Was Adam Imparted Free Will From The Beginning Of Creation?

[Kermos]

Here are some early Church Fathers who disagree with you. Speaking of Ignatius, he might have been taught by Peter and Paul. He became Bishop of Antioch in 60 AD.

Ignatius (AD30-107)
"Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God’s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life. For I remark, that two different characters are found among men - the one true coin, the other spurious. The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself. The ungodly man, again, is false coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil. I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is one humanity, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil. If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice. The unbelieving bear the image of the prince of wickedness. The believing possess the image of their Prince, God the Father, and Jesus Christ, through whom, if we are not in readiness to die for the truth into His passion, His life is not in us."
(Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, V)


This expression of our Lord, “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not” (Matthew 23:37), ...snip... kindly bestow on them what was good. St. Iranaeus, Against the Heresies, IV, 37, I [/I]


Barnabas (AD100)
"The Lord will judge the world without respect of persons. Each will receive as he has done: if he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him; if he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called [of God], we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, should thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. And all the more attend to this, my brethren, when ye reflect and behold, that after so great signs and wonders were wrought in Israel, they were thus [at length] abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found [fulfilling that saying], as it is written, “Many are called, but few are chosen.” (Epistle of Barnabas, IV)


Justin Martyr (AD 110-165)
"But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made." (Justin, First Apology, XLIII)

What you are doing is like using the fabric to measure the yardstick. In case you are unfamiliar with this terminology, the yardstick represents the standard of measure, and the fabric represents the commodity to be divided into fair increments of pieces (Proverbs 11:1) - properly the yardstick is used to measure a distance of the fabric.

Your opening ignominious Ignatius quotation requires scrutiny, but more on this further in this post.

The Apostle John warns:

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
(1 John 4:1-3)
​

See "antichrist" "already in the world" at the time of John, so everything must be seen by believers through God given eyes (John 3:3-8, John 3:21).

The Truth (John 14:6) is the Word of God, and the Christ's words reverberate these 2,000 years for Lord Jesus says:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Christ's words define Christianity, even every moment of the 2,000 years you mentioned.

Man's words/commentaries are not the Bible.

Let's compare your unbiblical words of

So, all believers are but by choice. This context is NOT about future believers, but speaking directly to twelve men ONLY.

to the Word of God, bullet point with red text above by bullet point with blue text below:

• "you twelve men ONLY did not choose Me, but I chose you twelve men ONLY" (the word of Rightglory).
• "I chose you twelve men ONLY out of the world" (the word of Rightglory).
• "What I say to you I say to all" (the word of Rightglory).

The treasure of your heart (Matthew 15:18) is consistent with your deficient interpretation of ancient commentary instead of the Word of God, so you agree with your foundation of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9). As for my house, our foundation is the Word of God (John 1:1-5) in us by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

Plenty of ancient commentary exists that declares God is sovereign in the salvation of man, even among your deficiently quoted text above, but you are blind to the Word of God and you adulterate the Word of God, so it is no surprise that you adulterate ancient commentary (see en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Christian_Library/Epistle_to_the_Magnesians for a side by side comparison of the translation from the text tbat we have of Ignatius' letter according to historians (the shorter recension) versus the modern edited by another person(s)/editor(s) (the longer recension) and search for "Seeing, then, all" to properly compare ancient text - ESSENTIALLY, YOU TOOK A MODERN COPY THAT AGREES WITH YOUR OWN THOUGHTS INSTEAD OF THAT WHICH IGNATIUS WROTE - see that Ignatius did not use the word "choice" nor hint at "choice" in the shorter recension - in effect, you lied by causing Ignatius to lie - you even used a fabricated letter from Ignatius to try to prove your point - the devil is the father of lies (John 8:44) - your false witness letter is wrong glory @Rightglory, very wrong glory as you use your false witness against Ignatius as support for your false witness against the Word of God).

Even a little leaven (deviation from the Word of God) leavens the whole loaf (the person adhering to the deviation from the Word of God) (Galatians 5:7-9), and your blue text deviates from Jesus Christ's red text!

Anyone who says that he chose Jesus has opposed Jesus by uttering such a rejectful saying, as evidenced in Jesus' words. Such a person is a thief that steals God's glory in the salvation of man. Such a person thinks he saved himself from the wrath of God because his failure to choose Jesus would have left him unsaved.

All believers in all time are utterly dependent upon the Word of God for being saved from the wrath of God by God's grace for God's glory!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

In a positive way, thank you.

Please describe the positive way the information affected you in greater detail.

In the meantime, here's the information.

How clearer can I get, yes I have free will to shop what ever food I want in the grocery store, freely decide what kind of clothes to wear.

You emphatically declared your personal free will in your post, so your will is autonomous from God's will because your will is free (detached, disassociated, separate, unencumbered, disentangled, not dependent, not obligated, not indebted) with regard to God.

You convey that you control your will yourself.

See the word "self" in the word "yourself", so, in effect, you cast yourself as self-willed. Now, see the word "self" in the subsequent Apostle's quoted declaration as well as how the Apostle uses the word "self":

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

See that "self-willed" people "under punishment for the day of judgment" according to Peter's Apostolic testimony.

Lord Jesus poses a rhetorical question which self-contains an answer "why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57); and since choosing Right, that is Jesus, is the right thing to do according to free-willian philosophy, then Jesus says choosing Right cannot be done by people right there.

Either you believe Apostolic testimony, or you don't.

By the way, my loving God expresses His value and interest in the intimate details of my life for He says "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30) and "Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33).

But, in effect, you cast yourself as not of value to God; furthermore, you say God is not interested in you. Just look at what you wrote about shopping/eating and clothing in contrast to the Lord's sayings about eating and clothing.

We Christians, our will, is governed and controlled and bound to God for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[BeyondET]

Please describe the positive way the information affected you in greater detail.

In the meantime, here's the information.



You emphatically declared your personal free will in your post, so your will is autonomous from God's will because your will is free (detached, disassociated, separate, unencumbered, disentangled, not dependent, not obligated, not indebted) with regard to God.

You convey that you control your will yourself.

See the word "self" in the word "yourself", so, in effect, you cast yourself as self-willed. Now, see the word "self" in the subsequent Apostle's quoted declaration as well as how the Apostle uses the word "self":

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

See that "self-willed" people "under punishment for the day of judgment" according to Peter's Apostolic testimony.

