Was James confused?

[bbyrd009]

So, are you saying verse 9 above is a lie?

no, and you already know and understand the reply, Richard, which is that one does not do good deeds to get saved, one got saved to go on and do good deeds.

(edit; or they got saved from a fear of hell and sat down, so as to sin as little as possible i guess)

 

[bbyrd009]

so this is me agreeing with you, your deeds are not going to determine your salvation, because deeds can be done from an impure heart, yes. Nonetheless you will be known by your deeds. Both are true.

 

[bbyrd009]

and you will be judged for your deeds, as Scripture also plainly states, more than once, see link

 

[H. Richard]

The two (James and Paul) do not disagree. This is "two-edged sword" effect of the word. Each has built what they were given upon the same foundation of truth, each addressing different issues.

For example: If John wrote "the path runs north, by the sea", and Paul wrote, "the path runs south by way of the mountains"...it does not mean it is a different path or that one is right and the other wrong. It means they gave different directions and told of different accounts for different reasons.

***
You must get off the fence. Did James lie in verse James 1:1 or are those that continue to say it was written to the Gentile church too lying? Talking all around it will not make it go away.

Perhaps the religious just can't see that Paul spent a lot of his writings trying to keep his converts from going under the law. But most ignore Paul.

Gal 3:11-14
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NKJV

 

[bbyrd009]

For anyone to continue to say we must have works is calling the above scripture a lie.

not it is not, it is a call to reconcile the two, and that is all i am suggesting.

 

[H. Richard]

and you will be judged for your deeds, as Scripture also plainly states, more than once, see link

***
According to the scriptures all will be judged by Paul's gospel of grace. Paul's gospel of grace is that Jesus paid for the sins of the world. The judgement will be """did you believe it.""

Rom 2:16
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV

Rom 16:25
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
NKJV

2 Tim 2:8
8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
NKJV

 

[GodsGrace]

***

1 Cor 6:10-12
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Glorify God in Body and Spirit 12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
NKJV

To put myself under the law would mean I am under the power of the law.

• We are not washed, or sanctified, or justified by what we do, period. It is what the Holy Spirit does. If it is by man's works then this scripture is a lie. Salvation is the work that Jesus accomplished on the cross. Either you believe in what He did or you don't.

OK H.Richard
I'm home...

First of all, whatever happened to your response to me as to some kind of support that James was not written to everyone?

2 Timothy 3:16 says that ALL scripture is inspired by God.
That the man of God may be equipped for every good WORK.

Oh no. Two terrible thoughts in ONE verse!!
1. ALL scripture is inspired.
2. WORKS are necessary.

Should we also eliminate the books of Timothy?

First of all let's see who James is writing to:
Since you didn't come up with anything, I will. First of all, I don't like to get information from the internet, but I don't know how else to do this. GotQuestions had the easiest and best explanation:

******************************************
Author: The author of this epistle (letter) is James, also called James the Just, who is thought to be the brother of Jesus Christ (Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3). James was not a believer (John 7:3-5) until after the resurrection (Acts 1:14; 1 Corinthians 15:7; Galatians 1:19). He became the head of the Jerusalem church and is mentioned first as a pillar of the church (Galatians 2:9).

Date of Writing: The Book of James is probably the oldest book of the New Testament, written perhaps as early as A.D. 45, before the first council of Jerusalem in A.D. 50. James was martyred in approximately A.D. 62, according to the historian Josephus.

Purpose of Writing: Some think that this epistle was written in response to an overzealous interpretation of Paul’s teaching regarding faith. This extreme view, called antinomianism, held that through faith in Christ one is completely free from all Old Testament law, all legalism, all secular law, and all the morality of a society. The Book of James is directed to Jewish Christians scattered among all the nations (James 1:1). Martin Luther, who detested this letter and called it “the epistle of straw,” failed to recognize that James’s teaching on works complemented—not contradicted—Paul’s teaching on faith. While Pauline teachings concentrate on our justification with God, James’ teachings concentrate on the works that exemplify that justification. James was writing to Jews to encourage them to continue growing in this new Christian faith. James emphasizes that good actions will naturally flow from those who are filled with the Spirit and questions whether someone may or may not have a saving faith if the fruits of the Spirit cannot be seen, much as Paul describes in Galatians 5:22-23.

