Was James confused?

[bbyrd009]

Look, it is plain to me that James was writing to Jews who were under the law of Moses. He said so in James 1:1. For people to insist that what James wrote was to the grace church is to refuse the truth and try to establish a lie.

so you say, but that the grace Church is adopted Israel and that the Jews were dispersed because God divorced them is maybe not getting a hearing in your mind, causing you to qualify a Book of NT Scripture as being for "a Jew, only," when we are told that there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, in the kingdom.

So iow you might be accused of hearing with the same hearing as those James wrote his Book to, but that does not mean that that is the best way to hear, as you supposedly know better than those, who had not yet accepted that "there is no Jew or Greek in the kingdom."

understand that this is just a perspective, ok, i don't personally care if you accept James or not, and faith without works is dead regardless of James anyway

 

[bbyrd009]

Why do people keep trying to put those under grace under the Law of Moses?

because you must fulfill the law, which is not being under the law, but these are easy to confuse

 

[bbyrd009]

Our starting point is [or should be?] that each and every book in the NT was written by men under the inspiration of God. This includes the writings of BOTH James and Paul. Rather than working to throw out one of them or part of one of them, why not ask God to help you understand what seems to you to be contradictions or discrepancies.

sounds like a much healthier idea, ya

Is that being done? Humor me who has not read all of the long pages of this thread by explaining simply what you mean.

ha i almost asked the same Q, but obviously many "pastors" have de facto "laws" for their congregants i guess, so he also has a point imo

 

[H. Richard]

because you must fulfill the law, which is not being under the law, but these are easy to confuse

***
No man can fulfill the law. That is why Jesus fulfilled it FOR US. No man can fulfill the law. The law condemns all men because NO MAN CAN KEEP IT. But it seems that some think they can keep it. I guess that means Jesus didn't need to do it for us, right?

 

[H. Richard]

so you say, but that the grace Church is adopted Israel and that the Jews were dispersed because God divorced them is maybe not getting a hearing in your mind, causing you to qualify a Book of NT Scripture as being for "a Jew, only," when we are told that there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, in the kingdom.

So iow you might be accused of hearing with the same hearing as those James wrote his Book to, but that does not mean that that is the best way to hear, as you supposedly know better than those, who had not yet accepted that "there is no Jew or Greek in the kingdom."

understand that this is just a perspective, ok, i don't personally care if you accept James or not, and faith without works is dead regardless of James anyway

***
Those under grace did not become Jews or Israel. That is a man made idea so that the Law can be required. Although it is true that under grace there is no difference between anyone before God. For all have sinned and therefore require Jesus shed blood to pay for their sins.

Look, the idea that anyone can say the book of James was written to all makes what James said in James 1:1 a lie. Either what he wrote in James 1:1 was to the Jews as he said it was or he lied. You can't make a truth out of a lie.

 

[GodsGrace]

***
What is it that we have that overcomes to world???

1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world — our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
NKJV ------ now comes the works crowd and they insist that John should have included man's works works to overcome the world.

I see that some insist it is our works. The question they should answer, for themselves, is when they stand before Jesus are they going to tell Him that they deserve heaven because of their works or His works on the cross? One is being self-righteous the other is glorifying the work of the Son of God.

Heb 12:1-2 ------ The Race of Faith
12 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
NKJV

A child of God would rather live a sinless life but they can not while living in sinful flesh. This is why Jesus paid for the sins of the whole world. But His payment has to be believed. Believe, faith, trust, confidence are all words used to define each others meaning.

No one is arguing against doing good for others is the right thing to do. But doing works to establish a person's salvation is under the Law of Moses and today no one is under the Law of Moses.

Will write again from home.

I agree that we are justified by faith alone.
No way could we work for our salvation.
If so, Jesus would not have had to atone for our sons.

But do works not come after salvation?
After salvation, is there not sanctification?
Justification is only the work of God.
Sanctification requires our cooperation.

 

[bbyrd009]

No man can fulfill the law.

yet you must fulfill the law, and you are called to be perfect, as He is perfect, so you got a dichotomy here, because when one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you don't give them what the body needs, what good is it?

iow those who say that it cannot be done should at least avoid getting in the way of those doing it,
And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge
you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law?

 

[bbyrd009]

I guess that means Jesus didn't need to do it for us, right?

pick up your cross, and follow Me seems the correct reply to that, and you might seek out the Greeks who came to worship Jesus, and Jesus hid from them too. This worshipping of (Nehushtan) as Jesus is put many other ways as well; no man may die for the sins of another, Christ even mentions "Snake on a Pole" to send one in this direction

 

[Job]

***
No man can fulfill the law. That is why Jesus fulfilled it FOR US. No man can fulfill the law. The law condemns all men because NO MAN CAN KEEP IT. But it seems that some think they can keep it. I guess that means Jesus didn't need to do it for us, right?

