Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Kermos · Sep 18, 2022

BeyondET · Sep 18, 2022

Kermos said:
Adam had no free will.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

That's where the whole idea falls apart, you can't blame anyone else unless you have the free will to do it, Adam had it so did Eve.

Kermos · Sep 18, 2022

BeyondET said:
That's where the whole idea falls apart, you can't blame anyone else unless you have the free will to do it, Adam had it so did Eve.

Did God's Plan A Fail - Forcing God To Spontaneously Develop Plan B?

According to the free will "good Adam" teaching, God had an original plan for Adam to live forever in the paradise on earth where Adam was made, and it is just termed the Good Plan until Adam ate the fruit.

I equate "spiritually alive", "upright", "perfect", "righteous" and the like with "good" for the purposes of this sidebar.

Advocating the "good Adam" precept advocates the concept of good people converting to evil people; in other words, a GOOD Adam conquering a GOOD command of God in order to convert to an EVIL Adam.

The "good Adam" precept goes with the GOOD God being surprised by the GOOD Adam destroying the GOOD God's GOOD Plan A of the GOOD Adam living forever in God's GOOD paradise, so the GOOD God in a panic abandoned the GOOD Plan A to develop a GOOD Plan B to expel the EVIL Adam from paradise into a CURSED land with the GOOD promise of a Redeemer. The GOOD Plan A stopped being GOOD Plan A, so that means GOOD Plan A converted to EVIL plan A since the GOOD Adam caused GOOD Plan A to error out.

So, the "good Adam" precept conveys that God unwittingly created everything only to have it catastrophically crumble right in front of God. By the hand of man taken away from God. With God at the mercy of man. Unmercy perhaps being a better word.

This means GOOD God produced an imperfect plan, formerly GOOD Plan A now EVIL plan A; in other words, the GOOD God's GOOD Plan A failed with a spiritually alive Adam lost to be spiritually dead; in other words , the "good Adam" precept has it that GOOD Adam thwarted GOOD God, so GOOD God was too small to preserve GOOD Plan A, so GOOD God converted to EVIL god (this is following to where the "good Adam" precept leads), and EVIL god was incapable of preserving a spiritually alive person.

See that the "good Adam" precept has man snatching the "very good" of creation right out of God's hand; not only that, the man acts self-destructively during the snatching.

The "good Adam" precept has a good man doing the action of an evil man, so that is not a good man.

The "good Adam" doctrine leads to a different god than revealed by the Word of God.

The "good Adam" precept grossly distorts good and evil. The "good Adam" precept is confusion in the knowledge of good and evil.

In conclusion, the supporters of the "good Adam" precept advocate for good people converting to evil people which is absent from the entirety of the scripture; on the other hand, the Word of God is replete with God converting evil people into good people in Christ.

Moreover, God is good, and God's Way is good. Man is evil, yet God works all things out for good for the man of God's Way.

In actuality, with God there is no plan B - God is mightier than that. God's plan for the Redemption of Mankind through the Christ succeeds and is victorious, and this is God's plan before the foundation of the world.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

BeyondET · Sep 18, 2022

Kermos said:
Did God's Plan A Fail - Forcing God To Spontaneously Develop Plan B?

According to the free will "good Adam" teaching, God had an original plan for Adam to live forever in the paradise on earth where Adam was made, and it is just termed the Good Plan until Adam ate the fruit.

I equate "spiritually alive", "upright", "perfect", "righteous" and the like with "good" for the purposes of this sidebar.

Advocating the "good Adam" precept advocates the concept of good people converting to evil people; in other words, a GOOD Adam conquering a GOOD command of God in order to convert to an EVIL Adam.

The "good Adam" precept goes with the GOOD God being surprised by the GOOD Adam destroying the GOOD God's GOOD Plan A of the GOOD Adam living forever in God's GOOD paradise, so the GOOD God in a panic abandoned the GOOD Plan A to develop a GOOD Plan B to expel the EVIL Adam from paradise into a CURSED land with the GOOD promise of a Redeemer. The GOOD Plan A stopped being GOOD Plan A, so that means GOOD Plan A converted to EVIL plan A since the GOOD Adam caused GOOD Plan A to error out.

So, the "good Adam" precept conveys that God unwittingly created everything only to have it catastrophically crumble right in front of God. By the hand of man taken away from God. With God at the mercy of man. Unmercy perhaps being a better word.