Key Verses: James 1:2-3: "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance."

James 1:19: "My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry."

James 2:17-18: "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, ‘You have faith; I have deeds.’ Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.”

James 3:5: "Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark."

James 5:16b: "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.”

Brief Summary: The Book of James outlines the faith walk through genuine religion (1:1-27), genuine faith (2:1-3:12) and genuine wisdom (3:13-5:20). This book contains a remarkable parallel to Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7. James begins in the first chapter by describing the overall traits of the faith walk. In chapter 2 and the beginning of chapter 3 he discusses social justice and a discourse on faith in action. He then compares and contrasts the difference between worldly and godly wisdom and asks us to turn away from evil and draw close to God. James gives a particularly severe rebuke to the rich who hoard and those who are self-reliant. Finally he ends with encouragement to believers to be patient in suffering, praying and caring for one another and bolstering our faith through fellowship.

Connections: The Book of James is the ultimate description of the relationship between faith and works. So ingrained in the Mosaic Law and its system of works were the Jewish Christians to whom James wrote that he spent considerable time explaining the difficult truth that no one is justified by the works of the law (Galatians 2:16). He declares to them that even if they try their very best to keep all the various laws and rituals, doing so is impossible, and transgressing the tiniest part of the law made them guilty of all of it (James 2:10) because the law is one entity and breaking one part of it is breaking all of it.

Practical Application: We see in the Book of James a challenge to faithful followers of Jesus Christ to not just “talk the talk,” but to “walk the walk.” While our faith walk, to be certain, requires a growth of knowledge about the Word, James exhorts us to not stop there. Many Christians will find this epistle challenging as James presents 60 obligations in only 108 verses. He focuses on the truths of Jesus’ words in the Sermon on the Mount and motivates us to act upon what He taught.

The epistle also puts to rest the idea that one can become a Christian and yet continue living in sin, exhibiting no fruit of righteousness. Such a “faith,” James declares, is shared by the demons who “believe and tremble” (James 2:19). Yet such a “faith” cannot save because it is not verified by the works that always accompany true saving faith (Ephesians 2:10). Good works are not the cause of salvation, but they are the result of it.

Recommended Resource: Hebrews & James, Holman New Testament Commentary by Thomas Lea.
James, MacArthur New Testament Commentary by John MacArthur
The Epistle of James, New International Commentary on the New Testament by James Adamson

 

[GodsGrace]

***

1 Cor 6:10-12
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Glorify God in Body and Spirit 12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
NKJV

To put myself under the law would mean I am under the power of the law.

• We are not washed, or sanctified, or justified by what we do, period. It is what the Holy Spirit does. If it is by man's works then this scripture is a lie. Salvation is the work that Jesus accomplished on the cross. Either you believe in what He did or you don't.

We are NOT UNDER the Law.
This would be the Old or Mosaic Covenant.

HOWEVER, the Law is not abolished.
Mathew 5:17

The terms Justification and Sanctification were interchangeably used in the N.T. by Paul. This was sorted out the the church, both in the beginning by the early Christian theologians, and also by more modern day theologians.

What you are describing above, and in Corinthians is Justification.
Please find out what Sanctification means. I know I won't convince you as to its meaning, and I won't attempt to.

Of course, if you DO find out, it'll knock out your whole theory of salvation, so you may NOT WANT to find out.

That's up to you.

I can tell you that what you are stating is NOT biblical and is not correct and is not what the bible teaches.

 

[Job]

Should we also eliminate the books of Timothy?

Maybe Paul's books should be eliminated too. Look what he says regarding the Law.

Romans 2
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;


How can we be doers of the Law if the Law has been abolished?

o

 

[bbyrd009]

***
According to the scriptures all will be judged by Paul's gospel of grace. Paul's gospel of grace is that Jesus paid for the sins of the world. The judgement will be """did you believe it.""

