I am thinking I am misunderstanding you Barn, as your other posts indicate to me that you don't really believe that, but I hope we are on the same page sir.
Was Jesus a spirit being before coming to earth as a human?
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I am thinking I am misunderstanding you Barn, as your other posts indicate to me that you don't really believe that, but I hope we are on the same page sir.
Yes, I may have misunderstood what you wrote. I thought you were implying, as others have, that God is outside of time, with time being a property of the physical universe that He created, and so He can see the past, present and future. I therefore assumed that you were implying that His son Jesus was also outside of time, and therefore he too should have been able to see into the future. Either you're in time, as we are, or not. I've not heard anyone claim that Jesus, or any being, can see into the past but not the future. In fact, referring to Jesus, you said, "He existed in time....He was on every car past, present, and future", so to me that implies he could see into the future, and yet the verses I quoted showed that he did not know fully what was going to happen in the future - he only knew what God revealed to him.
I must admit, I find it hard to grasp living outside of time! It's mind boggling to me, as is living in other dimensions, which I believe spirit beings do.
So did you and I... What's your point?
Jewish “Ideal” Preexistence
In the English language, and certainly the way young people speak, we often speak about something that happened in the past as though it is happening in the present. For instance, a witness to a bank robbery might say, “And here I am standing in line minding my own business, when bursting through the door comes as a hooded bank robber. He tells us all to get on the floor. He waves his gun around and threatens us. Then he goes up to the teller and yells, ‘Give me the money!’” We understand the events described occurred in the past, even though the narrative is in the present. Speaking of past events in the present is a peculiarity of the English language.
Most languages have peculiarities. The Hebrew mind and language has a peculiarity that English speakers are not accustomed to. They do the opposite of what I have just described. They often use the past tense or the present tense to speak of events yet future. The reason is that the Jews believed that whatever was determined in the mind of God existed before it came to be in history. God is the God who calls the things which do not exist as (already) existing (Rom. 4:17). God promised Abraham that He would give him the promised land and that he would be the father of many descendents. So sure is the fulfillment that sometimes the predictive language is in the past tense, as though it were already accomplished: “To your descendents I “have given” this land” (Gen 15:18). It came to be a common feature of Hebrew thinking that whatever God had decreed already preexisted (in plan and purpose) before it materialized on earth. “When the Jews wished to designate something as predestined, he spoke of it as already existing in heaven.
Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ “was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times” for our sakes who believe in God's word (1Pet. 1:20). This does not mean that Jesus personally preexisted his appearance on earth, because in the same chapter we find that Christians have also been in the “foreknowledge of God the Father” (1Pet. 1:2). The words “foreknowledge” and “foreknown,” noun and verb, are exactly alike. Peter uses precisely the same idea to refer to both Christians and Jesus. Christians do not preexisted heaven before our birth on earth nor did Jesus.
Similarly, the Bible speaks of Jesus as the Lamb of God who was crucified before the world began (Rev.13:8). Every Bible reader of course knows that Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate in Palestine in the first century. But God ordained his crucifixion to happen before he even created the universe. Therefore, in God's mind, and in the Hebrew understanding, that which came to be had already been. The prophetic future was spoken of in the past tense. What God has decreed, He says is as good as done.
In John 17, Jesus prays just before his arrest in the garden, “I glorify You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given me to do. And now, glorify me together with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” (v.4-5) If ever there was a statement that proved the personal preexistence of Jesus with the Father in heaven before he came to earth, surely this is it. Once again, we must caution against haste, for “In Biblical ways of speaking and thinking one may ‘have’ something which is promised in God's plan before one actually has its.” We have already seen this principle in operation, where God's plan of promises are spoken in the “prophetic past tense.” God promised Abraham, “I have given you this land.” God says to Christians, “You are seated with Christ in the heavenlies; you are already glorified (Eph. 2:6; Rom.8:30).