This means GOOD God produced an imperfect plan, formerly GOOD Plan A now EVIL plan A; in other words, the GOOD God's GOOD Plan A failed with a spiritually alive Adam lost to be spiritually dead; in other words , the "good Adam" precept has it that GOOD Adam thwarted GOOD God, so GOOD God was too small to preserve GOOD Plan A, so GOOD God converted to EVIL god (this is following to where the "good Adam" precept leads), and EVIL god was incapable of preserving a spiritually alive person.

See that the "good Adam" precept has man snatching the "very good" of creation right out of God's hand; not only that, the man acts self-destructively during the snatching.

The "good Adam" precept has a good man doing the action of an evil man, so that is not a good man.

The "good Adam" doctrine leads to a different god than revealed by the Word of God.

The "good Adam" precept grossly distorts good and evil. The "good Adam" precept is confusion in the knowledge of good and evil.

In conclusion, the supporters of the "good Adam" precept advocate for good people converting to evil people which is absent from the entirety of the scripture; on the other hand, the Word of God is replete with God converting evil people into good people in Christ.

Moreover, God is good, and God's Way is good. Man is evil, yet God works all things out for good for the man of God's Way.

In actuality, with God there is no plan B - God is mightier than that. God's plan for the Redemption of Mankind through the Christ succeeds and is victorious, and this is God's plan before the foundation of the world.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

That's all good and all but scripture doesn't say Adam and Eve was to live for ever in the physical and the universe is still around they could of been as well.

I'll ask again why did Adam blame Eve clearly he knew the prophecy

MatthewG · Sep 19, 2022

Kermos said:
No scripture in Genesis chapters 1 to 6, the creation account, state that mankind was imparted free will by God.

Is Matthew 23:37 your proof text for free will?

MatthewG, notice the last five words of Jesus in Matthew 23:37, "and you were not willing".

These words of Jesus express that man in man's fleshy, unsaved state opposes God.

There is nothing in Matthew 23:37 that states man has a free will to choose God.

On the other hand, the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Since I am uncertain whether you intended for Matthew 23:37 as a proof text, I inquire again.

MatthewG, name a verse that supports your heart's desire for human free will.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Regardless of these scriptures, I disagree...

Sorry, you can try to use Sola Scriptura, however Eve could have went and talked to God about the observer, and Adam could have went to God went Eve presented the fruit but neither one of them did...

They instead ate and then hid.

Taken · Sep 19, 2022

Kermos said:
@Enoch111 @Taken @Renniks @GISMYS_7 @Backlit @Riverwalker @BARNEY BRIGHT @TLHKAJ @HisLife @Ronald Nolette @post @Wynona @Iconoclast @CharismaticLady @MatthewG @Abaxvahl @BeyondET @n2thelight

As this post in this thread shows, God declares that Adam listened to the voice of his wife as the cause for Adam to eat of the tree (Genesis 3:17), and Paul conveyed that Adam did not willingly eat of the tree (Romans 8:20).

Gen 3:
[6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

[17] And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
[18] Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
[19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

As this post in this thread shows, the word "freewill" in "freewill offering" is an incorrect translation.

Preposterous!
The woman reached out her hand and FREELY TOOK the fruit & ate.
The woman offered out the fruit to her husband And Adam reached out his hand and FREELY TOOK the fruit & ate.

NO ONE Forced the Fruit IN the woman’s or the man’s HAND or MOUTH.

The man AND the woman EACH of their OWN WILL FREELY (without ANYTHING STOPPING THEM)
reached OUT, TOOK and ATE the fruit.

and Paul conveyed that Adam did not willingly eat of the tree (Romans 8:20).

Paul says NO SUCH THING!

Romans 8:
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope...

Paul’s TEACHING is about THE VANITY of the NATURAL MAN, Exercising HIS OWN FREEWILL OF CHOICES ...... OVER and ABOVE the WORD of God!
And “IF” you continued Studying PAUL’S Preaching; His PREACHING IS EXPRESSLY ABOUT HOW the natural man CAN USE HIS OWN FREE WILL, TO CHOOSE Gods SPIRITUAL WAY over and above MANS Natural Way, and the Highly Favorable RESULTS FOR A man!

Taken · Sep 19, 2022

Kermos said:
@Enoch111 @Taken @Renniks @GISMYS_7 @Backlit @Riverwalker @BARNEY BRIGHT @TLHKAJ @HisLife @Ronald Nolette @post @Wynona @Iconoclast @CharismaticLady @MatthewG @Abaxvahl @BeyondET @n2thelight

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

You set the Premise....”IMPARTED FREEWILL”...
Then DENY that was the case.

