Was Jesus a 'created being?'

[Waiting on him]

And also a bit ridiculous. lol
How can anyone be in existence without being created..... in a world that wasn't created first??

God.

 

[face2face]

I've mentioned this in numerous threads and yet not one Trinitarian can adequately explain what the term “firstborn of all creation” mean's in the context of the old creation?

Both Trinitarians and Unitarians reject the idea that Jesus was the first ever created.

It's comforting to know Paul explains it for us: Jesus’ status as “firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15) refers to the fact that he was the “firstborn from among the dead” (Colossians 1:18; cf. Romans 8:29, Hebrews 1:6, Hebrews 12:23, Revelation 1:5).

This is not the language of the old creation. This is new creation language!

The problem is this - Jesus' existence is pinned to those "among the dead", so any idea of Jesus pre-existing, must relate to the dead!

Failure to understand all the intricacies of his death will result in failure to understand precisely who the Christ is.

So when I go back and read all the posts... here how many identify with the Apostle Paul's teaching on Christ being the firstborn from the dead?

Answer: not many!

The Apostle Paul has opened a door for you to walk through - how many are willing to follow his lead? Ephesians 3:1

 

[Waiting on him]

Okay so are you saying that the first 4000 years before Christ actually came... after... Jesus came to earth?

The first 4k was a procreation.

 

[Matthias]

That was David talking.... read post #97.

I agree that it was David talking and that the psalm is applicable to him. The question is whether or not the psalm can also be applied to others besides David, i.e. to human persons in general. We find that it is used as an argument by some pro-life organizations and trinitarian commentators.

 

[Pearl]

Not certain what you are saying here.

Do you know about the account of Creation in Genesis? Your belief doesn't fit with the bible.

 

[TLHKAJ]

The first 4k was a procreation.

Lol ...no one procreates anymore?? How did you get here??! LOL

 

[TLHKAJ]

So when I go back and read all the posts... here how many identify with the Apostle Paul's teaching on Christ being the firstborn from the dead?

Answer: not many!

It's in scripture, so it's truth. No problem there. And probably the reason I've not replied to your posts much is bc I have you on ignore.

I am not familiar with all these twisted versions of "gospel." So your terminologies are not something that make sense to me.

The NT speaks of being a new creation not in terms of no one having to come through the womb ...but the new birth when we come to faith in the (true) Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29
[29]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

John 1:12-13
[12]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

According to John chapter one, we have to believe and receive HIM .....Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh who was God ...in order to receive power to become a son of God. This is the new creation. It is a spiritual birth, not of the flesh.

 

[Episkopos]

I've mentioned this in numerous threads and yet not one Trinitarian can adequately explain what the term “firstborn of all creation” mean's in the context of the old creation?

Both Trinitarians and Unitarians reject the idea that Jesus was the first ever created.

It's comforting to know Paul explains it for us: Jesus’ status as “firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15) refers to the fact that he was the “firstborn from among the dead” (Colossians 1:18; cf. Romans 8:29, Hebrews 1:6, Hebrews 12:23, Revelation 1:5).

This is not the language of the old creation. This is new creation language!

The problem is this - Jesus' existence is pinned to those "among the dead", so any idea of Jesus pre-existing, must relate to the dead!

Failure to understand all the intricacies of his death will result in failure to understand precisely who the Christ is.

So when I go back and read all the posts... here how many identify with the Apostle Paul's teaching on Christ being the firstborn from the dead?

Answer: not many!

The Apostle Paul has opened a door for you to walk through - how many are willing to follow his lead? Ephesians 3:1

I do. Jesus is the first-born of the New Creation. He had to make a way for us to become part of that New Creation. None of us was worthy to open a gap in the law of sin and death.

I'm neither a Trinitarian nor a Unitarian...nor one who denies that Jesus is part of the GodHead (Humanitarian).

I'm of that very rare breed that takes the whole counsel of God into consideration.

Jesus is fully man: This is actually denied by Trinitarians in substance...although the creeds make a point to giver lip-service to that doctrine. (creeds are just lip service anyway). Jesus was created in His humanity.

Jesus is fully God:This is too much of a mystery for those who understand the humanity of Jesus. Jesus was begotten into His divinity. The smaller part of the greater whole that is the Father.

But the Bible supports both of these assertions. Missing one of the dualities makes it impossible to grow into Christ-likeness.

