Was Jesus/Yeshua born with a Sin Nature?

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MatthewG

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@marks do you believe Jesus could have if he wanted to do his own will at any time? Why do you think he never did his own will? Could it have been he was looking at the full scope of the picture in being able to save the entire world? Jesus was some robot child of God was he? He was just as much fleshly as Adam and Eve.


Isaiah 53 1
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.

Apparently he wasn’t very popular or beautiful a man filled with sorrows, rejected by men.

So what you say is heresy is just an honest observation of scripture but you are free to reject it, it’s alright call it heresy.
 

marks

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not if sin is never committed. Adam and Eve where fine until they made the choice to disobey, they were born under a law commanded by God do not eat.

Jesus was also born under Law of Moses and had to fulfill it…

Think about it.
Think about what exactly?

That creation was subjected to futility because of Adam's sin? You would have me think that Jesus came into this world as a part of that? No, He is the Last Adam, a new humanity.

There is a reason that Jesus said, You must be born again. You must be! Do you know why that is? Because being born from Adam is to be born spiritually dead. And therefore, you must be born again.

To claim Jesus needed to be reborn is heresy.

Much love!
 

MatthewG

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I’m not suggesting anything. Other than Jesus had a sin nature just like any other human being. Otherwise he couldn’t be tempted, and if he couldn’t be tempted that in itself is going against scriptures, @marks.

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
 

marks

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So what you say is heresy
What I'm saying is heresy is that Jesus was born in flesh corrupted by sin.

You speak of "sin nature", but that's not a Biblical concept. How do you define "sin nature" according to the Bible?

Romans 7:9-25 KJV
9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is not about Jesus. It's the rest of us, we are the ones who were born with the corruption of sin in our flesh.

When we received the commandment, we broke it. When He received it, He kept it. His is the Author of the Law, and He is not corrupted by sin.

Much love!
 

marks

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I’m not suggesting anything. Other than Jesus had a sin nature just like any other human being. Otherwise he couldn’t be tempted, and if he couldn’t be tempted that in itself is going against scriptures, @marks.

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.
Tempted in the sense of being put to the test. Jesus was put to the test. But not that He was tempted in the sense of, "I really want this evil thing but I'm not going to allow myself to have it." That's heresy. I keep using that word for a specific reason.

That which you call "sin nature" is in reality, in Biblical parlance, the corruption of sin in our flesh, which we experience every time we lust after evil things. Jesus did not do that.

Much love!
 

LearningToLetGo

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Was Jesus human, yes or no? It's that simple. If you say no, then what was he? A God/human hybrid? A human 2.0? That's really all anyone is asking in this thread.
 
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marks

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Was Jesus human, yes or no? It's that simple. If you say no, then what was he? A God/human hybrid? A human 2.0? That's really all anyone is asking in this thread.
He is most certainly human! Just the same,

1 Corinthians 15:45-49 KJV
45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 KJV
50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

From Adam we receive corruption. From Jesus we will receive incorruptibility.

Adam was earthy, Jesus is heavenly. It is because Jesus is different in this particular way that we are saved - regenerated - being baptized into Him.

Much love!
 

LearningToLetGo

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Adam was earthy, Jesus is heavenly. It is because Jesus is different in this particular way that we are saved - regenerated - being baptized into Him.

Good. We have established that Jesus was different. In what way? Did this difference make it impossible for him to sin? If we say yes then the temptations were meaningless. Did he have the potential to disobey? If we say no then he lacked true free will. But if we could be tempted yet was not, and could have disobeyed yet remained obedient, then we have something truly remarkable, a truly well beloved son.
 

marks

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Good. We have established that Jesus was different. In what way? Did this difference make it impossible for him to sin? If we say yes then the temptations were meaningless. Did he have the potential to disobey? If we say no then he lacked true free will. But if we could be tempted yet was not, and could have disobeyed yet remained obedient, then we have something truly remarkable, a truly well beloved son.

Do you think that when Jesus had fasted for 40 days, and was hungry, that He wasn't actually hungry? So very hungry that He realized He could be on death's door? And when the devil challenged Jesus to turn stones into bread, well, let's follow this through for a moment.