God CREATED mans FORM, from Dust of the Earth.
Gen 2:
[7a] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground...

God MADE that mans FORM, ALIVE, by “IMPARTING” Gods BREATH into the Creat-ED form.
Gen 2:
[7b] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A completely created FORM-ED manKIND of thing...OF DUST.
Receiving Gods BREATH IMPARTED INTO THE FORM...IS “MADE”
A LIVING SOUL...OF GOD.

The NATURAL formed DUST BODY is the mans.
ALL LIVING SOULS are Gods. (Ezek 18:4)

The NATURAL man LIFE is BLOOD. (Gen 9:5)
The NATURAL mans TRUTH, (spirit), is IN HIS NATURAL HEART.
The NATURAL mans Cognitive THOUGHTS are IN HIS Carnal MIND.
The NATURAL man CARNAL MIND “IS” naturally Against God. (Rom 8:7)

The NATURAL mans SEED reproduces BODY’s, Formed BY GOD.
The NATURAL man, has, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, skin...
The NATURAL man, WITH GODS BREATH OF LIFE....
Has; eyes that see
Has; ears that hear
Has; nose that smells
Has; tongue that tastes
Has; skin that feels touch

A natural BABE FORM-ING in the Womb of a Woman...
DOES NOT...see, hear, smell, taste or feel touch...
UNTIL IT COMPLETES IT FORMING, EXITS THE WOMB, IS SEVERED and INDEPENDENT, FROM ITS DEPENDENT LIFE LINE (the mother), AND RECEIVES Gods BREATH OF LIFE.
* Nothing new, exactly what was from the FIRST natural MALE and FEMALE......God CALLED ADAM. (Gen 5:2)

YOUR PREMISE IS; “God imparting Freewill”.

The FACT IS:
A NATURAL procreated man FROM a natural mans SEED,
HAS FREE WILL.
His CARNAL MIND, THINKS, DESIRES, WANTS, FREELY CHOOSES, TO DO, SAY, AS HE Decides.

God SAID, Eat from every tree in the Garden, with ONE exception. The DAY you eat from THIS TREE....YOU SHALL DIE.

AFTER 6,000 YEARS OF Historical Scriptural KNOWLEDGE; A man should have LEARNED...

“YOU SHALL DIE MEANS A SEPARATION FROM GOD”.

Both the male and female: from the THOUGHTS of their natural Carnal Mind.....FREELY CHOSE to EAT.

* God SEPARATED the male and female FROM God, FROM Gods Garden...!

Gen 3:
[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden..
[24] So he drove out the man...

No, I do not subscribe to YOUR premise....”Imparted Freewill”.
I do subscribe to Gods Creating and Making...
God Creates a FORMED man.
God Imparts a SOUL into the Form-ED man.

The man CAN Freely CHOOSE to DO according to the WILL of his Carnal MINDS thoughts or the WILL of his Hearts spirits thoughts.

Even a baby, can drop his bottle without intent, or freely Choose to throw his bottle with intent.

Adam and Eve BOTH freely Chose to Eat.

And then you can TURN to and LEARN more of Gods TRUTH:

Ex 19:
[3] And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
[4] Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
[5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
[6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[7] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
[8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Nothing NEW...
Men HEAR, Men exercise their FREE WILL to Choose, Men Declare their FREE WILLED CHOICE....DONE DEAL.

Men WHO DECLARE, and FAIL to KEEP THEIR FREELY DECLARED WORD, suffer GODS NEGATIVE Consequences.

Nothing NEW...
Josh 24:
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;

Nothing NEW...
Revelations:
* CHOOSE YOUR MASTER.
* SERVE YOUR MASTER GOD, and suffer NO Wrath.
* SERVE YOUR MASTER SATAN, and suffer the Wrath of God.

Your teaching of man having no free will is preposterous.

Taken · Sep 19, 2022

Kermos said:
@Enoch111 @Taken @Renniks @GISMYS_7 @Backlit @Riverwalker @BARNEY BRIGHT @TLHKAJ @HisLife @Ronald Nolette @post @Wynona @Iconoclast @CharismaticLady @MatthewG @Abaxvahl @BeyondET @n2thelight

As this post in this thread shows, the word "freewill" in "freewill offering" is an incorrect translation.

As this post in this thread shows, the words and surrounding context of Joshua 24:15 indicates inability for people to choose to serve God.