Lord Jesus poses a rhetorical question which self-contains an answer "why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57); and since choosing Right, that is Jesus, is the right thing to do according to free-willian philosophy, then Jesus says choosing Right cannot be done by people right there.

Either you believe Apostolic testimony, or you don't.

By the way, my loving God expresses His value and interest in the intimate details of my life for He says "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30) and "Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33).

But, in effect, you cast yourself as not of value to God; furthermore, you say God is not interested in you. Just look at what you wrote about shopping/eating and clothing in contrast to the Lord's sayings about eating and clothing.

We Christians, our will, is governed and controlled and bound to God for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Well that God doesn't keep pushing will on others, some go and check out the city.

 

[Kermos]

Well that God doesn't keep pushing will on others, some go and check out the city.

I recall Lot's wife turned to "check out the city", and she suffered punishment (Genesis 19:26).

On the other hand, God faithfully controls the will of us chosen children of God for it is written "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

There are only 2 groups, BeyondET. Persons in group 1 have a will bound to God (Philippians 2:13), yet persons in group 2 are self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10). According to scripture, there is no other group, so which group are you?

In the meantime, here's some information on how self-willed persons are enamored with daringly claiming be in control of God by such persons choosing Jesus unto salvation (2 Peter 2:9-10).

How clearer can I get, yes I have free will to shop what ever food I want in the grocery store, freely decide what kind of clothes to wear.

You emphatically declared your personal free will in your post, so your will is autonomous from God's will because your will is free (detached, disassociated, separate, unencumbered, disentangled, not dependent, not obligated, not indebted) with regard to God.

You convey that you control your will yourself.

See the word "self" in the word "yourself", so, in effect, you cast yourself as self-willed. Now, see the word "self" in the subsequent Apostle's quoted declaration as well as how the Apostle uses the word "self":

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-10).

See that "self-willed" people "under punishment for the day of judgment" according to Peter's Apostolic testimony.

Lord Jesus poses a rhetorical question which self-contains an answer "why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?" (Luke 12:57); and since choosing Right, that is Jesus, is the right thing to do according to free-willian philosophy, then Jesus says choosing Right cannot be done by people right there.

Either you believe Apostolic testimony, or you don't.

By the way, my loving God expresses His value and interest in the intimate details of my life for He says "the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:30) and "Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you" (Matthew 6:31-33).

But, in effect, you cast yourself as not of value to God; furthermore, you say God is not interested in you. Just look at what you wrote about shopping/eating and clothing in contrast to the Lord's sayings about eating and clothing.

We Christians, our will, is governed and controlled and bound to God for the Apostle Paul wrote "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).

God exclusively chooses persons unto salvation and persons do absolutely nothing unto salvation, not even choosing Jesus, for thus says the Word of God:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[brightfame52]

BW

Here we go again, people trying to prove that God commanded Adam to do something that was impossible for him to obey and that sin and death was part of God's purpose.

Which is True. It was impossible for Adam to keep Gods law perfectly, and sin was part of Gods Purpose because Salvation from sin and death was of His Purpose 2 Tim 1:9-10

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

 

[Kermos]

BW

Which is True. It was impossible for Adam to keep Gods law perfectly, and sin was part of Gods Purpose because Salvation from sin and death was of His Purpose 2 Tim 1:9-10

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

PRAISE BE TO THE LORD! ALL GLORY TO THE GOD MOST HIGH FOR MAN'S DELIVERER AND DELIVERANCE! BY GOD'S GRACE FOR GOD'S GLORY!

Thanks for posting. I didn't get an alert for your post, just there, but I should have.

 

[Kermos]

I live in South Africa brother, wars on every side, and yes, we are in the last days.

As to Reformed Theology, eat the chicken, spit out the sticks, but I would like to hear about the substantial issues, if you have time.

Shalom
J.

This is hardcore Reformed doctrines @Kermos so don't be too harsh on those that are disagreeing with you.

No one here wants to ADULTERATE the scriptures on purpose.
Of Free Will
1.God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor by any absolute
necessity of nature determined to good or evil.

Matt. 17:12. James 1:14. Deut. 30:19.

2.Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good, and
well pleasing to God;
but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.

Eccles. 7:29. Gen. 1:26.
Gen. 2:16–17. Gen. 3:6.

3.Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good
accompanying salvation:
so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,
and dead in
sin,
is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.



Rom. 5:6. Rom. 8:7. John 15:5.
Rom. 3:10,12.
Eph. 2:1,5. Col. 2:13.

John 6:44,65. Eph. 2:2–5. 1 Cor. 2:14. Titus 3:3–5.


4.When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural
bondage under sin;
and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is
spiritually good;
yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only,
will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.


h Col. 1:13. John 8:34,36.
Phil. 2:13. Rom. 6:18,22.
Gal. 5:17. Rom. 7:15,18–19, 21, 23.

5.The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

l Eph. 4:13. Heb. 12:23. 1 John 3:2. Jude 24.

Am I unable to make choices, for good, and for evil, as a born again Christian?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

For it is God which worketh. The great hope and encouragement to the believer is that he is not left
to himself, but is energized to obey by God. to will and to do. God works in His children the willing and
the doing of His good pleasure. It is the responsibility of the believer to obey God. And God graciously
works in and empowers the believer to obey Him. While we are active in sanctification, it is God’s
work.

For it is God which worketh in you,.... Which is both an encouragement to persons conscious of their own weakness to work, as before exhorted to; see Hag_2:4; and a reason and argument for humility and meekness, and against pride and vain glory, since all we have, and do, is from God; and also points out the spring, principle, and foundation of all good works; namely, the grace of God wrought in the heart, which is an internal work, and purely the work of God: by this men become the workmanship of God, created unto good works, Eph_2:10, and are new men, and fitted for the performance of acts of righteousness, and true holiness; and this grace, which God works in them, is wrought in a powerful and efficacious manner, so as not to be frustrated and made void.