We have these things already in the plan and purpose of God -- even though we do not (yet) have them! Scripture tells us that we have eternal life as a present possession, even though clearly we await the day of our entrance into the life of the Age to come, whether by resurrection for those already dead, or the rapture of the living, when Christ returns. God calls the things that are not as though they already exist (Rom. 4:17). Clearly, in Hebrew thinking, the glory which Jesus had “with” God before the world was, it is the glory that it was present in God's mind and purpose from the beginning.
When we examine the rest of Jesus's prayer, it becomes quite clear that the glory Jesus claimed to have had “with the father before the world was” is a glory in prospect. Jesus is using the peculiar Hebrew way of thinking and speaking by which the past tense is employed to speak of the future. To confirm this all we need to do is follow Jesus’ prayer through. Jesus speaks as though he has already accomplished his work: he says I have “accomplished a work which you have gave me to do” (v.4). Quite obviously he has not actually finish the work because his crucifixion has not yet happened, and his cry from the cross, “It is finished,” has not yet been uttered. Next, Jesus speaks as though the disciples have already fully glorified him (through their preaching ministry) even though the resurrection has not yet happened: he prays, “I have been glorified in them” (v.10).
Jesus also says “I am no more in the world” (v.11) even though he clearly is still in the world. In his own mind, he is already, by faith in the father's promise, sitting in heaven having been resurrected. Jesus says he has already sent the disciples into the world to preach: he prays, “I have sent them into the world” (v.18), even though this did not fully happen until after the resurrection. Jesus prays for his disciples, and “for those also who[will] believed in me through their word” (v.20). That is, he prays for subsequent generations of Christians who will come to faith in Christ down the track. He prays that “the glory which You have given me I have given to them (v.22). He prays that all these believers “which you have given me” (the whole future community of faith) may behold my glory, which You have given me; for You did love [choose] me before the foundation of the world (v.24).
One day the Lord Jesus at his second coming will say to his own people, “Come, you who are blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt 25:34). In Paul’s language this hope is “laid up for you in heaven” which means it is in God’s promise and plan and is certain of fulfillment (Col. 1:5). This hope is so certain that Paul can even speak of Christians as already glorified (Romans 8:29–30, noting the past tense). Indeed, this plan hatched in God’s mind “according to His own purpose in grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” (2 Tim 1:9). Dunn, in his book, Christology in the Making p238 adds: “The gift was purposed ‘ages ago,’ unless we are to take it that the actual giving and receiving, ‘us’ and ‘Christ Jesus’ were all alike preexistent.” This hope of Christians entering into the age to come was “promised long ages ago” (Tit 1:2). Dunn continues p238.
“Here it is even clearer that what is thought of as happening “ages ago” is God’s promise; and it is that promise of eternal life which has been manifested. Indeed, the text says it is his word that he has manifested - that is, not Christ the Logos, but the word of promise, fulfilled in Christ and offered now back in the kerygma [ message]. In other words, we are back where we started – Christ as the content of the word of preaching, the embodiment of the predetermined plan of salvation, the fulfillment of the divine purpose.”
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
If I did it was a misprint, I've always believed that the Only Begotten Son of God is the Word. He was the person who was with God in the beginning and who was the beginning of the creation by God. The Only Begotten Son of God who is the Word was the person that God caused to become human and who the True God sent to mankind.
These verses do imply that Jesus existed before his appearance on earth in human form:
Colossians 1:16 (WEB):
For by him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
John 8:58 (WEB):
Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM.” (or, "I existed")
Revelation 3:14 (WEB):
“To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: “The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of God’s creation, says these things:
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
The theory would be that part of the characteristic of being a God would mean they walk the ribbon of time. I know that sounds weird. We note time as a click on a clock...only going one direction. They experience it and interact with it as part of the fabric of space. So the subway train is a reasonably good analogy. They can "walk" in one direction and walk into the future, or the other and walk in the past.
