Was Jesus a spirit being before coming to earth as a human?

[Bob Estey]

Mk 13:32: “Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father


Do you believe Jesus when he said this Bob: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” ?

As for the first issue of Jesus not knowing the hour: I believe Jesus was here, among other reasons, to set an example for us. He was playing a role. In that role he did not know the hour.

Yes, I believe Jesus's statement. Again, I believe he was setting an example for us. It is not for us to have people worship us, so Jesus told us we are not to worship him, but only God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes, Jesus was a spiritual being before God changed him into human form.


As I understand it, Jesus existed with God before the universe was created. The whole universe, and all physical life on earth, was created by Jesus as directed by God. Even all the heavenly spirit beings - angels, cherubim and seraphim - were also created by Jesus. So Jesus could not have been a physical being at that time (physical matter had yet to be created), and therefore he could only have been a spiritual being.

Colossians 1 (WEB):

(16) For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
(17) He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.​

Revelation 3:14 (TLV):

(14) To the angel of Messiah’s community in Laodicea write: “Thus says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Originator of God’s creation:​

Jesus is now a spirit being again, and Christians are promised, as members of Christ's body, that they will have the same nature as Jesus now has - the divine nature - the highest form of spirit being, having immortality:

John 4:24 (WEB): God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
John 17:5 (WEB): Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

(God more than answered that prayer, granting him the immortal divine nature - previously he was mortal.)​

2 Peter 1:4 (WEB): ... he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature.

You are correct Keith, although God is the creator, and everything was created through Jesus' hands, with the exception of Jesus himself of course.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Greeting
how did Christ come?
This was my answer
In 1 John 5:7-9 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.

In John 16:12-15, I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truths; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Then in 1John 4:6, We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this, we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

In John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus the Christ.

a Note
That which is born of the flesh is flesh. John 3:6

This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness because the Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6
And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 1 John 5:8
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. John 19:34; See Zech 12: 10.

Hi One, I think you have over complicated the answer to the question sir, the Bible records that Jesus came to the earth in the flesh, no one has debated that, however an individual inferred that Jesus was not a spirit being prior to coming to earth, which prompted me to take up this thread. He was absolutely correct that the Bible does not point blank say Jesus was a spirit being before coming to earth, yet I felt that most people just understood that, and apparently they did, as no one else promotes him as being fleshly, even the individual who said it recanted.

 

[Robert Gwin]

As for the first issue of Jesus not knowing the hour: I believe Jesus was here, among other reasons, to set an example for us. He was playing a role. In that role he did not know the hour.

Yes, I believe Jesus's statement. Again, I believe he was setting an example for us. It is not for us to have people worship us, so Jesus told us we are not to worship him, but only God.

Yes sir, and it is that obedience to his teachings that save Bob. If one worships and serves Jehovah exclusively as Jesus stated at Mat 4:10, he certainly is in line for salvation.

 

[Truman]

"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." - Isaiah 9:6
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." - Luke 2:11
"…23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” 25The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us.”…"
"
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." - John 14:6-1
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth" - John 4:24
"I and the Father are one.” - John 10:30
Yes, I'd say that Jesus was a spirit being before coming to earth.

 

[Grailhunter]

Johannine Comma

Well most believe that the Johannine Comma Addition existed first as study notes in the margins. It was the official Roman formula for the Trinity....something else....a word that does not appear in the Bible.

The Textus Receptus does not fair well under modern scrutiny which points out several hundred errors.
Besides type set errors the Textus Recepus itself inherited errors from Greek Texts that themselves had errors. As in additional scriptures that were not in older manuscripts.

A good and accurate study of this can be done by comparing the NIV and the NASB. The NIV does not include the verses from later copies of the manuscripts but the NASB includes them but puts them in brackets explaining that these verses did not appear in earlier manuscripts. For example the story of the adulterous woman brought before Christ, did not appear in the older manuscripts and has always raised logical questions. The Jews did not stone people at the temple. A public execution like that would draw the fire of the Romans. This is one of the reasons that Jews did not kill Christ...they had the Romans do it. Where was the adulterous man?

 

[Grailhunter]

I think Jesus was God in flesh, so it was correct to call him Emmanuel (God with us).

Good name....but did they actually call Him that?

 

[Grailhunter]

Was Yeshua in the Old Testament? Was He a God before He was born? Was He a Spirit?

It could be said that mainstream Christianity believes in the pre-existent Christ. And there is biblical support for this….

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
The Gospel of John 1:1-12

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself….Luke 24:27

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am. So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple….John 8:58-59

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began….. John 17:5

Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world….. John 17:24

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:16-17

----In the beginning Yahweh created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1-----Will the real creator God please stand up! In most of our Bibles the name of God the Father has been removed and it presents a false perspective. So the Old Testament scriptures read God and or the Lord, where it was originally Yahweh. So in the interest of accuracy, God’s name will appear in the following scriptures.