The word here used signifies an inward, powerful, and efficacious operation; and the "king's manuscript", mentioned by Grotius and Hammond, adds another word to it, which makes the sense still stronger, reading it thus, "which worketh in you", δυναμει, "by power"; not by moral persuasion, but by his own power, the power of his efficacious grace. The Alexandrian copy reads, δυναμεις, "powers", or "mighty works": God works in his people
both to will and to do of his good pleasure; God works in converted men a will to that which is spiritually good; which is to be understood, not of the formation of the natural faculty of the will; or of the preservation of it, and its natural liberty; or of the general motion of it to natural objects; nor of his influence on it in a providential way; but of the making of it good, and causing a willingness in it to that which is spiritually good.

Men have no will naturally to come to Christ, or to have him to reign over them; they have no desire, nor hungerings and thirstings after his righteousness and salvation; wherever there are any such inclinations and desires, they are wrought in men by God; who works upon the stubborn and inflexible will, and, without any force to it, makes the soul willing to be saved by Christ, and submit to his righteousness, and do his will; he sweetly and powerfully draws it with the cords of love to himself, and to his Son, and so influences it by his grace and spirit, and which he continues, that it freely wills everything spiritually good, and for the glory of God: and he works in them also to "do"; for there is sometimes in believers a will, when there wants a power of doing.

God therefore both implants in them principles of action to work from, as faith and love, and a regard for his glory, and gives them grace and strength to work with, without which they can do nothing, but having these, can do all things: and all this is "of his good pleasure";

the word "his" not being in the original text, some have taken the liberty to ascribe this to the will of man; and so the Syriac version renders it, "both to will and to do that", דצבין אנתון, "which ye will", or according to your good will; but such a sense is both bad and senseless; for if they have a good will of themselves, what occasion is there for God to work one in them?

no; these internal operations of divine power and grace are not owing to the will of men, nor to any merits of theirs, or are what God is obliged to do, but what flow from his sovereign will and pleasure; who works when, where, and as he pleases, and that for his own glory; and who continues to do so in the hearts of his people; otherwise, notwithstanding the work of grace in them, they would find very little inclination to, and few and faint desires after spiritual things; and less strength to do what is spiritually good; but God of his good pleasure goes on working what is well pleasing in his sight.
Gill.

So, be gracious to Earny who disagrees with you.

No wonder there is such a strong aversion to anything "Calvinistic"

Get that?
J.

Regarding your point 1, let's look at the scripture that you cite which appears to come from a catechism:

1. but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands. (Matthew 17:12)
2. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. (James 1:14)
3. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Not one of those citations states that man was created with the ability to do good nor the ability to manipulate his free-will to choose God.

Let's now examine each verse in turn:

1. Matthew 17:12 - man is evil, and in his evil man atrocitied John the Baptist by separating his head from his body even then, later, man evilly crucified the Christ. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.
2. James 1:14 - James describes free-willians adulterating the Word of God; furthermore, in the same passage James wrote "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (James 1:17), so good is from God thus James is in accord with Lord Jesus saying "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18), and none of the good is of man because James wrote "every good" not just "good" thus leaving just "evil" for man. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.
3. Deuteronomy 30:19 - Moses said "witness against you" thus he expresses that if the people think they choose life in the Promised Land, then heaven witnesses the evil deed of failure (the need for Messiah and Savior is evident); furthermore, the verse is absent of "you have the ability to choose, so choose life", so evil men may think they choose life, but they really don't - men choose death. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.

I am transferring this chain of conversation to this more topically appropriate thread from post 807 in Is believing/faith a work ? .

 

[Johann]

Addressing the OP only, good post and good replies. but "Free Will" is also a desire, for they are Similar or synonyms with each other. and right in chapter 3 we have our answer. Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

the choice, or the free will was to be wise. and it was a choice, "to make" ... one wise.

PICJAG.

"Free will" is actually "Self willed"
I make a lot of choices on a daily basis, does it mean I don't have "free will" to obey the commandments of God, or self?

 

[Johann]

Scripture does not state anything about a God-given ability to obey or disobey, so that is called adding to scripture about which the Apostle John proclaimed warning (Revelation 22:18-19).

It is written, "'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD. 'For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.'" (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Item 2.2. addresses your assertion about things being very good. God's Plan of Redemption through the Christ for mankind is good (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13), and God's plan was clearly under way on the fifth day, so Genesis 1:31 makes sense.

Let us take a scriptural view of the creation account:

It is written "You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand" (Isaiah 64:8).

It is written "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory' (Romans 9:18-23)

This leads to the point where God created Adam with "God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being" (Genesis 2:7).

The Potter formed Adam. Behold, there was no free will imparted to Adam.

Exodus 32:26
Verse Concepts
then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him.

Deuteronomy 30:19
Verse Concepts
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Joshua 24:15
Verse Concepts
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

1 Kings 18:21
Verse Concepts
Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people did not answer him a word.

Acts 14:22
Verse Concepts
strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

Topics on Choosing
Choosing Friends
Proverbs 18:24
Verse Concepts
A man of too many friends comes to ruin,
But there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.

Choosing God's Way
Joshua 24:15
Verse Concepts
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Choosing People
2 Samuel 16:18
Verse Concepts
Then Hushai said to Absalom, “No! For whom the Lord, this people, and all the men of Israel have chosen, his I will be, and with him I will remain.

Choosing Things
2 Samuel 24:12
Verse Concepts
“Go and speak to David, ‘Thus the Lord says, “I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I will do to you.”’”

I am going to disagree with you, that is my choice @Kermos

 

[Kermos]

The Hebrew Word For "Choose" And It's Conjugates Is בָּחר (bachar) Strong's Number 977​

Beholding Joshua 24:15​

Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct, for example:

IF condition THEN predicate

Stated in a more Joshua 24:15 focused fashion.

IF you_do_this that_will_happen

Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).

A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.

Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15), so the condition (you_do_this) is "to serve the LORD is disagreeable in your eyes"; furthermore, Joshua 24:15 contains no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God . The condition Joshua expressed states the condition/state-of-being/nature of the person.

Disagreeable does not mean choose.

In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods to choose among for the those people whose nature is against the LORD, for Joshua said "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living" (Joshua 24:15), and the word "choose" in this verse is translated from בָּחר (bachar) (Strong's Number 977).

Finaly, Joshua states "but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD", and there is no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15).

A state of being, "disagreeable", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15, and action, "serve", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15.

There is no choice towards God mentioned in Joshua 24:15.

