Was James confused?

[H. Richard]

yet you must fulfill the law, and you are called to be perfect, as He is perfect, so you got a dichotomy here, because when one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you don't give them what the body needs, what good is it?

iow those who say that it cannot be done should at least avoid getting in the way of those doing it,
And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge
you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law?

***
When a person becomes a child of God they have the righteousness of God imputed to them. If you wish to be judged by the law that is your choice.

 

[H. Richard]

pick up your cross, and follow Me seems the correct reply to that, and you might seek out the Greeks who came to worship Jesus, and Jesus hid from them too. This worshipping of (Nehushtan) as Jesus is put many other ways as well; no man may die for the sins of another, Christ even mentions "Snake on a Pole" to send one in this direction

***
The cross you are to pickup isn't trying not to sin. It is placing faith in Jesus' work on the cross without reverting to legalism.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
So Jesus needs a person's works to complete the salvation He gave to all by paying for their sins. I don't think so.

well then judge, and see if you are not judged i guess. Why forgive, if you are already forgiven? i wouldn't say that Jesus needs anything; it is us who needs to follow. If you have no works, your faith is dead; it becomes a belief, an ideal, a slogan on the wall. 2 Hebrews made it to the Promised Land not by believing, as the million plus others did, but by following. You need your works--which you are going to do anyway, right, you get out of bed in the morning for some reason, after all; it is to do stuff, works--to demonstrate your faith, otherwise those works that you are doing right now are demonstrating what you in fact have faith in anyway, your actions speak louder than your words iow

 

[H. Richard]

o


2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.


o

 

[bbyrd009]

When a person becomes a child of God they have the righteousness of God imputed to them.

so it may then only remain to determine just when a person actually becomes a child of God, and perhaps question your current definition there, as i do myself, because obviously that does not automatically happen at profession right

 

[bbyrd009]

The cross you are to pickup isn't trying not to sin.

i agree with you there, that is a horrible concept

 

[H. Richard]

o


2 Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.


o

***
That is what I have been saying. The truth iss that the bookof James was written to the Jews, James 1:1. To say otherwise is fulfilling verse 4 that you posted.

 

[H. Richard]

How can someone who claims to be a believer also claim the Word of God is a lie?

o

***
Ge off your high horse. I never said James lied, That is what those that claim he wrote to the Gentiles are doing. They are saying James lied in verse 1:1.

 

[H. Richard]

so it may then only remain to determine just when a person actually becomes a child of God, and perhaps question your current definition there, as i do myself, because obviously that does not automatically happen at profession right

***
It happens the moment a person understands they are sinful and have no way of making themselves un-sinful and understand that God has made a way for them to be saved and that way is to place faith in HIS work on the cross.

 

[H. Richard]

Yes.
Everyone seems to hang on tight to their very own idea.
I've asked you previously to show your source for this idea that James is not for every Christian.
You never did.

Let me ask you this:
Who was Mathew written to?

***
The OT is a history of God dealing with mankind and it includes God selecting a people for His purpose. The 4 gospels are written to proclaim how He came to the Jews to give them the promised kingdom of heaven on earth and it detail the rejection by the Jews. The book of Acts is a transitional book in the it transitions from law to grace. The book of Hebrews is a book to get the Jews to see that faith in what Jesus did on the cross is much better than the Jewish religion based on the law.

 

[H. Richard]

i dunno, honestly. Or rather i am biased, i guess. I see a lot of cautionary Scripture about merely being a cryer of "Lord, Lord," but it occurs to me that there is no analog for the far side of that that i am aware of, iow is it possible to love one's neighbor too much, and have too little...reverence, or whatever?

but tbh i think our chief disagreement is about works of the law v good deeds, which can appear to be synonymous

***
Can't you see it. The only love that fulfills the law is the love that Jesus poured out on the cross on our behalf. Man's love is bias and subject to the human sinful condition.

 

[Armadillo]

***
That is what I have been saying. The truth iss that the bookof James was written to the Jews, James 1:1. To say otherwise is fulfilling verse 4 that you posted.

And for verse 3, the Shepherd applies oil to the ears of His sheep to keep the flies off, to stop the fly from annoying us. Those pesky flies accuse, lie and whisper in your ear that you need to love your neighbor more coz you fail at this. Ears itch like crazy when the law is preached!

The Greek for Beelzebub is "lord of the flies" and Jesus was accused of being linked to them.