Christ when He was conceived.....found Himself in the present car....and could walk to the right and move into the past and in doing so witness all that happened....now the amount that He could interact with the physical past is a matter of debate. Of course God the Father is in all those past cars too, so they are aware of and can communicate with each other. And part of the way that this would work would be that He is still the Son of God....even in the past. Communication between Yahweh and Yeshua in this continuum would be like talking and observing, not a total data-dump, so God the Father would know things that God the Son would not.
Now moving to the left in the cars that have not arrived yet, the future.....train moving from left to right.....it gets a little complicated....what is the state of the future cars?
Is it solid and set?
Is it a little like Jell-O?
Is it like a whirlpool of possibilities?
Does it look like a kaleidoscope that when you turn it, the picture fragments move into place. Turn it meaning "walking" into the future and as you get closer things become clearer.
And the more complicated model would be like a multi-lane highway that has future possibilities arriving like an on ramp to a highway and running in parallel to other possibilities.
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
After my first post on a thread, I just respond to statements directed at me.
By golly Barney, I couldn't agree more sir! Sorry for the misunderstanding sir. I am not the brightest crayon in the box, I am thinking I am in the order of periwinkle ;)
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Pierac:
I don't agree that Revelation 13:8 means that God ordained Jesus sacrifice before he created the universe. A saviour wasn't needed until after Adam and Eve sinned. Revelation 3:14 shows us that Jesus is the beginning of creation, so when the True God began creating, the first person he created was his Only Begotten Son. Then through his Only Begotten Son, God created the angels and the physical universe including planet Earth and all life on it. So the Only Begotten Son of God already existed as a person before any of the other angels or the physical universe came into existence.
Throughout the Bible record, when it comes to things foreknown and foreordained by God, it is consistently tied in with God's own purposes and will. It wasn't God's purpose or will for Adam and Eve to be disobedient or experience death. So God didn't foreknow a saviour before he started creating, meaning when God first brought his Only Begotten Son into existence he didn't assign him as a saviour at that time, nor did God assign his Only Begotten Son as a saviour before he created the physical universe, or when he created the physical universe, it was after Adam and Eve sinned, that God foreordain his Only Begotten Son as a saviour.
At 1 Peter 1:20 although the Only Begotten Son existed as a person before the other angels existed or mankind existed this scripture doesn't mean that the Only Begotten Son of God was foreknown as a saviour before creation or before the creation of mankind. The Greek word that is translated founding in some Bibles is, katabole and it literally means, a throwing down and can refer to the conceiving of seed, as at Hebrews 11:11. The scriptures show that there was the founding of a world of mankind when God created the first human pair, as is shown in Hebrews 4:3, 4. However that pair of humans forfeited their position as children of God. Genesis 3:22-24; Romans 5:12. By God's undeserved kindness, they were allowed to conceive seed and produce offspring, one of whom is specifically shown in the Bible to have gained God's favor and placed himself in position for redemption and salvation, his name was Abel. Genesis 4:1, 2; Hebrew 11:4. It's note worthy that at Luke 11:49-51 Jesus refers to the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world and parallels this with the words, from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah. So Abel is connected by Jesus with, the founding of the world.
The Messiah was to be the promised seed through whom all righteous persons of all the families of the earth would be blessed. Galatians 3:8, 14. The first mention of such seed came after the rebellion in Eden had already been initiated, but prior to the birth of Abel. Genesis 3:15. This was some 4000 years before the revelation of the sacred secret was made by the clear identification of that Messianic seed. So it was truly kept in silence for long lasting times.
It was in God's due time that God assigned his own firstborn Son to fulfill the prophesied role of the seed and become the Messiah. There is nothing to show that the Only Begotten Son was predestined to such a role even before his creation or before rebellion broke out in Eden. Also God's eventual selection of him as the one charged with fulfilling the prophecies likewise was not made without prior basis.
