Some think that John the Baptist was an Essene. Some say the Essenes were Gnostic or some of them were Gnostic. Maybe they became Gnostic at some point.
Was John the Baptist an Essene
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I haven't heard that they were gnostic; just another sect within Judaism.
The Essenes used a different calendar to the Temple, the former a solar calendar and the Temple a lunar calendar. One source I read suggests that this would solve one of the puzzles about the timing of the Last Supper.
JohnPaul
Soldier of Jehovah and Christ
Wasn't John The Baptist Jesus' cousin? Therefore he would be related to him through Mary and her cousin, John the Baptist's Mother.
I've heard the same sort of answer concerning Galilee and Jerusalem, that Galilee was on Roman time, and the rulers allowed it for the feast due to the crowds. Just as well to spread the feast across two days. But I don't know this, just something I've heard.
Much love!
I may be mistaken about fragments becoming Gnostic. I do know that some branched out with beliefs that the larger sect rejected. I think 3 groups formed that the larger sect rejected. The dead sea scrolls have provided evidence that the Essenes held the same beliefs as 1st century Christians.
I'm not sure it makes a difference in doctrine but there is lots of evidence that John the Baptist was an Essene. We know that Jesus held John the Baptist in high regard. This would point to Jesus being aligned to the Essenes (probable but not provable). The Essenes calendar has been proved to be very accurate. They prophesied that Jesus would die on the cross in 32 AD. They also prophecied that a Benjamite would come preaching grace. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin. The Essenes were "too Christian like" for the Jews involved in the evaluation of the dead sea scrolls but enjoyed the proof they provided in the Jews early settlement in the region combating oposing views from the Muslim community.
I agree. I suspect these smaller fragments who branched out were a very minority group. One of the groups would not enter any place that had a statue nor would they handle coins that had an emperor or government figure raised surface on the coin. I guess you call the fanatics. We fanatics today.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
This is proposed by some interpreters of the book of Colossians, who assert the heresy the Colossians were being lured into was an "amalgamation" of Gnostic with Essene beliefs.
This is a virtual impossibility, however, if you look closely at both of these religions. They were two diametrically opposed systems of thought. Essenism was a strict, and I mean STRICT, adherence to Jewish law, albeit one that turned Jewish religion more into a type of Jewish philosophical system instead. Gnosticism on the other hand was a religion that exhibited an abject HATRED of Jewish law, and the Old Testament God of the Jews Himself. This was the heart of both systems, which means they were 100% opposed to one another theologically.
The idea of an amalgamation of the two becomes only remotely possible if you take into account later Gnostic systems like those of the 2nd and 3rd centuries, and only as regards things like the Gnostic cosmology and interpreting certain verses in Colossians to be referring to the same thing.
On closer examination of the letter, however, this is not what the verses are referring to.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Now this is a good discussion....not really biblical so we are talking outside that boundary. So what we discuss here in not against the bible....it is extrabiblical.
My first question would be to @TEXBOW...where did you get this information that... "They prophesied that Jesus would die on the cross in 32 AD. They also prophesied that a Benjamite would come preaching grace." That would be interesting.
The Essenes and the Gnostics. The only connection to the Gnostics that the Essenes had was categorically. The Gnostics and the Essenes both dealt with forms of mysticism. The Essenes had no warm fussy for the Christians.
Gnostics; They did not call themselves Gnostics, that was a term that was given them categorically. The word Gnostic can be defined as knowledge speaking of secret spiritual knowledge...There beliefs varied and had both Jewish and Christian groups and elements. But the term Gnostic in effect means we do not like their religion or texts. But you would need a shotgun to hit all the variances.
It would be nearly impossible for John the Baptist and Christ not to know about the Essenes and their beliefs. Now one of the primary beliefs of the Essenes was a prophecy about a war between the sons of light and the sons of darkness....the sons of darkness would have been everyone else but them. But they pointedly were against the Jewish priesthood and the temple they presided over.
Now then it is fair to say that John the Baptist and Christ were not that cozy with the Jewish Priesthood either? And did Christ's reference to Himself being the light and His followers children of the light come from that Essene belief? Concepts of light permeate Christ's teachings.
So we only have biblical suggestions that they at least knew or agreed with some of the Essene beliefs.
My first question would be to @TEXBOW...where did you get this information that... "They prophesied that Jesus would die on the cross in 32 AD. They also prophesied that a Benjamite would come preaching grace." That would be interesting.
The Essenes and the Gnostics. The only connection to the Gnostics that the Essenes had was categorically. The Gnostics and the Essenes both dealt with forms of mysticism. The Essenes had no warm fussy for the Christians.
Gnostics; They did not call themselves Gnostics, that was a term that was given them categorically. The word Gnostic can be defined as knowledge speaking of secret spiritual knowledge...There beliefs varied and had both Jewish and Christian groups and elements. But the term Gnostic in effect means we do not like their religion or texts. But you would need a shotgun to hit all the variances.
It would be nearly impossible for John the Baptist and Christ not to know about the Essenes and their beliefs. Now one of the primary beliefs of the Essenes was a prophecy about a war between the sons of light and the sons of darkness....the sons of darkness would have been everyone else but them. But they pointedly were against the Jewish priesthood and the temple they presided over.
Now then it is fair to say that John the Baptist and Christ were not that cozy with the Jewish Priesthood either? And did Christ's reference to Himself being the light and His followers children of the light come from that Essene belief? Concepts of light permeate Christ's teachings.
So we only have biblical suggestions that they at least knew or agreed with some of the Essene beliefs.
I myself have just recently started studying the Dead Sea Scroll / Essence connection. Dr Ken Johnson who is considered by many an expert on the DSS has published the Testaments of the Patriarchs found in the DSS. First of all, I agree this is not Canon nor am I suggesting that it should be. The testaments could be early fiction but I don't think so. They have an overwhelming message consistent with the scriptures. The testament from Arron for example has Arron warning the future generations not to have anything to do with the crucifixion of the Messiah.
What is not in doubt is the age of these testaments. When backdated using the Essene calendar they are very accurate. (I'm still learning though). These testaments have numerous prophecies. I understand them to be like letters written for future generations of their own families. So far I have not seen anything inconsistent with the scriptures. Some researchers make claims that these Patriarchs testaments are a source for the authors of the New Testament. It seems to prove that Paul for example was a convert to the Essene teachings in his reference to following "The Way". I do not think the New Testament authors lifted doctrine from these testaments but they must have known about them. As mentioned this is new to me and I'm still digging but I find it fascinating. I feel that we will gain knowledge in the last days.
I think it's worthy to understand the credibility the Dead Sea Scrolls gave to the scriptures. Putting aside the discussion on what is believed or not believed that is written in the scrolls but the dispelling of forgery claims to many manuscripts. In other words, if the more recent (2nd thru 13 century) questioned manuscripts now match with most of the DSS that are indisputably 1st century and older it eliminates the forgery claim. We must also realize that some Jews were not happy with the content of the DSS in regard to them being "too Christian". Not in their interest to highlight or bring attention to these scrolls that support Christianity. I'm sure many Jews wish the scrolls had never been discovered. What they do like is the proof of Jews occupying the land at a very early date.
I think we look at the Patriarches Testaments much like we do early Church fathers' writings. Not as inspired scripture but information passed down to other generations. Does it make them false, I don't why that would be assumed. If they were counter to the scriptures one might wonder but I think they are aligned.
I heard in church that John the Baptist was the son of a priest. And that he gave that up to baptize people according to the Lord. But he was entitled to become a priest.
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