1 Thes 1:
[4] ...your election of God.

AND...FYI...God is not a Political Democrat who CHANGES A mans FREE WILL ELECTION of God.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Sep 19, 2022

Kermos said:
@Enoch111 @Taken @Renniks @GISMYS_7 @Backlit @Riverwalker @BARNEY BRIGHT @TLHKAJ @HisLife @Ronald Nolette @post @Wynona @Iconoclast @CharismaticLady @MatthewG @Abaxvahl @BeyondET @n2thelight

Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

Click to expand...

OP^

Regarding the Creation of manKIND;

ManKIND was CREATED with Freewill.
ManKIND was IMPARTED with a Soul.
The Soul Activated the LIFE of the man,
Effecting the mans ABILITY to Freely MAKE Choices according to the mans own will.

The First Created and Made, MALE and FEMALE God called ADAM.

ADAM, made choices of his OWN WILL...
To walk about the Garden.
To choose names for the animals.
To pick and choose what to eat.
To hide from God.
To answer God.
To choose to Not pick from the tree of life AND Eat, EVEN as he was being escorted out of Gods Garden.

Gen 3:
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

farouk · Sep 19, 2022

Taken said:
You set the Premise....”IMPARTED FREEWILL”...
Then DENY that was the case.

God CREATED mans FORM, from Dust of the Earth.
Gen 2:
[7a] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground...

God MADE that mans FORM, ALIVE, by “IMPARTING” Gods BREATH into the Creat-ED form.
Gen 2:
[7b] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A completely created FORM-ED manKIND of thing...OF DUST.
Receiving Gods BREATH IMPARTED INTO THE FORM...IS “MADE”
A LIVING SOUL...OF GOD.

The NATURAL formed DUST BODY is the mans.
ALL LIVING SOULS are Gods. (Ezek 18:4)

The NATURAL man LIFE is BLOOD. (Gen 9:5)
The NATURAL mans TRUTH, (spirit), is IN HIS NATURAL HEART.
The NATURAL mans Cognitive THOUGHTS are IN HIS Carnal MIND.
The NATURAL man CARNAL MIND “IS” naturally Against God. (Rom 8:7)

The NATURAL mans SEED reproduces BODY’s, Formed BY GOD.
The NATURAL man, has, eyes, ears, nose, tongue, skin...
The NATURAL man, WITH GODS BREATH OF LIFE....
Has; eyes that see
Has; ears that hear
Has; nose that smells
Has; tongue that tastes
Has; skin that feels touch

A natural BABE FORM-ING in the Womb of a Woman...
DOES NOT...see, hear, smell, taste or feel touch...
UNTIL IT COMPLETES IT FORMING, EXITS THE WOMB, IS SEVERED and INDEPENDENT, FROM ITS DEPENDENT LIFE LINE (the mother), AND RECEIVES Gods BREATH OF LIFE.
* Nothing new, exactly what was from the FIRST natural MALE and FEMALE......God CALLED ADAM. (Gen 5:2)

YOUR PREMISE IS; “God imparting Freewill”.

The FACT IS:
A NATURAL procreated man FROM a natural mans SEED,
HAS FREE WILL.
His CARNAL MIND, THINKS, DESIRES, WANTS, FREELY CHOOSES, TO DO, SAY, AS HE Decides.

God SAID, Eat from every tree in the Garden, with ONE exception. The DAY you eat from THIS TREE....YOU SHALL DIE.

AFTER 6,000 YEARS OF Historical Scriptural KNOWLEDGE; A man should have LEARNED...

“YOU SHALL DIE MEANS A SEPARATION FROM GOD”.

Both the male and female: from the THOUGHTS of their natural Carnal Mind.....FREELY CHOSE to EAT.

* God SEPARATED the male and female FROM God, FROM Gods Garden...!

Gen 3:
[23] Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden..
[24] So he drove out the man...

No, I do not subscribe to YOUR premise....”Imparted Freewill”.
I do subscribe to Gods Creating and Making...
God Creates a FORMED man.
God Imparts a SOUL into the Form-ED man.

The man CAN Freely CHOOSE to DO according to the WILL of his Carnal MINDS thoughts or the WILL of his Hearts spirits thoughts.

Even a baby, can drop his bottle without intent, or freely Choose to throw his bottle with intent.

Adam and Eve BOTH freely Chose to Eat.