Galatians 5
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
>snip<
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


o

 

[bbyrd009]

Look, the idea that anyone can say the book of James was written to all makes what James said in James 1:1 a lie. Either what he wrote in James 1:1 was to the Jews as he said it was or he lied. You can't make a truth out of a lie.

yet Jews do not even read the NT, and the Scriptural case for you being Israel now is being negated so that you don't have to actually pick up your cross and follow, at least that is how that is tracking. You are maintaining here that James had some special instructions for Jews, when that is obviously not true, right, so what might be better is to understand James 1:1 is talking to any believer, regardless of who it is addressed to.

Those under grace did not become Jews or Israel.

15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

brought out in other places in other ways, too, Israel proper was divorced by God, etc.

 

[Dcopymope]

***
You gave reasons that are not supported by the scriptures.
--
""Hmmm..the following scriptures backs up this assertion, that Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to establish the law within our hearts.
The law written in our hearts:""
---
The above is what I replied too.

The above is your writing and it not why He came.

So I guess the prophet Jeremiah was a liar than Mr. Richard.

 

[Dcopymope]

Galatians 5
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

Romans 13
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
>snip<
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

o

(Matthew 22:36-40) "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? {37} Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. {38} This is the first and great commandment. {39} And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. {40} On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

This shouldn't be too hard for a real believer to do, but than again, Jesus Christ himself said that this won't be the case for everyone proclaiming to be a 'child of God'.

(Matthew 7:21-23) "¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. {22} Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

 

[Job]

o

This shouldn't be too hard for a real believer to do, but than again, Jesus Christ himself said that this won't be the case for everyone proclaiming to be a 'child of God'.

2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.


o

 

[H. Richard]

sounds like a much healthier idea, ya

ha i almost asked the same Q, but obviously many "pastors" have de facto "laws" for their congregants i guess, so he also has a point imo

***

• No one is trying to throw out the book of James. But to force it into the age of grace is making it a lie. James wrote to the Jews, he said so. Is that throwing it out?

 

[Job]

Look, the idea that anyone can say the book of James was written to all makes what James said in James 1:1 a lie.

How can someone who claims to be a believer also claim the Word of God is a lie?

o

 

[H. Richard]

so you say, but that the grace Church is adopted Israel and that the Jews were dispersed because God divorced them is maybe not getting a hearing in your mind, causing you to qualify a Book of NT Scripture as being for "a Jew, only," when we are told that there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, in the kingdom.

So iow you might be accused of hearing with the same hearing as those James wrote his Book to, but that does not mean that that is the best way to hear, as you supposedly know better than those, who had not yet accepted that "there is no Jew or Greek in the kingdom."

understand that this is just a perspective, ok, i don't personally care if you accept James or not, and faith without works is dead regardless of James anyway

***
So Jesus needs a person's works to complete the salvation He gave to all by paying for their sins. I don't think so.

 

[Job]

***

• No one is trying to throw out the book of James. But to force it into the age of grace is making it a lie. James wrote to the Jews, he said so. Is that throwing it out?

2 Corinthians 4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,

o

 

[GodsGrace]

***

• No one is trying to throw out the book of James. But to force it into the age of grace is making it a lie. James wrote to the Jews, he said so. Is that throwing it out?

Yes.
Everyone seems to hang on tight to their very own idea.
I've asked you previously to show your source for this idea that James is not for every Christian.
You never did.

Let me ask you this:
Who was Mathew written to?

 

[bbyrd009]

***

• No one is trying to throw out the book of James. But to force it into the age of grace is making it a lie. James wrote to the Jews, he said so. Is that throwing it out?

i dunno, honestly. Or rather i am biased, i guess. I see a lot of cautionary Scripture about merely being a cryer of "Lord, Lord," but it occurs to me that there is no analog for the far side of that that i am aware of, iow is it possible to love one's neighbor too much, and have too little...reverence, or whatever?

but tbh i think our chief disagreement is about works of the law v good deeds, which can appear to be synonymous

 

[H. Richard]

Will write again from home.

I agree that we are justified by faith alone.
No way could we work for our salvation.
If so, Jesus would not have had to atone for our sons.

But do works not come after salvation?
After salvation, is there not sanctification?
Justification is only the work of God.
Sanctification requires our cooperation.

***

1 Cor 6:10-12
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Glorify God in Body and Spirit 12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
NKJV

To put myself under the law would mean I am under the power of the law.

• We are not washed, or sanctified, or justified by what we do, period. It is what the Holy Spirit does. If it is by man's works then this scripture is a lie. Salvation is the work that Jesus accomplished on the cross. Either you believe in what He did or you don't.