Beholding The Larger Context Surrounding Joshua 24:15​

No scripture states that the people in attendance actually chose the gods of their fathers or that they chose the gods of the Amorites, not in Joshua 24:15, not elsewhere.
I am not necessarily saying that they could not choose the gods of their fathers or the gods of the Amorites.

The people said "We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God" (Joshua 24:18).

Joshua declared to the people in response "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins" (Joshua 24:19).

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO SERVE GOD.

The people then said to Joshua, "No, but we will serve YHWH." (Joshua 24:21).

Joshua responded to the people with "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves YHWH, to serve Him." (Joshua 24:22)

JOSHUA JUST TOLD THEM THAT THEY ARE "WITNESSES AGAINST YOURSELVES", SO THEY TESTIFIED TO THE CONDEMNATION OF THEMSELVES.

When a person is a "witness for a defendant", then such a one is a proponent for the defendant; in other words, a witness for the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for justification of the defendant.

When a person is a "witness against a defendant", then such a one is an opponent against the defendant; in other words, a witness against the defendant. This scenario outlines testimony for condemnation of the defendant.

The truth is there is no free will in the passage.

Regarding when Joshua said "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him" (Joshua 24:22):

From the time that Joshua commanded "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23) until after Joshua's death (Joshua 24:29) and after Othneil (Judges 3:9) and after Ehud (Judges 3:15) and after Shamgar (Judges 3:31) and after Deborah and Barak (Judges 4-5) and after Gideon (Judges 6-8) and after Tola (Judges 10:1) and after Jair (Judges 10:3), it was not until after all that time that...

After all that time it is written "they put away the foreign gods from among them" (Judges 10:16), and there is no record of the Israelites putting away the foreign Gods prior to that time.

Judges 10:16 contains the first occurrence of "foreign gods" after Joshua 24:23.

So there is no record of the people in attendance fulfilling Joshua's command of "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23), and non-performance of the command shows fruit contrary of their choice mentioned by Joshua.

Beholding The Corollary Between Joshua's Words And Jesus' Words - Expressing The Exclusive Power Of God For God And Man Communing​

Joshua declared "You will not be able to serve YHWH" (Joshua 24:19, and recall Joshua saying the people chose God in a pejorative manner in Joshua 24:22).
Lord Yeshua declares "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

The Lord is a Holy God (Joshua 24:19), and no man can enter the presence of God by the man's own autonomous power (Matthew 19:25-26).

BEHOLD THE DISTINCT COROLLARY BETWEEN JOSHUA'S WORDS AND YESHUA'S WORDS - THAT MAN IS IMPOTENT AT CHOOSING GOD.

Joshua declared "He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins" (Joshua 24:19).

Lord Yeshua declares "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

The Lord is a jealous God (Joshua 24:19), so God does not share the glory of choosing man unto salvation (Isaiah 42:8).

BEHOLD ANOTHER DISTINCT COROLLARY BETWEEN JOSHUA'S WORDS AND YESHUA'S WORDS - THAT GOD EXCLUSIVELY CONTROLS FORGIVENESS OF SINS UNTO SALVATION.

(1) The scripture in Joshua 24 never indicates that the people chose God with God's blessing.

(2) Joshua told the people that they are "witnesses against yourselves" (Joshua 24:22), so the people testified to the condemnation of themselves.

(3) From the time that Joshua commanded to the people in attendance "Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst" (Joshua 24:23) at least 245 years* transpired until another generation of people "put away the foreign gods from among them" (Judges 10:16), and there is no record of the Israelites putting away the foreign gods prior to that time, and non-performance of the command (Joshua 24:23) shows fruit contrary of the people in attendance choice mentioned by Joshua (Joshua 24:22).

* 40 years (Judges 3:11) + 80 years (Judges 3:30) + 40 years (Judges 5:31) + 40 years (Judges 8:28) + 23 years (Judges 10:2) + 22 years (Judges 10:3) = 245 years

The Truth (John 14:6) is no scripture states that man was imparted free will, in particular, the ability to choose God unto man being saved from the wrath of God, for God reserses this glorious work unto God's majestic glory alone (John 15:16, John 15:19, includes salvation).

 

[Kermos]

Exodus 32:26
Verse Concepts
then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me!” And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him.

In Exodus 32:26, Moses did not say "Whoever chooses the Lord, come to me!". Truly, Moses said "Who is on YHWH's side? Come to me".

Deuteronomy 30:19
Verse Concepts
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Repeating Deuteronomy 30:19 is foolishness after it was clearly demonstrated that free-will is not shown in that verse in the post to which you replied. Let me remind you, since you free-willians seem to suffer from selective amnesia.

In Deuteronomy 30:19, Moses said "witness against you", which is representative of a hostile witness against an opponent or enemy, thus Moses expresses that if the people think they choose life in the Promised Land, then heaven witnesses the evil deed of failure (the need for Messiah and Savior is evident); furthermore, the verse is absent of "you have the ability to choose, so choose life", so evil men may think they choose life, but they really don't - men choose death. There is nothing herein about man inclined to good.

Joshua 24:15
Verse Concepts
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

You included Joshua 24:15 twice, and the true exegesis of the verse is in this separate post 1,410 to you.

1 Kings 18:21
Verse Concepts
Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people did not answer him a word.

In 1 Kings 18:21, Elijah did not say the people ever chose God - specifically he said they never got there.

Acts 14:22
Verse Concepts
strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

In Acts 14:22, the verse starts with "strengthening the souls of the disciples", so the question is who strengthened the souls to keep the faith? The faith that is a work of God (John 6:29). The answer is the Word of God which Paul and Barnabas were proclaiming to the people in Derbe according to Acts 14:19-21. The Bread of Life nourishes the soul.

Topics on Choosing
Choosing Friends
Proverbs 18:24
Verse Concepts
A man of too many friends comes to ruin,
But there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.

In Proverbs 18:24, the phrase "choosing friends" does not occur - after all you were the one who brought up the passage in James which states "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (James 1:17). I tell you that a friend in Christ is a perfect gift from God!

Choosing God's Way
Joshua 24:15
Verse Concepts
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

You included Joshua 24:15 twice, and the true exegesis of the verse is in this separate post 1,410 to you.