We are indeed fully human. But we also need to walk as Jesus walked...in His perfected humanity. Hardly anybody understands that this is what the gospel is about.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
• Col 1:15 . . He is the firstborn of all creation

The Greek word translated "firstborn" in that verse is prototokos, which
never means created first; no, it always means born first. The correct Greek
word for created first is protoktistos.

The thing to note is that "firstborn" doesn't always refer to birth order. The
term also refers to rank and/or pay grade, so to speak, and as such is
transferrable from an elder sibling to a younger, e.g. Esau to Jacob (Gen
25:23) Manasseh to Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben to Joseph (Gen
49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1).

The people of Israel are God's firstborn nation (Ex 4:22) and David is God's
firstborn king on earth (Ps 89:20-27). But neither David nor the people of
Israel are, or were, the firstborn of all creation; they were/are firstborn only
in their respective positions.

Now, it appears from Ps 110:1, Matt 22:41-16, and Phil 2:8-11 that David
has been placed under one of his sons; and that's because David's firstborn
superiority is limited to the Earth, whereas Christ's firstborn superiority is
unlimited. (Dan 7:13-14, John 3:35, 1Cor 15:27, Phil 2:8-11, Heb 1:2)
_

 

[Waiting on him]

I've mentioned this in numerous threads and yet not one Trinitarian can adequately explain what the term “firstborn of all creation” mean's in the context of the old creation?

Both Trinitarians and Unitarians reject the idea that Jesus was the first ever created.

It's comforting to know Paul explains it for us: Jesus’ status as “firstborn of all creation” (Colossians 1:15) refers to the fact that he was the “firstborn from among the dead” (Colossians 1:18; cf. Romans 8:29, Hebrews 1:6, Hebrews 12:23, Revelation 1:5).

This is not the language of the old creation. This is new creation language!

The problem is this - Jesus' existence is pinned to those "among the dead", so any idea of Jesus pre-existing, must relate to the dead!

Failure to understand all the intricacies of his death will result in failure to understand precisely who the Christ is.

So when I go back and read all the posts... here how many identify with the Apostle Paul's teaching on Christ being the firstborn from the dead?

Answer: not many!

The Apostle Paul has opened a door for you to walk through - how many are willing to follow his lead? Ephesians 3:1

I believe According to Paul this birth took place prior to Jesus’s physical death and resurrection, as also with those of us that are born of God.

the second death has no power.

 

[face2face]

It's in scripture, so it's truth. No problem there. And probably the reason I've not replied to your posts much is bc I have you on ignore.

I am not familiar with all these twisted versions of "gospel." So your terminologies are not something that make sense to me.

The NT speaks of being a new creation not in terms of no one having to come through the womb ...but the new birth when we come to faith in the (true) Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:29
[29]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

John 1:12-13
[12]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

According to John chapter one, we have to believe and receive HIM .....Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh who was God ...in order to receive power to become a son of God. This is the new creation. It is a spiritual birth, not of the flesh.

You just did what I said many have done here and that is ignore the fact that Jesus' existence is connected to his death i.e firstborn from the dead!

What's odd is you then quote John 1:12-13 to say Jesus (who you believe is God) was born of God . If you believe that to be true, why does the Scripture continually reminds us that Jesus "lives for evermore?"...if you believe he is God.

Revelation 1:18.

 

[APAK]

You just did what I said many have done here and that is ignore the fact that Jesus' existence is connected to his death i.e firstborn from the dead!

What odds is you then quote John 1:12&13 to say Jesus (who you believe is God) was born of God. If you believe that to be true, why does the Scripture continually reminds us that Jesus "lives for evermore?"...if you believe he is God.

Revelation 1:18.

I would like to say checkmate, well done!

 

[face2face]

Jesus is fully God:This is too much of a mystery for those who understand the humanity of Jesus. Jesus was begotten into His divinity. The smaller part of the greater whole that is the Father.

If you introduce doctrinal error into the Bible you get the red text...truth can be known - error cannot.

 

[face2face]

Here is another question which relates to his death. Did Jesus benefit from his own death? Of course, the Trinitarian is forced to say no, as a result of him being God and already part of the Godhead, however the Scripture clearly states he did.

"He (Jesus) became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him" Phil 2

So we have context "obedient unto death" REWARD for his obedience and faith was "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him"

God does not exalt God
God is not obedient to God
God does not die and cannot die
God does not reward Himself
Jesus is not given a reward which was always in his possession

Can you think of another verse which highlights Jesus benefiting from his own death?