The period of intimate association between God and his Son previous to the Son’s being sent to earth undoubtedly resulted in Jehovah’s ‘knowing’ his Son to an extent that He could be certain of his Son’s faithful fulfillment of the prophetic promises and pictures. Romans 15:5; Philippians 2:5-8; Matthew 11:27; John 10:14
I don't agree that Revelation 13:8 means that God ordained Jesus sacrifice before he created the universe. A saviour wasn't needed until after Adam and Eve sinned. Revelation 3:14 shows us that Jesus is the beginning of creation, so when the True God began creating, the first person he created was his Only Begotten Son. Then through his Only Begotten Son, God created the angels and the physical universe including planet Earth and all life on it. So the Only Begotten Son of God already existed as a person before any of the other angels or the physical universe came into existence.
Throughout the Bible record, when it comes to things foreknown and foreordained by God, it is consistently tied in with God's own purposes and will. It wasn't God's purpose or will for Adam and Eve to be disobedient or experience death. So God didn't foreknow a saviour before he started creating, meaning when God first brought his Only Begotten Son into existence he didn't assign him as a saviour at that time, nor did God assign his Only Begotten Son as a saviour before he created the physical universe, or when he created the physical universe, it was after Adam and Eve sinned, that God foreordain his Only Begotten Son as a saviour.
At 1 Peter 1:20 although the Only Begotten Son existed as a person before the other angels existed or mankind existed this scripture doesn't mean that the Only Begotten Son of God was foreknown as a saviour before creation or before the creation of mankind. The Greek word that is translated founding in some Bibles is, katabole and it literally means, a throwing down and can refer to the conceiving of seed, as at Hebrews 11:11. The scriptures show that there was the founding of a world of mankind when God created the first human pair, as is shown in Hebrews 4:3, 4. However that pair of humans forfeited their position as children of God. Genesis 3:22-24; Romans 5:12. By God's undeserved kindness, they were allowed to conceive seed and produce offspring, one of whom is specifically shown in the Bible to have gained God's favor and placed himself in position for redemption and salvation, his name was Abel. Genesis 4:1, 2; Hebrew 11:4. It's note worthy that at Luke 11:49-51 Jesus refers to the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world and parallels this with the words, from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah. So Abel is connected by Jesus with, the founding of the world.
The Messiah was to be the promised seed through whom all righteous persons of all the families of the earth would be blessed. Galatians 3:8, 14. The first mention of such seed came after the rebellion in Eden had already been initiated, but prior to the birth of Abel. Genesis 3:15. This was some 4000 years before the revelation of the sacred secret was made by the clear identification of that Messianic seed. So it was truly kept in silence for long lasting times.
It was in God's due time that God assigned his own firstborn Son to fulfill the prophesied role of the seed and become the Messiah. There is nothing to show that the Only Begotten Son was predestined to such a role even before his creation or before rebellion broke out in Eden. Also God's eventual selection of him as the one charged with fulfilling the prophecies likewise was not made without prior basis.
The period of intimate association between God and his Son previous to the Son’s being sent to earth undoubtedly resulted in Jehovah’s ‘knowing’ his Son to an extent that He could be certain of his Son’s faithful fulfillment of the prophetic promises and pictures. Romans 15:5; Philippians 2:5-8; Matthew 11:27; John 10:14
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I could care less about the three earth ages you talk of. I care what God inspired men to write down. What God has to say is more important than what anyone has to say about the three earth ages. So as I said there is no scripture that God inspired men to write down that says we existed as spiritual beings before God created mankind.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
You two need to take a closer look at the first chapter of the gospel off John.
the creation John’s speaking of is the creation that began in the first century.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I disagree with you, but people have the right to believe what they choose to believe, but I do disagree with what you said, "that the Apostle John at John 1:1, 2 is speaking of the creation that began in the first century."
Why do people keep getting that expression wrong?
: The expression is, "I could not care less" - the "not" is very important!The following verses imply that God had foreseen the fall of man and planned our redemption before the earth was created.