And then you can TURN to and LEARN more of Gods TRUTH:

Ex 19:
[3] And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
[4] Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
[5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
[6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
[7] And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
[8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Nothing NEW...
Men HEAR, Men exercise their FREE WILL to Choose, Men Declare their FREE WILLED CHOICE....DONE DEAL.

Men WHO DECLARE, and FAIL to KEEP THEIR FREELY DECLARED WORD, suffer GODS NEGATIVE Consequences.

Nothing NEW...
Josh 24:
[15] And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;

Nothing NEW...
Revelations:
* CHOOSE YOUR MASTER.
* SERVE YOUR MASTER GOD, and suffer NO Wrath.
* SERVE YOUR MASTER SATAN, and suffer the Wrath of God.

Your teaching of man having no free will is preposterous.

Hi @Taken I think it can be said that one's will is truly free once one has been 'quickened' - made alive (Ephesians 2), after having been 'dead in trespasses and sins'.

farouk · Sep 19, 2022

(PS: @Taken Congrats. on your 20,000 posts, BTW............

)

Taken · Sep 19, 2022

farouk said:
Hi @Taken I think it can be said that one's will is truly free once one has been 'quickened' - made alive (Ephesians 2), after having been 'dead in trespasses and sins'.

Yes. You come full circle with your Point as to the glory God has Promised to those that Are His inheritance.

God Bless,
Taken

Taken · Sep 19, 2022

farouk said:
(PS: @Taken Congrats. on your 20,000 posts, BTW............ )

Thanks. Is there a prize, like a milk-shake? I could be diggin a big, tall chocolate milk-shake....

Kermos · Sep 19, 2022

BeyondET said:
That's all good and all but scripture doesn't say Adam and Eve was to live for ever in the physical and the universe is still around they could of been as well.
I'll ask again why did Adam blame Eve clearly he knew the prophecy

Why don't you ask Adam - oh, wait, you can't; moreover, you should read the Bible for the Bible tells of the selfishness of fleshly man such as Adam.

The Word of God does give the CAUSE of Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God Declares The Cause And Effect For Adam Eating Of The Forbidden Tree

After Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), to Adam, God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19)

The word "because" inherently indicates cause in (Genesis 3:17), and the word "because" is the first word that God said to Adam in Genesis 3:17-19.

God declares the cause as being that Adam listened to the voice of his wife.

God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17 (This sidebar examines Paul's writing in Romans 8:20-22 as related to the creation account in Genesis chapters 1 to 3).

God declares the effect as being that the ground would be cursed because of Adam as well as to dust Adam would return.

BEHOLD, THE CAUSE IS NOT FREE-WILL.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

BeyondET · Sep 19, 2022

Kermos said:
Why don't you ask Adam - oh, wait, you can't; moreover, you should read the Bible for the Bible tells of the selfishness of fleshly man such as Adam.

The Word of God does give the CAUSE of Adam eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God Declares The Cause And Effect For Adam Eating Of The Forbidden Tree

After Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6), to Adam, God said "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." (Genesis 3:17-19)

The word "because" inherently indicates cause in (Genesis 3:17), and the word "because" is the first word that God said to Adam in Genesis 3:17-19.

God declares the cause as being that Adam listened to the voice of his wife.

God LITERALLY stated that the CAUSE was Adam LISTENED to Adam's wife's voice; moveover, free will choice is NOT included as a CAUSE; therefore, the Apostle Paul's conveyance that Adam "not willingly" ate of the tree (Romans 8:20) is in accord with the recorded Word of God in Genesis 3:17 (This sidebar examines Paul's writing in Romans 8:20-22 as related to the creation account in Genesis chapters 1 to 3).

God declares the effect as being that the ground would be cursed because of Adam as well as to dust Adam would return.

BEHOLD, THE CAUSE IS NOT FREE-WILL.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

You said it selfish, that's all about choosing to listen to another and not God, thus Adam self will was free to choose to listen, God didn't stop Adam from doing it listening.

Is there something in your life that you don't want to own up too? are you adamant about not blaming your own free will?

Kermos · Sep 19, 2022

MatthewG said:
Regardless of these scriptures, I disagree...

Sorry, you can try to use Sola Scriptura, however Eve could have went and talked to God about the observer, and Adam could have went to God went Eve presented the fruit but neither one of them did...

They instead ate and then hid.

Whoa, wait, MatthewG, when you wrote that you disagree with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Jesus, John 15:16), then you convey that you disagree with Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the Christ in Christian.