 

[Episkopos]

Here is another question which relates to his death. Did Jesus benefit from his own death? Of course, the Trinitarian is forced to say no, as a result of him being God and already part of the Godhead, however the Scripture clearly states he did.

"He (Jesus) became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him" Phil 2

So we have context "obedient unto death" REWARD for his obedience and faith was "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him"

I'm not a Trinitarian, but I know that Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus indeed benefited from His own death and resurrection. Jesus is fully human as well as being fully God. People tend to be one-sided and therefore lack the balance that is in the truth. Trinitarians err on the side of denying the humanity of Jesus just as you are denying His divinity. The human mind is very limited when it comes to God's ways.

Jesus not only elevated Himself through His sacrifice and resurrection, but mankind as well. As a human, Jesus is exalted over all things. Of course, the scale of the greatness of the Father is off the charts.

The Son also glorified the Father both as a man AND as part of the GodHead. In turn the Father glorifies the Son as a human AND in His eternal responsibilities as His Son.

Through the New Creation God has increased in wealth...wealth of glory and praise and worship that never existed before.

A farmer plants a field. When the crop is ready to be harvested the farmer increases in wealth...reaping as he has sown.

Now God creates a human. Very little glory there...but those humans increase in numbers until they cover the face of the earth. Whereas there was very little fruit of glory possible in one human, the return on God's investment in His Creation now becomes unlimited. So God is reaping what He has not directly sown...but His renown and glory are spreading throughout the world. This is the benefit to God of preaching the gospel. One supreme act....and a non-stop return on greater reaping. Jesus Christ has a part in that increase because He made it all possible.

God does not exalt God

This is where the human carnal mind is shown to be insufficient in understanding the ways of God. The Father exalts the Son as the Son exalts the Father. They share One Spirit but are separate Persons. There is increase for both...unselfishly...because that is the nature of God. Even a smaller piece of a pie increases as the pie gets bigger.

God is not obedient to God

Would you be happier if the Son was disobedient to the Father and sought a separate path from Him?

God does not die and cannot die

That was the miscalculation of the devil... Death cannot hold God. So although Jesus died as a man He cannot die as God...so with His resurrection comes a NEW Creation. Jesus is then the firstborn from the dead and the firstfuits of the New Creation. Jesus conquered death because death could not hold Him. The wages of sin is death...but the wages of God is NOT death...it is LIFE. Death cannot trump eternal life. Death can only put an end to temporal things. We live in a SIMULATION of eternal reality. In reality there is no death. That eternal quality of life is now available to us through Him.

God does not reward Himself

Jesus is not the Father. Why wouldn't the Father be pleased that the Son has won more glory for them both?

Jesus is not given a reward which was always in his possession

Are you saying that humanity was already redeemed? A great king has many subjects. Are you saying the greatness of the king doesn't increase when His kingdom increases?

Can you think of another verse which highlights Jesus benefiting from his own death?

"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Is. 9:7

 

[face2face]

I'm not a Trinitarian, but I know that Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus indeed benefited from His own death and resurrection. Jesus is fully human as well as being fully God. People tend to be one-sided and therefore lack the balance that is in the truth.

So in truth, you don't believe he benefited from his own death', otherwise you would be able to identify how and all you gave is the T formula.

Trinitarians err on the side of denying the humanity of Jesus just as you are denying His divinity. The human mind is very limited when it comes to God's ways.

Rubbish! Read Ephesians 3

Where did the Apostle Paul write of this secret hidden mystery that only you seem to know? Chapter and verse please?

Jesus not only elevated Himself through His sacrifice and resurrection, but mankind as well. As a human, Jesus is exalted over all things. Of course, the scale of the greatness of the Father is off the charts.

The fully God part makes a mockery of your own teaching!

God elevated the Christ - but show me a verse that states Jesus raised himself from the grave?

Though it is true, Jesus and those with him manifested the Fathers Glory and are exalted as a result.

The Son also glorified the Father both as a man AND as part of the GodHead. In turn the Father glorifies the Son as a human AND in His eternal responsibilities as His Son.

You believe in the Trinity - own it! or deny it?

Through the New Creation God has increased in wealth...wealth of glory and praise and worship that never existed before.