One of two things would have happened. Either, Jesus, while being hungry to the point to soon dying, while His flesh body appetite for food would have been greatly magnified, either He wanted inside to sin, and denied Himself, or He did not want to sin, and though tempted/tested - hungry to the point of death, and challenged to make food for Himself - nonetheless desired to serve His Father, and so didn't serve Himself.

Now, if you take the position that He actually wanted to make food for Himself contrary to His Father's will, that is itself sin. The desire for evil things. Wishing you could disobey, but choosing not. "If only I didn't have to obey God!" That is sin. All that is not of faith is sin. All.

Tempt and test are both translated from peirasmos. It's a test when we are strong against it, and Jesus was tested in all ways as are we. It's temptation when inside we want the evil thing. Concupiscence, the desire for evil things.

I do not charge Jesus with that wrong.

Much love!
 
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marks

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If we say yes then the temptations were meaningless.
Not at all. His hunger was real. The test was real. But Jesus did not lust after things that were wrong for Him. That's from the corruption of sin in our flesh, and Jesus was not corrupted by sin.

Much love!
 

dev553344

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Sin corrupts the sinner. Had Jesus committed sin, He would no longer be our sacrifice, His death would only pay for His own sin, and then He'd be dead, so it wouldn't deliver anyone.

Corruption of the flesh and sin go hand in hand. You don't have one without the other. To say that Jesus inherited the corruption of the flesh from Adam as did we is to say that He also was dead in trespasses and sin, and that He Himself needed a savior. And that is heresy.

Much love!
The body of Christ is eternal life as we learn from the sacrament of the blood and body (bread and wine). @MatthewG you say Jesus had sinful flesh. But that is contrary to the scriptures since his body is eternal life for those that partake. It is sinless and perfected.

John 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
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LearningToLetGo

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Not at all. His hunger was real. The test was real. But Jesus did not lust after things that were wrong for Him. That's from the corruption of sin in our flesh, and Jesus was not corrupted by sin.

Much love!

We're almost seeing eye to eye. I think the confusion is simply our misreading words.

We both agree that Jesus hungered, felt pain, felt tired, etc. He was human.

We also agree that he desired above all to obey God. Thus when tempted after fasting 40 days, as hungry and weak as he was he refused to disobey God. We can infer that God wanted Jesus to experience temptation.

Likewise we can infer that Jesus desired to not be tortured to death. After all he asked God to spare him. Nonetheless he remained obedient to the Father.

But here is where I think we differ in outlook. Being human, Jesus had potential to fail. Likewise, every human alive has potential to be obedient to God in all ways. Jesus passed the test where we fail.
 
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MatthewG

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Please read this out loud to yourself.

The point here that people get hung up on is the word Sin.

Sinful Flesh, Jesus was made in likeness to sinful flesh. However Yeshua was not sinful.

He never committed sin.

In Fact Yeshua was the full expression of Gods mind, will, and emotion. As the Word of God was in Yeshua.

Please consider the things I’m saying…

If you believe in the trinity doctrine all of things I’m saying will throw you for a loop and suggest that I am saying Jesus was a sinner…

Im not.

The very word of God that created all things, was born into a FleshLy Body, like you were born into a fleshly body. The thing is, you were born by a man into a woman. Where Jesus was not, He was still born in flesh, and that Flesh was tempted… so would Jesus be able to commit sin? He could have.

But did Jesus commit sin?

No, why? Because he was the word of God, made flesh, he had the Holy Spirit of God with Him, to help him.

So what can a person gain from knowing this information, is that when a person is born again, they have God with them by his Holy Spirit, they are also given the spirit of Christ which the life giving spirit that brings forth new birth to the believer… in where

Our own flesh that is corrupted in every way, now has something else to live off of, that is the spirit, which helps us mortify the deeds of the body.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
 
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Webers_Home

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FAQ: If Jesus was David's biological posterity, and David was Adam's
biological posterity, then by extension, didn't the two passages below apply
to Jesus the same as it applies to all the rest of Adam's posterity?

"Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this
way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Rom 5:12)

"Through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners."
(Rom 5:19)


REPLY: Yes; there are no exceptions.