By the way, your postulates about Adam and Eve did NOT happen, so your postulates are not proof texts because it's not found in history.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

BARNEY BRIGHT · Sep 20, 2022

Adam and Eve were made in God’s image, according to His likeness, man is a free moral agent, which means all human beings have this free will. Human beings have the freedom of choice to do good or bad. By human beings willingly, lovingly obeying their Creator, they are in a position to bring honor and glory to God far beyond that which the animal creation could bring. Human beings can intelligently praise God for His wonderful qualities and could support His sovereignty. But human beings freedom is a relative freedom; it's not absolute. Human beings could continue to live in happiness only if they acknowledged YHWH God(Jehovah) sovereignty. This was indicated by the tree of knowledge of good and bad, from which Adam was forbidden to eat. Eating of it would be an act of disobedience, a rebellion against God’s sovereignty.(Genesis 2:9, 16, 17)

Since Adam was a “son of God” (Luke 3:38), his relationship to God was that of a son to a father, and he should have obeyed accordingly. Additionally, God created in man an innate desire to render worship. This desire, if perverted, would take man in the wrong direction and would destroy his freedom, bringing him into bondage to what was created instead of to the Creator. This, in turn, would result in man’s degradation.

A rebellious spirit son of God caused Adam’s wife Eve to sin, and she placed the temptation before Adam, who deliberately entered into rebellion against YHWH God (Jehovah) (Genesis 3:1-6; 1Timothy 2:13, 14) They became like those whom Paul later described in Romans 1:20-23. By his transgression Adam lost his sonship and perfection and he introduced sin, with imperfection and death, to his offspring, the entire human race. Even at birth, they were in the image of their father Adam, imperfect, with death working in their bodies.(Genesis 3:17-19; Romans 5:12)

When creating the first human, Adam, God gave him the same gift he had given his intelligent creatures in heaven, the gift of free will. This set Adam apart from the animals, since they live according to instinct. Consider an example of how Adam used his free will in an appropriate way. Animals were created before man. However, YHWH God(Jehovah) reserved the joy of naming those creatures for his first human son. God “began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one.” After Adam observed each animal and assigned it a suitable name, YHWH God(Jehovah) did not step in and override Adam’s choices. Rather, “whatever the man would call each living creature, that became its name.”(Genesis 2:19)

Regrettably, Adam was not content with his God-given assignment as cultivator and caretaker of the earthly paradise. He was not satisfied with his extensive freedom to carry out his God-given mandate: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish . . . , the flying creatures . . . , and every living creature that is moving on the earth.” (Genesis 1:28) Instead, he chose to overstep his God-ordained boundaries by eating the forbidden fruit. This gross misuse of free will resulted in millenniums of suffering and pain for Adam’s descendants. (Romans 5:12) Knowing the consequences of Adam’s decision should move us to use our freedom responsibly and within the limits set by YHWH God(Jehovah)

So human beings were by no means preprogrammed to please God, like some sort of robot. Think about it. Which would mean more to you, a gift that is given mechanically or one that comes from the heart? The answer is obvious. Likewise, if Adam and Eve had freely chosen to obey God, their obedience would have meant all the more to him. The capacity to choose enabled the first human pair to obey YHWH God(Jehovah) out of love.(Deuteronomy 30:19, 20)

So the first human couple differed from all other creations on earth. They resembled their Creator, able to reflect a godlike attitude in reasoning, in demonstrating love, justice, wisdom, and power. They had the faculty of conscience to help them reach decisions that would benefit themselves and please their heavenly Parent. (Romans 2:15) In short, Adam and Eve had free will. Observing the makeup of his earthly human couple YHWH God (Jehovah) made this assessment of his handiwork: “Look! it [is] very good.”(Genesis 1:31; Psalm 95:6)

No one will convince me that all our thoughts and actions are dictated to us without ever having a choice in anything. However this gift of free will isn't be used without limits. In directions given to early Christians, God’s Word tells us: “Be as free people, and yet holding your freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God.” (1 Peter 2:16) For the common good, there must be boundaries. So free will is to be regulated by the rule of law. Otherwise, anarchy would result.