For this is what the Lord Yahweh says—he who created the heavens, he is Yahweh; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited—he says: “I am the Yahweh, and there is no other… Isaiah 45:18

Thus says the Lord Yahweh, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord Yahweh, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself….Isaiah 44:24 (The words Redeemer, Savior, and Salvation in the Old Testament confuse some Christians because they usually refer to either saving people’s lives or freeing them from their oppressors. And it usually refers to God but also the human warlord king messiah.)

Hear, O Israel: The Lord Yahweh our God, Yahweh is one. You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command to you today shall be on your heart…..Deuteronomy 6:4-5

Remember the former things long past, For I am Yahweh, and there is no other; I am Yahweh, and there is no one like Me…..Isaiah 46:9

You were shown these things so that you might know that Yahweh is God; besides him there is no other….Deuteronomy 4:35

You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all…..Nehemiah 9:6

For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art Yahweh alone…..Psalm 86:10

That men may know that thou, whose name alone is YAHWEH, art the most high over all the earth……Psalm 83:18.

If you put Yahweh’s name back into the scriptures it is very easy to see that the Old Testament is speaking of one God…Yahweh. So these two sets of scriptures do in themselves produce a conundrum of understanding and it is not just the wording of the scriptures. In itself, The Hebrew / Israelite / Jewish religion of the Old Testament was absolutely monolithic by definition….even though they did worship other gods. And this is one of the reasons that the Jews consider Christianity to be a false religion. It was considered idolatry to believe in or pray to a different God. This understanding of the One God thing in the Old Testament was why it was so important for Christianity to formulate a one God belief in the New Testament….and with Yahweh being called God or Lord thousands of times in the Old Testament it was easier to deceive.

One God in the Old Testament and one God in the New Testament….right! The deception is working as planned. With God’s name appearing in the original scriptures nearly 6,000 times it was obvious it was one God, one person….and no Godhead like the Trinity. No Jew coined the word Trinity. Gods with more than one aspect only appeared in Pagan religions. But when Yahweh’s name was removed from the Old Testament and replaced with the words God or Lord….most people did not notice the deception and a lot of Christians do not think that God's name is important.

Which is one of the main reasons for the doctrine of the Trinity by the Roman Ecumenical Councils. The early council’s primary focus was to unite the differing beliefs of Christians to one church. They could not come to an agreement on the differing beliefs between Yahweh and Yeshua so no agreement was made, instead the doctrine of the Trinity was made and then it was one God in the Old Testament and one God in the New Testament and no further objections could be heard upon pain of excommunication or death. This was not truth, but rather a silencing of beliefs.

Not even the grand inconsistencies within the doctrine itself were considered, things like in the New Testament where creation is contributed to Yeshua, but if it is one God, no event can be contributed to a single member of the Trinity….effectively they all did it. And then there is the issue of giving authority to yourself and why? Christ not doing His will but the will of another…..His Father.

Is it all a deception? The Roman Church thought that uniting Christianity as one church was paramount, even above truth. Does the means justify the end? It has been an age old questions….The answer….sometimes it is necessary….but the end will always be tainted.

Of course I do not believe in the one God formula of the Trinity but getting back to the topic at hand….the pre-existent Christ. Yahweh does not function as a trio in the Old Testament. They do not talk to one another, nor are certain events assigned or contributed to any God but Yahweh. If you were a Jew and were proclaiming that a God named Yeshua created the world, you would not live long. Same thing goes for proclaiming the Son of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

So is there away of explaining how Yeshua could have existed from the beginning? There is no possible biblical explanation. So people say the Jews did not / do not understand the Jewish scriptures and the Christians not understanding, suggest that Christians of other denominations do not understand the scriptures! The keywords are “not understanding” but still you cannot harmonize these scriptures……without additional information. But that additional information will fall on the deaf ears of the Fundamentalists, by design.

I have researched several topics and traveled the world looking for answers, but on this topic what gave me the most confidence that I would find an answer was listening to those that spoke in the Spirit. On several occasions I have heard people speaking in the Spirit talk of the Pre-existent Christ. And one of them was speaking of the event where Christ was talking to His Apostles about Himself being in the Old Testament. --- Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am. So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple….John 8:58-59

Christ spoke in parables, stories, and analogies, but when He would say “Truly truly” Ya better perk your ears up and switch the brain on! Because He is saying, this is an absolute fact. So at that point it was a personal thing to find out how this could be.

Of course when you are researching this topic you run into the beliefs of the pre-existence of souls….which was mostly condemned as heresy. Reviewing the writings of the Early Christian writers it can be seen that some were on board with the pre-existent Christ but few were in agreement that Christ was the creator God. Almighty God is Yahweh, God the Father as attested to by the surviving Christian writings and the Apostle's Creed.

The tally sheet would show that when the topic came up, most were in agreement with the Pre-existent Christ but very few, if any referred to Christ as the Almighty creator God.

The writings of the Early Church have been assembled on virtual libraries at these sites….

Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html

For me, this topic was left open for 30 years. In the meantime I had visited large Christian libraries here in the states which included Lanier. The universities in England, France, and Scotland, I missed my opportunity for the libraries in Sweden and Switzerland.