FAQ: If Jesus was made a joint principal in Adam's transgression, then how
can it be honestly said that Christ was a lamb without blemish or spot?


REPLY: Although Adam's disobedience made Jesus culpable along with
himself; it didn't make Jesus sinful: that's something else altogether. We're
not talking about the so-called fallen nature here.

The forbidden fruit wasn't Jesus' sin; it was Adam's sin. In point of fact;
Christ committed no personal sins of his own to account for. (John 8:29,
2Cor 5:21, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22)

The good news is: Adam's sin put no one in danger of hell. No; it's very
simple to clear off the books seeing as how mortality is the proper penalty
for what he did (Gen 2:16-17). Consequences for the sins that his posterity
commits on their own is another matter.


FYI: Seeing as how Jesus was condemned to die on account of Adam's
transgression just like everybody else, then he would've eventually passed
away of natural causes had he not been crucified.
_
 

marks

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Likewise, every human alive has potential to be obedient to God in all ways. Jesus passed the test where we fail.

All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, and that will be true of all Adam's humanity, so, no, humans do not have the potential to be completely and fully obedient to God.

Much love!
 

Webers_Home

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FAQ: Was Jesus virgin-conceived so he wouldn't inherit Adam's fallen
nature?


REPLY: The so-called fallen nature is believed to be propagated by men.
Along with that is the belief that baby Jesus eluded the fallen nature by his
virgin conception.

Oh? Then whence did Eve obtain the fallen nature?

She was already alive and fully constructed with material taken from Adam's
body prior to the forbidden fruit incident. Since himself tasted the fruit after
his wife was already in existence; then it was impossible for Adam to pass
the fallen nature to her by means of his body.

In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had
something to do with the first couple's altered moral perception; but now I
seriously doubt it because Eve was the first to eat the fruit, and when she
did, nothing happened. She remained just as shameless in the buff as
before. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that she began to feel exposed; so
I'm pretty sure that the underlying cause is far more serious than the
chemistry of that fruit.

If Eve's fallen condition wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to Adam's body,
then what? Well; obviously the Serpent did it to them, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev
20:2)

He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the
human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke
13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.


FAQ: Why wasn't the woman effected by the Serpent's power when she
tasted the forbidden fruit?


REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if death was to come into the
world, it would come via a lone male's actions just as life would come into
the world via a lone male's actions. (Rom 5:12-21)


FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?


REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but
I'm guessing that for most of us it's in the womb; and if not in the womb,
then certainly no later than when we're born. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)

So then: even if Joseph had fathered baby Jesus, the child wouldn't have
necessarily been born with the so-called fallen nature because it's not
passed on by one's father nor one's mother. It's obtained from humanity's
covert parent: the Devil-- ergo: protecting baby Jesus from the so-called
fallen nature was just a simple matter of keeping the Devil's paws off him.
_
 

MatthewG

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Matt,

Thank you for creating this topic. I don't think any minds were changed but at least we solidified our apologetics. Keep up the insights. They are much enjoyed.

Jason

(If anyone reads this read everything thank you.)

Thank you for the comment Jason.


If something profound comes along I’ll pass it along that is the benefit for this subject here as it was something made apparent to me just recently that was never considered.

Because God created the inherit nature of choosing in Adam and Eve, which is namely the flesh, when an idea is conceived in our soul (heart/mind/will/emotions) those thoughts and actions come into play either remaining in the (heart/mind) or they come out by the Will to use our flesh to do something or our emotions even can exaggerate the flesh per say.

Considering Adam and Eve had this nature, May people put the blame on the devil for deceiving Eve. It is true he did deceive Eve. However when she saw the fruit and how it would make one wise she herself made the full choice and decision to eat by her own merit.

After this, Adam came along like dang baby you look good (this will get me in trouble), sure I’ll eat some of that fruit too, to hell with God had said, because he totally had the ability to say no. And Eve also totally had the choice to talk to God about the “Serpent / Observer” in the Garden.

Because of these factors if Adam and Eve did not have the flesh to make the choice, or where given the ability to choose.

God made Adam and Eve Fall, and the Angel God had created that Had fallen was sent directly to deceive them… this would make God a very manipulative and not a loving God at all.