Since God created humans, he knows best what laws they need to obey for their own good and for the good of others. The Bible puts it this way: “I, YHWH(Jehovah), am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself, the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk.”(Isaiah 48:17)

Clearly, a vital point is this: Humans were not created to be independent of God. He made them in such a way that their success and happiness depend on obedience to his righteous laws. God’s prophet Jeremiah said: “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”(Jeremiah 10:23)

God made mankind subject to his physical laws, such as the law of gravity. Similarly, he made humans to be subject to his moral laws, which are designed to result in a harmonious society. For good reason, then, God’s Word urges: “Trust in YHWH(Jehovah) with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.”(Proverbs 3:5)

So the human family could never be successful in regulating itself without God’s rulership. Trying to be independent from him, people would devise social, economic, political, and religious systems that would conflict with one another, and ‘man would dominate man to his injury.’(Ecclesiastes 8:9)

God gave our first parents, Adam and Eve, a perfect start. They had perfect bodies and minds and a paradise garden for a home. If they had submitted to God’s rule, they would have remained perfect and happy. In time, they would have been the parents of an entire perfect, happy human family living on a paradise earth. That was God’s purpose for the human race.(Genesis 1:27-29; 2:15)

When the first human couple misused their free will they wrongly thought that they could be successful independent of God. Of their own free will, they stepped outside the boundaries of his laws. (Genesis, chapter 3) Because they rejected his rulership, he no longer was obligated to sustain them in perfection. ‘They acted ruinously on their own part, did not remain his children, and the defect was their own.’(Deuteronomy 32:5)

From the time they disobeyed God, Adam and Eve began to degenerate in body and mind. With YHWH(Jehovah) is the source of life. (Psalm 36:9) So because of cutting themselves off from YHWH(Jehovah) the first human couple became imperfect and eventually died. (Genesis 3:19) Consistent with laws of genetic inheritance, their offspring could receive only what their parents themselves possessed. And what was that? It was imperfection and death. The apostle Paul therefore wrote: “Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”(Romans 5:12)

BARNEY BRIGHT · Sep 20, 2022

Kermos said,
According to your own measure (Matthew 7:2), BARNEY BRIGHT, you used Philippians 2:3-6 out of context because you restricted the context to "Paul was telling the members in the Philippian congregation to be humble and think others in the Philippian congregation were superior to them" (your scribe in the "Jesus is God" thread).[/QUOTE\]

God using his Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write at Philippians 2:3-6. First Paul tells the Philippian members of the Philippian congregation at verses 3&4 "Do nothing out of contentiousness or out of egotism, but with humility consider others superior to you, as you look out not only for your own interests, but also for the interests of others."
Here the apostle Paul is clearly telling the members of the Philippian congregation to consider others in the congregation as superior to them. In other words I, as a Christian, am to have this mental attitude that another Christian is superior to me and that Christian is to have the mental attitude that I am superior to him/her. With this kind of geniune mental attitude going on within the congregation then there would be no disagreements or arguments in the congregation, there would not be those who would be prideful there would be no braggarts in the congregation.

Then at verse 5 Paul writes, "Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus."
So here in verse five the apostle Paul is directing the Philippian congregation members to have the same mental attitude that was in Jesus Christ. So tell me kermos, this mental attitude that the Philippian congregation members was to be in them which was also in Christ Jesus, was it suppose to be a mental attitude that congregation members were to think themselves to be equal to God? I don't think so!

Paul then writes Philippians 2:6, "who, although he was existing in God’s form, did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God." Jesus Christ mental attitude wasn't that he thought himself equal to God, but that even though he was in God's form he never considered himself equal to God. That humble attitude which Jesus Christ has, that he thought God as superior to him is the mental attitude he had. Jesus Christ is the greatest example of humility and we are to follow that great example of humility.

You can call me whatever you want kermos. I know that the Trinitarians trying to prove by using Philippians 2:6 that Jesus is equal to God isn't true. Philippians 2:6 isn't saying Jesus Christ thought himself equal with God, but instead Jesus Christ thought God superior to him.

MatthewG · Sep 20, 2022

Kermos said:
Whoa, wait, MatthewG, when you wrote that you disagree with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Jesus, John 15:16), then you convey that you disagree with Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the Christ in Christian.

By the way, your postulates about Adam and Eve did NOT happen, so your postulates are not proof texts because it's not found in history.

Still, no free will written in the creation account (Genesis 1:1-31 Genesis 2:1- 25 Genesis 3:1-24), with Paul in accord for he conveyed that Adam “not willingly” subjected creation to futility by eating of the tree forbidden for eating since Paul included all time prior to Paul’s birth by his writing “until now” (Romans 8:20-22).

“YHWH is righteous in all his ways and holy in all his works” (Psalm 145:17).

THE ALL KNOWING GOD (JOHN 16:30) GETS EXCLUSIVE CREDIT AND GLORY FOR MAN’S SALVATION (JOHN 3:3-8), AND MAN DOES NOTHING - NOT EVEN A CHOICE (JOHN 15:16).