Of course this was not the only topic I was researching and as I progressed I continued to find examples…evidence of the belief of the pre-existent Christ, put no detailed explanation.

So then we get into the topic of Quantum science. My religion is Christianity but my profession has a lot to do with Quantum science. And some of the conversations I have had with Quantum scientists and professors is something I should share on the forum because it would surprise a lot of people. Sitting in those labs, offices, and cubicles you would be surprised what they would say. But either way I was at Los Alamos one evening and got into this conversation of the pre-existent Christ over pizza and sodas and this scientist said to me….It sounds like time coefficiency. What it means to them is the theory of the relativity of the space time continuum --- Albert Einstein.

This theory is way to complex to explain on this forum…but how it could apply to Christ I can give a simplified explanation. Or I will try. LOL

Picture yourself in an underground subway terminal. You get down to a room that is open at one end and the tracks are in front of you. The subway train is passing from left to right. As it passes, some of the cars are to the left of you and some of the cars are to the right of you. The train itself represents the ribbons of time that permeates the entire universe. At any instant of time, the car in front of you represents the present. The cars to the left of you represent the future…that has not occurred yet. The cars to your right represent the past.

As it relates to God the Father and God Son….God the Father is in every car….past, present, and future. His existence in the future is different than His presence in the past and the present…being less of His spirit but more as a vision or essence.

Christ boarded the train at his conception. Part of the characteristic of being a God is that they experience and interact with time differently than us…like…they were on this train. The instant Christ was conceived, it being a function of being a God, He existed in time....He was on every car past, present, and future.

In the past God the Father was wholly there and affecting what was going on. Christ was there also but as a vision or essence, not as the same as He was / is in the present. Not that God the Father did not know He was there and not that they could not communicate ….but there is not going to be anything in the Old Testament scriptures where Christ is affecting the physical. And in this perspective Yeshua would still be the Son of Yahweh and He would be witnessing all of history. Pardon my clumsy analogy and in this context Yeshua would be like a ghost that cannot make physical things move.

Now this explanation is not going to address the belief that Yeshua created the world… cannot help with that. And I have simplified this the best I can. Take it for what is worth. For me, it is good enough to believe as a possibility.

 

[keithr]

Now this explanation is not going to address the belief that Yeshua created the world… cannot help with that. And I have simplified this the best I can. Take it for what is worth. For me, it is good enough to believe as a possibility.

Neither does it explain why Jesus answered the question "when will these things happen? What will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?", by saying, "But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36).

Nor why God had to give Jesus information on what was going to happen:

Revelation 1:1 (WEB):

This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,​

 

[Grailhunter]

Neither does it explain why Jesus answered the question "when will these things happen? What will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?", by saying, "But no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36).

Nor why God had to give Jesus information on what was going to happen:

Revelation 1:1 (WEB):

This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, which he sent and made known by his angel to his servant, John,​

Well you need to read it again because it does answer all of that.
When Christ was conceived...He knew all that the Father wanted Him to know and He was aware of past history.

 

[Bob Estey]

Yes sir, and it is that obedience to his teachings that save Bob. If one worships and serves Jehovah exclusively as Jesus stated at Mat 4:10, he certainly is in line for salvation.

I agree, though I do want to add one thing. We need the blood of Jesus to save us from our past sins. And, as you say, we need to learn to obey the Lord's teachings.

 

[Bob Estey]

Good name....but did they actually call Him that?

The prophet did (Matthew 1:23).

 

[Grailhunter]

The prophet did (Matthew 1:23).

Yes we know that. How about scriptures that say....And Emmanuel said this or did that. And Emmanuel was crucified and resurrected.
Putting Emmanuel there most likely was making an Old Testament reference.

 

[Bob Estey]

Yes we know that. How about scriptures that say....And Emmanuel said this or did that. And Emmanuel was crucified and resurrected.
Putting Emmanuel there most likely was making an Old Testament reference.

I believe the Bible always tells the truth.

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe the Bible always tells the truth.

Is this the topic....if....the Bible tells the truth?

 

[Waiting on him]

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

meditate on this if you get a chance

 

[Waiting on him]

The account in the first chapter of the gospel of John in my opinion isn’t speaking of the cosmic creation, it speaking of His death burial and resurrection. This is when that light came into the world. The beginning in focus is of a new creation of which Jesus is the first created of the Spirit of God. This has in my opinion nothing to do do with His eternal being.

 

[Grailhunter]

The account in the first chapter of the gospel of John in my opinion isn’t speaking of the cosmic creation, it speaking of His death burial and resurrection. This is when that light came into the world. The beginning in focus is of a new creation of which Jesus is the first created of the Spirit of God. This has in my opinion nothing to do do with His eternal being.

Read the second line of post 68....already know it.

It does not help the Old Testament that says that Yahweh created the world.
And you should look up the Pagan history of the Logos.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Do you have scriptural evidence to support your viewpoint?

John 3:31,32; John 6:38 shows that the Only Begotten Son of God was in heaven before he came to Earth as a human.