than removing the wicked from existence? Everything comes from God and belongs to God, even the life and spirit of the wicked. He simply takes his life and spirit away from them and they cease to exist. No more sinner around, even the memory of them will be forgotten, as the scripture tells us, it will be as if they never existed.
     
  14. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    Alright. I'm not trying to be a false prophet or anything. I'm just confused. And I'm having a rough time accepting that God will not punish those who chose not to repent. The death given from the original sin was a fleshly death. But our souls live. That's the way I see it.Wakka,When we get separatred from God eternally that is the penalty and punishment. People who love God and obey Him will have eternal life and be with Him. We will live peacefully in paradice earth, no more satan's temptation either.love, hitomi
     
  15. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    Well I found this. Give your comment on it. It seems to somewhat explain what I'm trying to tell you.
    Scenario of the Lake of FireThe fire in the Lake of Fire is an everlasting, unquenchable fire but not a consuming fire. It is a lake of fire AND brimstone. Brimstone is sulfur – it burns with a blue flame, and its stifling odor stings the nostrils. Those who spend eternity in that horrible place will experience never-ending, excruciating pain unlike anything they ever suffered on earth. The stifling odor from the brimstone will cause those in hell to cry out for air, but they will never breathe fresh air again. There will be no unconsciousness to take away the sense of suffocation. There will be the stench of burning flesh that never dies and is never consumed. There will be no shutting out the screams of anguish, the shrieks of rage, and the grinding of teeth – the loud wailing of masses of people will go on for eternity. There will be aloneness such as they have never known, with no insanity in which to escape. There will be no fellowship, no shoulder to cry on, and no sympathetic ear. They lived for self while on earth, and now all they have is “self” – no one will care because each one will be taken up with his or her own torment.There is no such thing as annihilation in the Lake of Fire. The relief of death will never come, because death also has been cast into the Lake of Fire. Just as there is no such thing as unconsciousness, there is no such thing as sleep in the Lake of Fire – tiredness will never end. Eyes will never close to give relief from the torturous sulfuric fumes. Thirst and the agonizing pain of dryness on the tongue and throat will be endless.Those things for which the tormented souls lived on earth will indicate the area of their torment in the Lake of Fire. Those who abused their bodies with tobacco, alcohol, or drugs will never have relief – the cravings will be eternal. If, on earth, any were involved in some form of sexual perversion their torment will be some of the worst, because the body was intended to be the temple of the Holy Spirit and their sin was against the body. There will be never-ending memories of their partners, and they will be tormented constantly with unfulfilled desires.Memories of all the evil deeds committed while on earth will remain vivid forever. Never to be forgotten will be the memories of every wrong done against another. There will be memories of times when the Gospel was heard, but put off until “later.” They will remember every believer they knew on earth. There will be the memories of a godly mother or grandmother who spent countless hours praying for them, while they willfully rejected Jesus. Two words will ring incessantly in their minds: “if only.” And there will be no end to the “ringing.”Unrepentant murderers and those having shed the blood of the innocent unborn – or any person responsible for encouraging such – will pay an eternal price. Thoughts of the cries of babies will haunt them forever – there will be no escape.The false prophets (i.e. ministers who have not preached the truth) who caused souls to be lost will have the worst punishment of all. They will be horrified to find themselves cast into the Lake of Fire in the company of Satan, the beast, and the false prophet. The rage of these false ministers against God Whom they believed they served will cause blasphemous tirades to echo all over the Lake of Fire. Those whom they turned away from trusting Jesus will recognize the voices of these “ministers,” and their anger and anguish will be magnified at the sound of these religious impostors who lied to them.All those who are suffering the torment of hell fire are there because they chose a life of flesh. And now their eternal reward is in the place “where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.” (Mark 9:48 NAS)Is such a scenerio beyond comprehension? May the Spirit of Grace keep us ever true!
    And this:
    According to scripture hell is hot and eternal. If an unbeliever is thrown into hell and just consumed, then why does the Bible describe wailing and gnashing of teeth? If you're in a fire it doesnt take but a few moments for you to pass out, and then die.Mat 13:49-50 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.SIX TIMES in Matthew is wailing and gnashing of teeth mentioned in connection with hell.Suffering in hell is eternal.Think about this... if hell meant we were just consumed and then ceased to exist, how bad is that? A few moments of terror, and then it's over. Those of you who think this, you would fit in well at a Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall... at least as far as your beliefs about hell. The only difference is, they dont believe in hell... you just cease to exist. They took the fire out for ya.If there was no suffering in hell, then why should I bother getting saved? Live it up, die, burn for a few moments, then cease. Small price to pay for being able to party my butt off thru this life.You ask what I believe... I believe what the Bible says about it. The Bible is a very simple book in the sense that it isnt that hard to understand. It is us who make understanding the Bible hard. We try and look for deep things that arent there to be discovered, we take things out of context to proove our agenda is the right one, etc etc. (thats not pointed at anyone in particular... just making an observation)The Bible says "...eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."Well, I think the opposite is true as well for those who reject Him.Krispy
    And most importantly:
    Hell is not just a place but a being or a person.I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. Revelation 6:8Notice they are introduced as actual beings. Which reveals what Jesus was saying.I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death. John 8:51What he was saying was that believers will die but will not see the being or person death.Hell is a phisical place of actual punishment where unbelievers are held until the second death which is the lake of fire. Then not just unbelievers but Satan,his Angels and the beings Death and Hell will be thrown.And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15To believe that people are not tormented day and night for ever and ever physically is a heresy. Thats exactly what the jehovah witnesses believe.
     
  16. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    We will live peacefully in paradice earth, no more satan's temptation either.
    Believe me, when we have been gloried Satan would not be a match for us anyway.Here is a prophecy about Satan's end and what some of us will say about him, when we see him.Isaiah 14:12-20 (KJV) 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
     
  17. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Well I found this. Give your comment on it. It seems to somewhat explain what I'm trying to tell you.And this:And most importantly:
    There is a lot of anguish before one is killed/burnt up by fire. If you are in a burning building and the fire is getting closer and hotter, and there is no escape, don't you suffer pain and anguish before the fire consumes you?
     
  18. Wakka

    Wakka Super Member

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    There is a lot of anguish before one is killed/burnt up by fire. If you are in a burning building and the fire is getting closer and hotter, and there is no escape, don't you suffer pain and anguish before the fire consumes you?
    It says that the fire can't consume you. You'll just be burning.
     
  19. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    It says that the fire can't consume you. You'll just be burning.
    Where does it say that?
     
  20. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    To believe that people are not tormented day and night for ever and ever physically is a heresy. Thats exactly what the jehovah witnesses believe.
    Yes, I was attracted to JW mainly because of anti military and plus this one. They also dont believe in OSAS either. But I concluded they are too legalistic in their operation of organization. (I have tried to join them and studied the Bible with them for solid 6 months.)
     
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