Choosing People
2 Samuel 16:18
Verse Concepts
Then Hushai said to Absalom, “No! For whom the Lord, this people, and all the men of Israel have chosen, his I will be, and with him I will remain.

In 2 Samuel 16:18, the people chose Absalom, yet Absalom was defeated by David's army, so the people made the wrong choice. As shown in the explanation about Joshua 24:15, ungodly people are unable to make the right choice; in other words, they can only make wrong choices.

Choosing Things
2 Samuel 24:12
Verse Concepts
“Go and speak to David, ‘Thus the Lord says, “I am offering you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I will do to you.”’”

Regarding 2 Samuel 24:12, David was anointed by God, so David was under God's blessing, yet David sinned in the flesh. In David's response to God demand for a choice by David, it is quite telling that David didn't want ("want" is related to "will") to fall into the hand of flesh even though he acknowledged his fall into God's hand "I am in great distress. Let us now fall into the hand of YHWH for His mercies are great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man" (2 Samuel 24:14) and God had said of Job who had God's blessing "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him" (Job 1:12, and see Job 1:8-12). God preserved both Job and David, and God blessed them both afterward for Job was blessed later with a large family and plenty, and for David - Jesus is called Son of David! THIS VERSE DOES NOT SAY THAT DAVID POSSESSED THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE GOD, BUT DAVID'S CHOICES WERE RESTRICTED TO TYPES OF PUNISHMENT. In fact, we have scripture that clearly states God chose David (1 Samuel 16:12).

I am going to disagree with you, that is my choice @Kermos

The Truth (John 14:6) is the Word of God, and these words of Christ reverberate to all believers in all time:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Christ defines us Christians.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Johann]

Repeating Deuteronomy 30:19 is foolishness after it was clearly demonstrated that free-will is not shown in that verse in the post to which you replied. Let me remind you, since you free-willians seem to suffer from selective amnesia.

Brother, I don't agree with you, or your essays.
No need to single me out, and "dump" page after page that I don't agree with.

 

[Kermos]

Brother, I don't agree with you, or your essays.
No need to single me out, and "dump" page after page that I don't agree with.

I quote the Word of God, so your disagreement is with the Word of God. You calling the Word of God a "dump" is shamefully disgraceful.

I'll give you an example. You cited Joshua 24:15 as support for man's purported free-will, so I provided text compiled over time while engaging with free-willians, even in this very thread. It turns out, that you free-willians repeat each other's same deceptions over and over.

You private messaged me using this site's messaging system. You engaged me, so I didn't single you out.

Interestingly, God had me compose the explanation of Deuteronomy 30:19 directly to you - that you disruptively quoted in part not whole in your post. I did not pull that composition from an essay, yet you called it a "dump". You bear false witness.

Now, chew on this from your writing recorded in this post:

30. Be afraid, if lawless (ROM 13:4)
Category "1,050 NEW TESTAMENT COMMANDS"
1050 NT commands Page 2
​

See that you have "Page 2" in your post. I didn't call your post a "dump".

Instead of speaking of the scripture, even the very Word of God, and the true exegesis in the post, you just disregard the whole scriptural post with a swipe of your hand, but you are not God, and the Word of God endures forever, yet your word (such as your word exposed in the post to which you replied) is merely that of a vapor.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Johann]

I quote the Word of God, so your disagreement is with the Word of God. You calling the Word of God a "dump" is shamefully disgraceful.

I'll give you an example. You cited Joshua 24:15 as support for man's purported free-will, so I provided text compiled over time while engaging with free-willians, even in this very thread. It turns out, that you free-willians repeat each other's same deceptions over and over.

You private messaged me using this site's messaging system. You engaged me, so I didn't single you out.

Interestingly, God had me compose the explanation of Deuteronomy 30:19 directly to you - that you disruptively quoted in part not whole in your post. I did not pull that composition from an essay, yet you called it a "dump". You bear false witness.

Now, chew on this from your writing recorded in this post:

​

30. Be afraid, if lawless (ROM 13:4)​

Category "1,050 NEW TESTAMENT COMMANDS"​

1050 NT commands Page 2​

​

See that you have "Page 2" in your post. I didn't call your post a "dump".

Instead of speaking of the scripture, even the very Word of God, and the true exegesis in the post, you just disregard the whole scriptural post with a swipe of your hand, but you are not God, and the Word of God endures forever, yet your word (such as your word exposed in the post to which you replied) is merely that of a vapor.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Myth of Free Will
BY WALTER CHANTRY
Most people say that they believe in "free will." Do you have any idea what that means? I believe that you will find a great deal of superstition on this subject. The will is saluted as the grand power of the human soul which is completely free to direct our lives. But from what is it free? And what is its power?

THE MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM

No one denies that man has a will—that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention.

Joseph's brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in his power directed events for Joseph's good. He said, "You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20).

And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God's providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead.

By saying that your will is free, we certainly do not mean that it determines the course of your life. You did not choose the sickness, sorrow, war, and poverty that have spoiled your happiness. You did not choose to have enemies. If man's will is so potent, why not choose to live on and on? But you must die. The major factors which shape your life cannot thank your will. You did not select your social status, color, intelligence, etc.

Any sober reflection on your experience will produce the conclusion, "A man's mind plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps" (Prov. 16:9). Rather than extolling the human will, we ought to humbly praise the Lord whose purposes shape our lives. As Jeremiah confessed, "I know, 0 Lord, that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23).

Yes, you may choose what you want, and you may plan what you will do. But your will is not free to accomplish anything contrary to the purposes of God. Neither have you any power to reach your goals but that which God allows you. The next time you are so enamored with your own will, remember Jesus' parable about the rich man. The wealthy man said, "I will do this; I will pull down my barns, and build larger ones; and there I will store all my grain and my goods... But God said to him, Fool! This night your soul is required of you" (Luke 12:18-21). He was free to plan but not free to accomplish; so it is with you.

THE MYTH OF ETHICAL FREEDOM

But freedom of the will is cited as an important factor in making moral decisions. Man's will is said to be free to choose between good and evil. But again we must ask, from what is it free? And what is man's will free to choose?

The will of man is his power to choose between alternatives. Your will does decide your actions from a number of options. You have the faculty to direct your own thoughts, words, and deeds. Your decisions are not formed by an outside force but from within yourself. No man is compelled to act contrary to his will, nor forced to say what he does not wish. Your will guides your actions.