Ephesians 1:3-5 (WEB):
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ;
(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love;
(5) having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire,
We disagree sir, the beginning in the very first verse was speaking about the beginning of creation, the actual start of time sir.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I understand how you believe about the phrase, "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world," I just disagree with how you see or understand that phrase. I understand that you truly believe that the scriptures imply what you believe, it's just as I said I disagree with what you believe on these scriptures. The scriptures show that Abel is from the foundation of the world at Luke 11: 50. So before the foundation of the world would be before Abel but not before Adam. The way you choose to see or understand the scriptures at Ephesians 1:3-5 you're saying sin and death was part of God's plan and as I said it wasn't God's purpose or his will for Adam and Eve to be disobedient or experience death.
You certainly have the right to believe God's plan included sin and death but you won't convince me of that. God doesn't ask the impossible from any of us, including Adam and Eve. If As you say God foresaw that Adam and Eve would be disobedient before creating them then God asked the impossible from Adam when he commanded him to not eat from the forbidden tree. Adam was unable to choose to obey that command because if he was able to choose to obey that command then he had the ability to prove God wrong, and it's impossible for anyone to have the ability to prove God wrong. So since Adam didn't have the ability to choose before he was created, and you said God foresaw that Adam would choose to be disobedient, then God is making that choice for Adam since before creation Adam doesn't have the ability to choose anything good or bad.
The fact is God chose a deliverer for mankind after Adam and Eve sinned but before they produced offspring. This is in agreement with Luke 11:50 so at Ephesians 1:3-5 those who were chosen in him were chosen as a class of people before Able not before Adam.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
The Baptist bore witness of that light coming into the world. When the Spirit abode on Jesus, this is when Gods the Lord Jehovahs creation began. He is the breath of life. Jesus was the first of this unique creation.
Do you understand what begotten means?
Except that the verse says "before the foundation of the world".
Here is another verse in harmony with Ephesians 1:4:
2 Timothy 1:8-9 (KJV):
(8) Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
(9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
(9) Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Or a more precise translation of 2 Timothy 1:9 (ESV):
(9) who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
Luke 11:50 just says that the blood of all the prophets, that have had their blood poured out since the beginning of the world, "will be required of this generation". It doesn't conflict with God knowing before the creation of the world that mankind would fall into sin, and that God had already planned for that and chosen Jesus to be our saviour. We shouldn't doubt God's ability to foresee things before they happen. Another example is Jeremiah 1:5 (WEB), when God said to Jeremiah:
(5) “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I sanctified you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Whether God has planned ahead for thousands of years, and is controlling things so that His plan comes to pass, or whether He can see into the future and knows what will happen, either way only God can reliably tell us what will happen in the future, and He has done so throughout our history. So why shouldn't we believe that before He had even created man that he had predicted/foreseen their fall into sin?
Isaiah 44:7
(7) Who is like me? Who will call, and will declare it, and set it in order for me, since I established the ancient people? Let them declare the things that are coming, and that will happen.
Isaiah 48:3(3) I have declared the former things from of old; yes, they went out of my mouth, and I revealed them. I did them suddenly, and they happened.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
It seems to me you want to reason on the scriptures in such a way that you're saying God programmed Adam and Eve to sin and die. You are the one saying, not me, that God foresaw Adam and Eve sinning before creating them and he planned accordingly. If God foresees something, anything, before it happens, nothing can change that. So if you're saying that God foresaw, before creating Adam and Eve, that they would be disobedient to the command concerning the forbidden tree, then when God commanded them not to eat of the forbidden tree, God was telling them to do something that was impossible for them. Adam and Eve could not possibly obey the command to not eat of the forbidden tree because no one can prove God wrong, essentially it seems to me that you're saying that God programmed Adam and Eve to eat of the forbidden tree. They certainly couldn't make any other choice except the one you said he foresaw, so it was impossible for them to make any other choice. So like I said, the way you're reasoning on the scriptures it seems to me you're saying God is the source of sin and death, that he programmed them to sin and die.
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