Matthew 12:24, But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

 

[bbyrd009]

and that way is to place faith in HIS work on the cross.

Scripture is clear what your faith without works will get you, Richard, and if Scripture cannot convince you i don't see how i might

 

[bbyrd009]

***
Can't you see it. The only love that fulfills the law is the love that Jesus poured out on the cross on our behalf. Man's love is bias and subject to the human sinful condition.

a good deed covers many sins

 

[H. Richard]

And for verse 3, the Shepherd applies oil to the ears of His sheep to keep the flies off, to stop the fly from annoying us. Those pesky flies accuse, lie and whisper in your ear that you need to love your neighbor more coz you fail at this. Ears itch like crazy when the law is preached!

The Greek for Beelzebub is "lord of the flies" and Jesus was accused of being linked to them.

Matthew 12:24, But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

***
So we are to lie and say James wrote to the Gentiles too. That doesn't make sense.

Don't you know that I can see what some are doing? If I don't tow the line they wish they will do just as the Pharisees did when they lied about Jesus.

I have proclaimed that James was writing to the Jews only and for that I am called to task. James told the world WHO he was writing to and to say he left out the Gentiles is a lie. The truth is the truth and and those that just can't see the words will believe the lie.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
Can't you see it. The only love that fulfills the law is the love that Jesus poured out on the cross on our behalf. Man's love is bias and subject to the human sinful condition.

and if we go back to where we agreed, it might be seen that churches maybe traditionally focussed on the sin more than the good deeds, perhaps, yes. "Trying not to sin" is a terrible way to present salvation, i agree there

 

[ScottA]

I hope this is not taken the wrong way. It is not intended to offend anyone. These are my personal thoughts based on what the scriptures actually say and put in this study.

The old saying that James and Paul were teaching the same thing, or that the word “works” each used do not mean the same thing, just doesn’t get it for me. --- One must understand that Paul addressed his letters to the Gentile churches he founded. James wrote his letter to the Jews who were scattered over the other countries (James 1:1). James’ letter was not addressed to the same churches that Paul’s letters were addressed

The study:

Was James confused? Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?

James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)

FACT! No, he was not! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

FACT! Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that he did. There is nothing in Genesis 15 that mentions any works that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James did not consider the account in Genesis 15. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.

James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

FACT! Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.

FACT! What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Genesis 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.

In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. However, it was compatible with the law. Since the word of God has to be based on truth, I find the book of James is not based on the truth and is highly suspect.

Here are some more facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.

1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)

6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
11. The shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not mentioned.

Romans 4:1-7 Abraham Justified by Faith.
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV

The two (James and Paul) do not disagree. This is "two-edged sword" effect of the word. Each has built what they were given upon the same foundation of truth, each addressing different issues.

For example: If John wrote "the path runs north, by the sea", and Paul wrote, "the path runs south by way of the mountains"...it does not mean it is a different path or that one is right and the other wrong. It means they gave different directions and told of different accounts for different reasons.

 

[bbyrd009]

If I don't tow the line they wish they will do just as the Pharisees did when they lied about Jesus.

ah, the difference perhaps being that i--for an example here--am not presenting any line for you to toe, see

go and do your own good deeds, your way imo

or even don't, it does not matter, your deeds will still be how you are known.

We are known by our deeds

and in this sense--and please hear what i am saying here, not what you want to make of it--i am not impressed by anyone who rushes to tell me how they are saved by the precious bleeding blood of their Lord Jesus, and that is all that they need to do, because the Bible presents other perspectives that should not be ignored, James notwithstanding, as may be seen in the link.

 

[H. Richard]

Scripture is clear what your faith without works will get you, Richard, and if Scripture cannot convince you i don't see how i might

***

Good try but an empty one.

Eph 2:4-9
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

So, are you saying verse 9 above is a lie?

It is a GIFT from God. You do not work to obtain a gift.
For anyone to continue to say we must have works is calling the above scripture a lie. But it is evident that some will insist on adding their works to salvation.

 

[Helen]

The two (James and Paul) do not disagree. This is "two-edged sword" effect of the word. Each has built what they were given upon the same foundation of truth, each addressing different issues.

For example: If John wrote "the path runs north, by the sea", and Paul wrote, "the path runs south by way of the mountains"...it does not mean it is a different path or that one is right and the other wrong. It means they gave different directions and told of different accounts for different reasons.

Well said Scott.

@H. Richard You started a really good and interesting Thread here. Thank you!