Yet this does not mean that the power to decide is free from all influence. You make choices based on your understanding, your feelings, your likes and dislikes, and your appetites. In other words, your will is not free from yourself! Your choices are determined by your own basic character. The will is not independent of your nature but the slave of it. Your choices do not shape your character, but your character guides your choices. The will is quite partial to what you know, feel, love, and desire. You always choose on the basis of your disposition, according to the condition of your heart.

It is just for this reason that your will is not free to do good. Your will is the servant of your heart, and your heart is evil. "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5). "No one does good, not even one" (Rom. 3:12). No power forces man to sin contrary to his will, but the descendants of Adam are so evil that they always choose the evil.

Your decisions are molded by your understanding, and the Bible says of all men, "Their senseless minds are darkened" (Rom. 1:21). Man can only be righteous when he desires to have fellowship with God, but, "No one seeks for God" (Rom. 3:11). Your appetites crave sin, and thus you cannot choose Good. To choose good is contrary human nature. If you chose to obey God, it would be the result of external compulsion. But you are free to choose, and hence your choice is enslaved to your own evil nature.

If fresh meat and tossed salad were placed before a hungry lion, he would choose the flesh. This is because his nature dictates the selection. It is just so with man. The will of man is free from outside force but not from the bias of human nature. That bias is against God. Man's powers of decision are free to choose whatever the human heart dictates; therefore there is no possibility of a man choosing to please God without a prior work of divine grace.

What most people mean by free will is the idea that man is by nature neutral and therefore able to choose either good or evil. This simply is not true. The human will and the whole of human nature is bent to only evil continually. Jeremiah asked, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil" (Jer. 13:23). It is impossible. It is contrary to nature. Thus do men desperately need the supernatural transformation of their natures, else their wills are enslaved to choosing evil.

In spite of the great praise that is given to "free will," we have seen that man's will is not free to choose a course contrary to God's purposes nor free to act contrary to his own moral nature. Your will does not determine the events of your life nor the circumstances of it. Ethical choices are not formed by a neutral mind but always dictated by your personality.

THE MYTH OF SPIRITUAL FREEDOM

Nevertheless many assert that the human will makes the ultimate choice of spiritual life or spiritual death. Here the will is altogether free to choose eternal life offered in Jesus Christ or to reject it. It is said that God will give a new heart to all who choose by the power of their own free will to receive Jesus Christ.

There can be no question that receiving Jesus Christ is an act of the human will. It is often called "faith." But how do men come to willingly receive the Lord? It is usually answered, "Out of the power of their own free will." But how can that be? Jesus is a prophet. To receive him means to believe all that he says. In John 8:41-45 Jesus made it clear that you were born of Satan. This evil father hates the truth and imparted the same bias into your heart by nature. Hence said Jesus, "Because I tell you the truth, you do not believe me." How does the human will jump out of man to choose to believe what the human mind hates and denies?

To receive Jesus further means to embrace him as a priest—that is, to employ, and depend on him to sue out peace with God by sacrifice and intercession. Paul tells us that the mind with which we were born is hostile to God (Rom. 8:7). How can the will escape the influence of human nature which was born with a violent enmity to God? It would be insane for the will to choose peace when every bone and drop of blood cries out for rebellion.

 

[Johann]

Inability: Free Will Vs. Free Agency
BY J.I. PACKER
INABILITY: FALLEN HUMAN BEINGS ARE BOTH FREE AND ENSLAVED

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? JEREMIAH 17:9

Clear thought about the fallen human condition requires a distinction between what for the past two centuries has been called free agency and what since the start of Christianity has been called free will. Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and others spoke of free will in two senses, the first trivial, the second important; but this was confusing, and it is better always to use free agency for their first sense.

Free agency is a mark of human beings as such. All humans are free agents in the sense that they make their own decisions as to what they will do, choosing as they please in the light of their sense of right and wrong and the inclinations they feel. Thus they are moral agents, answerable to God and each other for their voluntary choices. So was Adam, both before and after he sinned; so are we now, and so are the glorified saints who are confirmed in grace in such a sense that they no longer have it in them to sin. Inability to sin will be one of the delights and glories of heaven, but it will not terminate anyone’s humanness; glorified saints will still make choices in accordance with their nature, and those choices will not be any the less the product of human free agency just because they will always be good and right.

Free will, however, has been defined by Christian teachers from the second century on as the ability to choose all the moral options that a situation offers, and Augustine affirmed against Pelagius and most of the Greek Fathers that original sin has robbed us of free will in this sense. We have no natural ability to discern and choose God’s way because we have no natural inclination Godward; our hearts are in bondage to sin, and only the grace of regeneration can free us from that slavery. This, for substance, was what Paul taught in Romans 6:16-23; only the freed will (Paul says, the freed person) freely and heartily chooses righteousness. A permanent love of righteousness—that is, an inclination of heart to the way of living that pleases God—is one aspect of the freedom that Christ gives (John 8:34-36; Gal. 5:1, 13).

It is worth observing that will is an abstraction. My will is not a part of me which I choose to move or not to move, like my hand or my foot; it is precisely me choosing to act and then going into action. The truth about free agency, and about Christ freeing sin’s slave from sin’s dominion, can be expressed more clearly if the word will is dropped and each person says: I am the morally responsible free agency; I am the slave of sin whom Christ must liberate; I am the fallen being who only have it in me to choose against God till God renews my heart.

 

[Johann]

Inability: Free Will Vs. Free Agency
BY J.I. PACKER
INABILITY: FALLEN HUMAN BEINGS ARE BOTH FREE AND ENSLAVED

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? JEREMIAH 17:9

Clear thought about the fallen human condition requires a distinction between what for the past two centuries has been called free agency and what since the start of Christianity has been called free will. Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and others spoke of free will in two senses, the first trivial, the second important; but this was confusing, and it is better always to use free agency for their first sense.

Free agency is a mark of human beings as such. All humans are free agents in the sense that they make their own decisions as to what they will do, choosing as they please in the light of their sense of right and wrong and the inclinations they feel. Thus they are moral agents, answerable to God and each other for their voluntary choices. So was Adam, both before and after he sinned; so are we now, and so are the glorified saints who are confirmed in grace in such a sense that they no longer have it in them to sin. Inability to sin will be one of the delights and glories of heaven, but it will not terminate anyone’s humanness; glorified saints will still make choices in accordance with their nature, and those choices will not be any the less the product of human free agency just because they will always be good and right.