Rom 2:16
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV

Rom 16:25
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
NKJV

2 Tim 2:8
8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
NKJV

yes, but Paul walked the walk lol, and your Scripture does not beat

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

10For we must all appear before the tribunal of Christ, so that each may be repaid for what he has done in the body, whether good or worthless.

ok, no matter how much you want it to. the two must be reconciled, you can't just keep ignoring half of the picture.
if you just enjoy "faith v works" arguments, there's like a billion of them online, all doing the same thing we are.

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe Paul's books should be eliminated too. Look what he says regarding the Law.

Romans 2
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;


How can we be doers of the Law if the Law has been abolished?

o

Of course.

There is no discrepancy between what Paul says and what James says.
It's the modern day church that wants to fill its pews with Easy Believers.

They're told that all they have to do is walk down the isle ONE TIME,
"accept Jesus" and they're saved forever.

This is not what Jesus said.
Jesus said that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments.
John 14:15

JESUS said this.
What commandments was He speaking about?

THIS would be a good starting point to understand what it is that JESUS expects from us --- not Paul or James, even though I do not see any conflict here.

 

[bbyrd009]

How can we be doers of the Law if the Law has been abolished?

by seeing that grace supersedes law, and asks more of you. Merely keeping the law = Job

 

[GodsGrace]

***
According to the scriptures all will be judged by Paul's gospel of grace. Paul's gospel of grace is that Jesus paid for the sins of the world. The judgement will be """did you believe it.""

Rom 2:16
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV

Rom 16:25
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
NKJV

2 Tim 2:8
8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
NKJV

No H.Richard

THIS is how we will be judged:

John 5:28-29
All who are in the tombs will hear HIS voice...
And shall come forth.
Those who DID THE GOOD DEEDS to a resurrection of life,
those who commited EVIL DEEDS to a resurrection of judgement.

Many are being led astray with the incorrect judgement YOU are expousing.

 

[GodsGrace]

PAUL IS NOT THE JUDGE
JESUS IS THE JUDGE

What did Mary say at the Wedding at Cana?
LISTEN TO HIM
DO WHAT HE SAYS
John 2:5

 

[GodsGrace]

by seeing that grace supersedes law, and asks more of you. Merely keeping the law = Job

Mathew 5:20

 

[bbyrd009]

Talking all around it will not make it go away.

you are welcome to exclude yourself from the implications of the letter if you prefer, Richard, but iiwy i would reflect upon how the case can be made without James anyway

 

[ScottA]

***
You must get off the fence. Did James lie in verse James 1:1 or are those that continue to say it was written to the Gentile church too lying? Talking all around it will not make it go away.

Perhaps the religious just can't see that Paul spent a lot of his writings trying to keep his converts from going under the law. But most ignore Paul.

Gal 3:11-14
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NKJV

No... If God has sent James for one aspect of His greater complex truth, and sent Paul for another...then to "get off the fence" would be to take sides, pitting God against Himself. Instead, we should be big enough to consider the whole and greater truth, that each has a different purpose and application...and they do.

God sent James to put feet to the new idea of being saved by faith, rather than being saved by the law. This was about the Jews obligation to service, that would now all have to change with the coming of Christ. On the contrary, God sent Paul to bring the gentiles up to speed with the idea that they did not have to come under the Jewish law, but to come under the saving grace of Christ, having no root in the commandments.

 

[FHII]

Each has built what they were given upon the same foundation of truth, each addressing different issues.

So what are those "different issues"? Both are discussing the relation of works to faith. Paul says we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. James says we not saved by faith alone but that we must also have works. This doesn't seem like a difference in issues.

The whole theme of the Epistle of James was to get believing Jews to stop fughting against each other. This sounds alot like what Paul was dealing with in his Epistle to the Corinthians. Different circumstances (James: social class warefare; Paul: debauchery and brother taking brother to court) but still the same outcome. It doesn't sound like a difference of issues. With that I'd like to point out that James didn't have the market cornered on love and mercy and being kind to one another. Paul actually spoke more about it by sheer volume. That I can remember... He spoke of it in all his letters.