The Word of God which was sent, though it was born of the Virgin Mary, by the Holy Spirit, had to take on the form of flesh, named Jesus who was of Nazareth… interestingly enough Jesus wasn’t treated in any special way after his birth he was treated as every other child, cleaned and put in swaddling clothes and most of all put in an Manger which was set up in a barn by someone who allowed Mary and Joseph to stay and lodge for that night… thinking about a barn it kind of shows us our own human nature which is similar (not the same) to the animals and can be crazy, at times… (The Prodigal Son).

Jesus was born with a human nature, it was flesh it bleed, and it also could suffer temptations, like most people cannot sustain from food for 40 days our body is tempted to eat. These temptations were real, seeing all the kingdoms the devil offered him, the stones to bread to (eat), and even the suggestion of throwing himself off the pinnacle of the tower that God would send his angels to lift Him up.

Inside of Jesus though was the very Word of God, the very Word that in beginning that created the light when God said “let there be light”, to hold that flesh back, and Jesus was well trained in the Old Testament having been a Jewish boy.


.
FAQ: Was Jesus virgin-conceived so he wouldn't inherit Adam's fallen
nature?


REPLY: The so-called fallen nature is believed to be propagated by men.
Along with that is the belief that baby Jesus eluded the fallen nature by his
virgin conception.

Oh? Then whence did Eve obtain the fallen nature?

She was already alive and fully constructed with material taken from Adam's
body prior to the forbidden fruit incident. Since himself tasted the fruit after
his wife was already in existence; then it was impossible for Adam to pass
the fallen nature to her by means of his body.

In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had
something to do with the first couple's altered moral perception; but now I
seriously doubt it because Eve was the first to eat the fruit, and when she
did, nothing happened. She remained just as shameless in the buff as
before. It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that she began to feel exposed; so
I'm pretty sure that the underlying cause is far more serious than the
chemistry of that fruit.

If Eve's fallen condition wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to Adam's body,
then what? Well; obviously the Serpent did it to them, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev
20:2)

He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the
human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke
13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.


FAQ: Why wasn't the woman effected by the Serpent's power when she
tasted the forbidden fruit?


REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if death was to come into the
world, it would come via a lone male's actions just as life would come into
the world via a lone male's actions. (Rom 5:12-21)


FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of
the womb?


REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but
I'm guessing that for most of us it's in the womb; and if not in the womb,
then certainly no later than when we're born. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)

So then: even if Joseph had fathered baby Jesus, the child wouldn't have
necessarily been born with the so-called fallen nature because it's not
passed on by one's father nor one's mother. It's obtained from humanity's
covert parent: the Devil-- ergo: protecting baby Jesus from the so-called
fallen nature was just a simple matter of keeping the Devil's paws off him.
_
 

LearningToLetGo

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Because of these factors if Adam and Eve did not have the flesh to make the choice, or where given the ability to choose.

God made Adam and Eve Fall, and the Angel God had created that Had fallen was sent directly to deceive them… this would make God a very manipulative and not a loving God at all.

I think I understand what you are saying. You are saying that either Adam & Eve had legitimate free will and chose to disobey God or that God, knowing they would disobey him, crafted them in such a way as to ensure their fall, thus obviating any notion of free will on their behalf. If this is not what you meant then please correct me.

The problem with this kind of logic is it assumes we have the perception and intellect to understand what we are seeing. It's akin to a primitive cave man seeing a helicopter flying overhead and trying to figure out what kind of bird it is. That's a nonsensical question since helicopters are not birds. In the same way we ask whether Adam & Eve had free will OR whether they were designed to fail, which I suspect is an equally nonsensical question. Perhaps when we leave our flesh and move on to the spirit realm we will see this more clearly. For now it's probably best to just accept that we can't really know the mechanics of how anything works and just take God's prophets at their word.

By the way, I take the same approach to all the apparent contradictions in scripture. Logic is not sufficient in matters of spirit. We can't think our way to God. We need to take a lesson from Moses and simply focus our attention on the Bronze Snake, so to speak, and trust that is sufficient for our daily needs.
 
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