Free will, however, has been defined by Christian teachers from the second century on as the ability to choose all the moral options that a situation offers, and Augustine affirmed against Pelagius and most of the Greek Fathers that original sin has robbed us of free will in this sense. We have no natural ability to discern and choose God’s way because we have no natural inclination Godward; our hearts are in bondage to sin, and only the grace of regeneration can free us from that slavery. This, for substance, was what Paul taught in Romans 6:16-23; only the freed will (Paul says, the freed person) freely and heartily chooses righteousness. A permanent love of righteousness—that is, an inclination of heart to the way of living that pleases God—is one aspect of the freedom that Christ gives (John 8:34-36; Gal. 5:1, 13).

It is worth observing that will is an abstraction. My will is not a part of me which I choose to move or not to move, like my hand or my foot; it is precisely me choosing to act and then going into action. The truth about free agency, and about Christ freeing sin’s slave from sin’s dominion, can be expressed more clearly if the word will is dropped and each person says: I am the morally responsible free agency; I am the slave of sin whom Christ must liberate; I am the fallen being who only have it in me to choose against God till God renews my heart.

How's this for dumping @Kermos?

You come across as very aggressive, I don't like that "tone" should I disagree with you, and I do disagree.

Keep in your lane, and me in mine, and don't break any rules here mate, otherwise it's "checkmate" for you.

J.

 

[Johann]

Inability: Free Will Vs. Free Agency
BY J.I. PACKER
INABILITY: FALLEN HUMAN BEINGS ARE BOTH FREE AND ENSLAVED

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? JEREMIAH 17:9

Clear thought about the fallen human condition requires a distinction between what for the past two centuries has been called free agency and what since the start of Christianity has been called free will. Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and others spoke of free will in two senses, the first trivial, the second important; but this was confusing, and it is better always to use free agency for their first sense.

Free agency is a mark of human beings as such. All humans are free agents in the sense that they make their own decisions as to what they will do, choosing as they please in the light of their sense of right and wrong and the inclinations they feel. Thus they are moral agents, answerable to God and each other for their voluntary choices. So was Adam, both before and after he sinned; so are we now, and so are the glorified saints who are confirmed in grace in such a sense that they no longer have it in them to sin. Inability to sin will be one of the delights and glories of heaven, but it will not terminate anyone’s humanness; glorified saints will still make choices in accordance with their nature, and those choices will not be any the less the product of human free agency just because they will always be good and right.

Free will, however, has been defined by Christian teachers from the second century on as the ability to choose all the moral options that a situation offers, and Augustine affirmed against Pelagius and most of the Greek Fathers that original sin has robbed us of free will in this sense. We have no natural ability to discern and choose God’s way because we have no natural inclination Godward; our hearts are in bondage to sin, and only the grace of regeneration can free us from that slavery. This, for substance, was what Paul taught in Romans 6:16-23; only the freed will (Paul says, the freed person) freely and heartily chooses righteousness. A permanent love of righteousness—that is, an inclination of heart to the way of living that pleases God—is one aspect of the freedom that Christ gives (John 8:34-36; Gal. 5:1, 13).

It is worth observing that will is an abstraction. My will is not a part of me which I choose to move or not to move, like my hand or my foot; it is precisely me choosing to act and then going into action. The truth about free agency, and about Christ freeing sin’s slave from sin’s dominion, can be expressed more clearly if the word will is dropped and each person says: I am the morally responsible free agency; I am the slave of sin whom Christ must liberate; I am the fallen being who only have it in me to choose against God till God renews my heart.

How's this for dumping @Kermos?

You come across as very aggressive, I don't like that "tone" should I disagree with you, and I do disagree.

Keep in your lane, and me in mine, and don't break any rules here mate, otherwise it's "checkmate" for you.

J.

I quote the Word of God, so your disagreement is with the Word of God. You calling the Word of God a "dump" is shamefully disgraceful.

I'll give you an example. You cited Joshua 24:15 as support for man's purported free-will, so I provided text compiled over time while engaging with free-willians, even in this very thread. It turns out, that you free-willians repeat each other's same deceptions over and over.

You private messaged me using this site's messaging system. You engaged me, so I didn't single you out.

Interestingly, God had me compose the explanation of Deuteronomy 30:19 directly to you - that you disruptively quoted in part not whole in your post. I did not pull that composition from an essay, yet you called it a "dump". You bear false witness.

Now, chew on this from your writing recorded in this post:

​

30. Be afraid, if lawless (ROM 13:4)​

Category "1,050 NEW TESTAMENT COMMANDS"​

1050 NT commands Page 2​

​

See that you have "Page 2" in your post. I didn't call your post a "dump".

Instead of speaking of the scripture, even the very Word of God, and the true exegesis in the post, you just disregard the whole scriptural post with a swipe of your hand, but you are not God, and the Word of God endures forever, yet your word (such as your word exposed in the post to which you replied) is merely that of a vapor.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

Do Christians have free will?
Image result for prca.com do christians have free will?
Mankind has free will to accept or reject the grace of God. Rejection of the gifts of God is called blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (gifts of grace, faith, life). The first who defined this teaching was John Cassian, 4th-century Church Father, and a pupil of John Chrysostom, and all Eastern Fathers accept it.

 

[Johann]

How's this for dumping @Kermos?

You come across as very aggressive, I don't like that "tone" should I disagree with you, and I do disagree.

Keep in your lane, and me in mine, and don't break any rules here mate, otherwise it's "checkmate" for you.

J.

THE CAUSE OF THE EFFECT IS GOD:
The power that compels us comes from the Spirit Who indwells us.

Paul now explains the "cause" of the "effect" in Php 2:12-note. Stated another way, he explains the inworking of the Spirit, so that we might be enabled to obey the present imperative command to make this our lifestyle, our habitual practice to work out our salvation or to "work out what the Spirit works in!"

Notice we see this same spiritual dynamic in the prayer in Hebrews 13:20-21-note (which makes it a great prayer to pray for yourself and for all for whom you intercede!)...

Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, 21 equip you in every good thing (cp Php 2:13 - the Spirit supernaturally equips us) to do His will (cp Php 2:13- the equipped saint supernaturally works out his or her salvation relying on the Spirit's power), working in us (present tense = Again emphasizing the continual energizing effect of the Holy Spirit in every believer - the question is this...are you keeping yourself "plugged in" to the energy Source, not grieving or quenching Him?) that which is pleasing in His sight, through (the Mediator) Jesus Christ, to Whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

J Ligon Duncan remarks that Philippians 2:12-13 is "one of the most important passages in all of the Bible about how we grow in grace, how we become more like Jesus Christ."

For (gar) - Notice the little preposition "for" (there are several thousand "for's" in Scripture!) and in this passage it is a term of explanation. This should always stimulate us to pause and ask what is the Spirit seeking to explain? (In fact, stop reading right now and observe the passage and see if you can determine what Paul is explaining.) You should practice this simple but very rewarding discipline every time you encounter a term of explanation. I guarantee it will rejuvenate your "Read Through the Bible in a Year" program! You might even get a small journal and begin to keep notes on what the Spirit illuminates and how this truth can be applied to your daily life. As you practice interrogating the text (the "for's") with the 5W/H questions such as "What the for there for?", what you are beginning to learn how to do is to read the Bible inductively and also how to meditate (see also Primer on Biblical Meditation) on the Scripture, a vanishing discipline in our fast paced world, but one which God gives you His sure promise of untold blessing (cp the promises to richly reward - see Ps 1:1-note, Ps 1:2-note, Ps 1:3-note, Joshua 1:8-note), cp Ps 4:4, 19:14, 27:4, 49:4, 63:6, Ps 77:6, 77:12, Ps 104:34, Ps 119:15, 119:23, 119:27, Ps 119:48, 119:78, Ps 119:97, 119:99, Ps 119:148, 143:5, Ps 145:5 - From these passages which "organ" of our being is most often involved/engaged in meditation? What are the subjects or focus of meditation?). Reading the Bible without meditating on it is like eating without chewing. We must read…

Read Scripture every day
And meditate on what God said
To fight temptation from the world
And live a life that's Spirit led.
--Sper

 

[Kermos]

Myth of Free Will
BY WALTER CHANTRY
Most people say that they believe in "free will." Do you have any idea what that means? I believe that you will find a great deal of superstition on this subject. The will is saluted as the grand power of the human soul which is completely free to direct our lives. But from what is it free? And what is its power?

THE MYTH OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL FREEDOM

No one denies that man has a will—that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think. But have you ever reflected on the pitiful weakness of your will? Though you have the ability to make a decision, you do not have the power to carry out your purpose. Will may devise a course of action, but will has no power to execute its intention.

Joseph's brothers hated him. They sold him to be a slave. But God used their actions to make him a ruler over themselves. They chose their course of action to harm Joseph. But God in his power directed events for Joseph's good. He said, "You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" (Gen. 50:20).

And how many of your decisions are miserably thwarted? You may choose to be a millionaire, but God's providence is likely to prevent it. You may decide to be a scholar, but bad health, an unstable home, or lack of finances may frustrate your will. You choose to go on a vacation, but an automobile accident may send you to the hospital instead.

...snip...

THE MYTH OF SPIRITUAL FREEDOM

Nevertheless many assert that the human will makes the ultimate choice of spiritual life or spiritual death. Here the will is altogether free to choose eternal life offered in Jesus Christ or to reject it. It is said that God will give a new heart to all who choose by the power of their own free will to receive Jesus Christ.

There can be no question that receiving Jesus Christ is an act of the human will. It is often called "faith." But how do men come to willingly receive the Lord? It is usually answered, "Out of the power of their own free will." But how can that be? Jesus is a prophet. To receive him means to believe all that he says. In John 8:41-45 Jesus made it clear that you were born of Satan. This evil father hates the truth and imparted the same bias into your heart by nature. Hence said Jesus, "Because I tell you the truth, you do not believe me." How does the human will jump out of man to choose to believe what the human mind hates and denies?

To receive Jesus further means to embrace him as a priest—that is, to employ, and depend on him to sue out peace with God by sacrifice and intercession. Paul tells us that the mind with which we were born is hostile to God (Rom. 8:7). How can the will escape the influence of human nature which was born with a violent enmity to God? It would be insane for the will to choose peace when every bone and drop of blood cries out for rebellion.

In your second paragraph, and I do call it your post by way of you quoting another person with whom you exhibit agreement by quoting that person as an authority for you then you have made that person's words your own words, you wrote "No one denies that man has a will—that is, a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do, and think". While I agree that man has a will, it is the subsequent addendum by which you have departed from God’s Apostle's words of "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Paul, Philippians 2:13) because the Apostle makes it abundantly clear that God drives the will of us children of God; on the other hand, God's Apostle says that the children of wrath are self-willed with "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (Peter, 2 Peter 2:9-10), so it is here where we find autonomous willed people exercising "a faculty of choosing what he wishes to say, do", and those unrighteous people think they have a free (autonomous) will to choose Jesus yet in their so-called choosing of Jesus they revile His Majesty, King Jesus because they deny His Sovereign authority which He declares of:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15 , the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

There are only two mutually exclusive states for the will of man, either self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10) or a will that is bound to God (Philippians 2:13).

In your final two paragraphs, you post that a man's will, of Jesus, must "embrace him as a priest", but such embracing is an action - a work - a fruit thst shows of what a man is made - even more specifically, the embracing is love - a fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) - for God's Apostle declares "let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God" (John, 1 John 4:7), so a man can only love Jesus (embrace Jesus) righteously when the man is born of God.

THE ESSAYS CONVEY THE PRIOR PARAGRAPH, YET YOU, Johann, DECLARE THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH THE ESSAYS!

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.

 

[Kermos]

How's this for dumping @Kermos?

You come across as very aggressive, I don't like that "tone" should I disagree with you, and I do disagree.

Keep in your lane, and me in mine, and don't break any rules here mate, otherwise it's "checkmate" for you.

J.

Ler this be unambiguously clear and very direct to the point, the prior post to you here essentially covers your post.

Just as the original post shows richly in scripture, Adam was not imparted free will, and no man thereafter was imparted free will either.