Well, what about the audience? Well, in case you missed it from Richard... There was a difference of audience. Jews and Gentiles.

Was there a difference in doctrine? I believe there was. Paul believed Christians were no under the law (whether they be gentile or Jew) and James still believed Jews had to observe the law. And though he claimed not to put burdens on the gentiles, thats not what happened.

So what are these different issues and how do they affect us today?

I ask because I don't see any different issues that James had that Paul didn't see himself.

 

[ScottA]

So what are those "different issues"? Both are discussing the relation of works to faith. Paul says we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. James says we not saved by faith alone but that we must also have works. This doesn't seem like a difference in issues.

The whole theme of the Epistle of James was to get believing Jews to stop fughting against each other. This sounds alot like what Paul was dealing with in his Epistle to the Corinthians. Different circumstances (James: social class warefare; Paul: debauchery and brother taking brother to court) but still the same outcome. It doesn't sound like a difference of issues. With that I'd like to point out that James didn't have the market cornered on love and mercy and being kind to one another. Paul actually spoke more about it by sheer volume. That I can remember... He spoke of it in all his letters.

Well, what about the audience? Well, in case you missed it from Richard... There was a difference of audience. Jews and Gentiles.

Was there a difference in doctrine? I believe there was. Paul believed Christians were no under the law (whether they be gentile or Jew) and James still believed Jews had to observe the law. And though he claimed not to put burdens on the gentiles, thats not what happened.

So what are these different issues and how do they affect us today?

I ask because I don't see any different issues that James had that Paul didn't see himself.

God sent James to put feet to the new idea of being saved by faith, rather than being saved by the law. This was about the Jews obligation to service, that would now all have to change with the coming of Christ. On the contrary, God sent Paul to bring the gentiles up to speed with the idea that they did not have to come under the Jewish law, but to come under the saving grace of Christ, having no root in the commandments.

The importance, is that we see the difference, which is apparent...that we might rightly divide the word of truth. That was then, this is now.

 

[GodsGrace]

So what are those "different issues"? Both are discussing the relation of works to faith. Paul says we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. James says we not saved by faith alone but that we must also have works. This doesn't seem like a difference in issues.

Paul says we are saved by grace through faith FOR GOOD WORKS.
Ephesians 2:10

James says faith without works is dead.
James 2:17

James says there is no use in saying to someone "Go in peace, be warm" and yet give them what is necessary for the body.
IOW, we cannot only SPEAK nice things, we must DO nice things.
Call it works, deeds, all the same. It's doing what Jesus would require of us.

Mathew 25:36
For I was naked and you clothed me...

Jesus wants us to take care of our SPIRIT
AND the needs of others. When possible.

There is no contradiction between James, Paul and Jesus.
There is only for those who wish there to be.

The whole theme of the Epistle of James was to get believing Jews to stop fughting against each other. This sounds alot like what Paul was dealing with in his Epistle to the Corinthians. Different circumstances (James: social class warefare; Paul: debauchery and brother taking brother to court) but still the same outcome. It doesn't sound like a difference of issues. With that I'd like to point out that James didn't have the market cornered on love and mercy and being kind to one another. Paul actually spoke more about it by sheer volume. That I can remember... He spoke of it in all his letters.

Paul spoke many times of what we're supposed to do and not do.
Romans 13:8-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-11

Well, what about the audience? Well, in case you missed it from Richard... There was a difference of audience. Jews and Gentiles.

Was there a difference in doctrine? I believe there was. Paul believed Christians were no under the law (whether they be gentile or Jew) and James still believed Jews had to observe the law. And though he claimed not to put burdens on the gentiles, thats not what happened.

So what are these different issues and how do they affect us today?

I ask because I don't see any different issues that James had that Paul didn't see himself.

If you believe there is no discrepancy in the teaching, as I believe you've stated, then you also cannot believe there is a difference in doctrine...

Both did not believe that we are UNDER the Old Covenant, but both believed we are to have faith and live a life as Jesus would have us.
Romans 6:1-2