The Redemption of Mankind through the Christ is certain, even before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:1-14).

"What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do" (Isaiah 46:11).

No purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Everything has a context and narrative. The conversation is now over between me and you sir.

Ronald David Bruno · Sep 20, 2022

Kermos said:
Was Adam imparted free will from the beginning of Creation?

The Word of God indicates no based upon both scriptural text and context.

The following is carefully presented proof establishing Adam was formed with intent not endowed with free will.

God issued prophecy about man eating the fruit (Genesis 2:17)
AT the time God commanded the man, Adam, not to eat of the tree
AND the consequence of disobedience is declared - that is that death of the man would result in eating from the tree
YET a command does not convey ability (see also God's Commands Distinguised From Man's Ability)
BUT the language contains a prophetic construct indicating assurance of occurrence - "for in the day that you eat" - the "for" is promissory
NOT a conditional logic construct such as "if in the day that you eat"
IN fact, the English word "for" is translated from the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki)
AND the Hebrew word כִּ֗י (ki) contains the meanings of these English words "that", "for", "when" (Strong's Hebrew: 3588. כִּ֗י (ki) -- that, for, when)
THEREFORE the word "when" fits where the word "for" resides in Genesis 2:17
THUS the phrase "when in the day that you eat" is an accurate translation for Genesis 2:17
SO this confirms the promissory nature, the prophecy of man eating the fruit, with the word "for"/"when" in Genesis 2:17
AND this imposes contextual certainty indicating God's foreknowledge over the matter described in Genesis 2:17
SO there is no free will indicated for Adam
AND the firm fact is established
THAT God reigns in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)

Attributes/Characteristics Compared And Contrasted

Examining attribute as relating to the purported facility of free will in Adam
WITH a targeted result of logical deductive reasoning leveraging compare and contrast of attributes/facilities
SINCE Adam was made in the image according to the likeness of God (Genesis 1:26)
THEN some persons of the creation (creatures) argue that specific facility was given to Adam
IN particular God willpowering purported free will into man during the creation of Adam
THEN Adam could not have used free will to perform evil against God
BECAUSE God will not use willpower in order to perform evil against God's self (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 92:15, Deuteronomy 32:4)
THEREFORE it follows that Man could not use free will in order to perform evil against God

The logical extension of free will on this basis results in man possessing expanded facilities beyond God's facilities

God is Creator; on the other hand, man is creature

Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture does not include the mention of endowing Adam with free will

Man's free will is a precept of man (Matthew 15:9)

Adam as part of God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind before the foundation of the world
SINCE God saw creation was very good on the 6th Day (Genesis 1:31)
AND God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14,Ephesians 2:13)
THEN a free will Adam could not have been roaming the Garden of Eden with the ability to choose to obey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17) ...

Very analytical. I agree jn part except that God's plan was not interupted.
I'll put it more simply. Man does not have free will. If it was free than he could do anything he wanted without judgment and penalties.
We are either a slave to God or a slave to Satan. Furthermore if we were free, there would be no death, but the"wages of sin is death".

God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden because the only way man can understand and appreciate what good is, is to experience and know evil. He also put Satan in there to tempt them. I really don't think the Garden was the perfect and safe place with Satan roaming around and the possibility of death due to one bite of fruit. We needed to know evil, it was part of His plan.
The freedom Adam did have was to live, love and eat of any other food but the one forbidden. He was free to give names to all the animals and botanicals, free to be fruitful and multiply.
So we are somewhat free to experience both good and evil - but with consequences. God has rules/ laws. If there weren't any, then we would be totally free.
So the "free will" concept is kind of prideful and arrogant and those who hold it are self deceived and in a sense, holding onto to a rebellious nature. "I have the power to do this and that ... and even choose God if I want!" Or "I am the ruler of my destiny, sitting on my throne ... and do not need anyone above me ... but maybe later in life I'll consider this God above ... but for now I am free!" Foolish pride is the fundamental character flaw that leads us towards a failure in some way. If this pride is never broken, and God isn't realized in our life, then death will be the result. God chooses us. He calls us, guides us, enlightens us and enables us to believe. Faith is a gift, it is not conjured up by our own will. And it comes by the Word.
By grace you have been saved through faith, it is a gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. That is the point, these "free will" thinking folks that think they chose God are in a sense boasting. Salvation is a gift.

Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

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