(head shaking) God doesnt need our Praise or wealth of Glory - where do you get this rot?

A farmer plants a field. When the crop is ready to be harvested the farmer increases in wealth...reaping as he has sown.

Now God creates a human. Very little glory there...but those humans increase in numbers until they cover the face of the earth. Whereas there was very little fruit of glory possible in one human, the return on God's investment in His Creation now becomes unlimited. So God is reaping what He has not directly sown...but His renown and glory are spreading throughout the world. This is the benefit to God of preaching the gospel. One supreme act....and a non-stop return on greater reaping. Jesus Christ has a part in that increase because He made it all possible.


This is where the human carnal mind is shown to be insufficient in understanding the ways of God. The Father exalts the Son as the Son exalts the Father. They share One Spirit but are separate Persons. There is increase for both...unselfishly...because that is the nature of God. Even a smaller piece of a pie increases as the pie gets bigger.

God is Glory full stop and He doesnt increase what He already is - other's may be invited to share in Him! you have a bizarre way of looking at Scripture and without Bible references also, which is note worthy.

Would you be happier if the Son was disobedient to the Father and sought a separate path from Him?

It was possible you know? That's what makes the Son unique - he was like us in every respect (absolutely no difference) Hebrews 2:17 Hebrews 4:15 and so on...

That was the miscalculation of the devil... Death cannot hold God.

But it did for the Son for 3 days in the tomb. No miscalculation!

Did your Christ taste death or not? If you say yes - He cannot be God - if you say No - you have no forgiveness of sins

Jesus is not the Father. Why wouldn't the Father be pleased that the Son has won more glory for them both?

He was pleased in every way that he rewarded his beloved Son but how can you reward someone with something already in their possession?

Answer: You cant!

Your idea of "winning Glory" is flawed...Tell me what is lacking in God from 1 Timothy 6:16 ? Insufficient Glory you say? God is able to increase His Glory you say?...have more of what He already has? You dont understand who Yahweh is or His plan for the earth that is clear.

Are you saying that humanity was already redeemed? A great king has many subjects. Are you saying the greatness of the king doesn't increase when His kingdom increases?

If Jesus is fully God as you say he is - what was Jesus' reward? - I'll give you a clue Revelation 1:18

"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Is. 9:7

Good verse...sounds like a reward for probation & faith to me.

 

[MatthewG]

No Jesus was not a created being.

He existed as the Word of God, when God said let there be light in the beginning. The Word came down and was born in Flesh.

 

[face2face]

No Jesus was not a created being.

He existed as the Word of God

He became the Word of God - BIG difference.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God elevated the Christ - but show me a verse that states Jesus raised himself from the grave?

19 “All right,” Jesus replied. “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So in truth, you don't believe he benefited from his own death', otherwise you would be able to identify how and all you gave is the T formula.



Rubbish! Read Ephesians 3

Where did the Apostle Paul write of this secret hidden mystery that only you seem to know? Chapter and verse please?



The fully God part makes a mockery of your own teaching!

God elevated the Christ - but show me a verse that states Jesus raised himself from the grave?

Though it is true, Jesus and those with him manifested the Fathers Glory and are exalted as a result.



You believe in the Trinity - own it! or deny it?



(head shaking) God doesnt need our Praise or wealth of Glory - where do you get this rot?



God is Glory full stop and He doesnt increase what He already is - other's may be invited to share in Him! you have a bizarre way of looking at Scripture and without Bible references also, which is note worthy.




It was possible you know? That's what makes the Son unique - he was like us in every respect (absolutely no difference) Hebrews 2:17 Hebrews 4:15 and so on...



But it did for the Son for 3 days in the tomb. No miscalculation!

Did your Christ taste death or not? If you say yes - He cannot be God - if you say No - you have no forgiveness of sins



He was pleased in every way that he rewarded his beloved Son but how can you reward someone with something already in their possession?

Answer: You cant!

Your idea of "winning Glory" is flawed...Tell me what is lacking in God from 1 Timothy 6:16 ? Insufficient Glory you say? God is able to increase His Glory you say?...have more of what He already has? You dont understand who Yahweh is or His plan for the earth that is clear.



If Jesus is fully God as you say he is - what was Jesus' reward? - I'll give you a clue Revelation 1:18



Good verse...sounds like a reward for probation & faith to me.

This is a bad, bad spirit.