1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Was Noah “saved by grace through faith”?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by CNKW3, Oct 26, 2019.

  1. CNKW3

    CNKW3 Active Member

    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    147
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I only know what you’ve told me, and what I’ve read from you.
    The heart is important but if it’s not guided by truth it’s worthless.....
    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
     
  2. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,021
    Likes Received:
    1,830
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes, absolutely! This is what I was saying all along. I suppose the difference in what I am saying (as oppose to what others may may be saying) is that he found Grace and had faith BEFORE he built the ark. He didn't receive such because he built the ark.
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  3. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    3,131
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Go back and read again. I said Christ is not telling the world to go and preach the Gospel. It is to the disciples, the believers.

    (Mark 16:16) "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Note it did not say he that is not water baptized shall be damned. Water baptism is important, but not necessary to be born-again.

    Stranger
     
  4. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    3,131
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Righteousness was not imputed to Abraham until (Gen. 3:15). Abraham believed and was obedient to God prior to and after that. But God chose that time to impute righteousness to Abraham. Why? As I said, because there was nothing Abraham could do but believe.

    In (Gen.12) Abraham could do something. He got up and left. In (Gen. 22) Abraham could do something. He offered up Isaac. In (Gen. 15) Abraham could do nothing but believe. See (Rom. 4:1-3). Plus, I believe what Abraham believed was important. It was directed toward the coming Saviour. (15:6)

    God knows the stiffness of human nature to always wanting to do it themselves. As Donald Grey Barnhouse said, "Man is addicted to self-effort, and wants desperately to take care of himself and to do everything on his own." (Romans, Vol. III, Erdmans, 1982, p. 109)

    Stranger
     
  5. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    399
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Giuliano said:
    Adam would have been disobedient either way he went. Can Adam say he loved God if he don't love Eve?[/QUOTE\]

    I Also ask if Adam could obeyed the commandment to be fruitful and multiply?

    Considering the fact that the entire human race was at stake, wouldn't it have been selfish for Adam to try to save his own life? [/QUOTE\]

    1. You're stating that it's selfish to put love of God first in your life, that's not true.
    2. You're also stating that if Adam had remained faithful that God couldn't find a way to cause mankind to be fruitful and multiply and nothing is impossible with God.

    Eve was the first human sinner. Her temptation by God’s Adversary, who employed a serpent as a medium of communication was not through an open appeal to immorality of a sensual nature. Rather, it paraded as an appeal to the desire for supposed intellectual elevation and freedom. After first getting Eve to restate God’s law, which she evidently had received through her husband, the Tempter then made an assault on God’s truthfulness and goodness. He asserted that eating fruit from the prescribed tree would result, not in death, but in enlightenment and godlike ability to determine for oneself whether a thing was good or bad. This statement reveals that the Tempter was by now thoroughly alienated in heart from his Creator, his words constituting open contradiction plus veiled slander of God. He did not accuse God of unknowing error but of deliberate misrepresentation of matters, saying, “For God knows . . .” The gravity of sin, the detestable nature of such disaffection, is seen in the means to which this spirit son stooped to achieve his ends, becoming a deceitful liar and an ambition-driven murderer, since he obviously knew the fatal consequences of what he now suggested to his human listener.—Ge 3:1-5; Joh 8:44.

    As the account reveals, improper desire began to work in Eve. Instead of reacting in utter disgust and righteous indignation on hearing the righteousness of God’s law thus called into question, she now came to look upon the tree as desirable. She coveted what rightly belonged to Jehovah God as her Sovereign—his ability and prerogative to determine what is good and what is bad for his creatures. Hence, she was now starting to conform herself to the ways, standards, and will of the opposer, who contradicted her Creator as well as her God-appointed head, her husband. (1Co 11:3) Putting trust in the Tempter’s words, she let herself be seduced, ate of the fruit, and thus revealed the sin that had been born in her heart and mind.—Ge 3:6; 2Co 11:3; compare Jas 1:14, 15;Mt 5:27, 28.

    Adam later partook of the fruit when it was offered to him by his wife. The apostle shows that the man’s sinning differed from that of his wife in that Adam was not deceived by the Tempter’s propaganda, hence he put no stock in the claim that eating the fruit from the tree could be done with impunity. (1Ti 2:14) Adam’s eating, therefore, must have been due to desire for his wife, and he ‘listened to her voice’ rather than to that of his God. (Ge 3:6, 17) He thus conformed to her ways and will, and through her, to those of God’s Adversary. He therefore ‘missed the mark,’ failed to act in God’s image and likeness, did not reflect God’s glory, and, in fact, insulted his heavenly Father.
     
  6. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,825
    Likes Received:
    2,270
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Did I use the word sin? Does Genesis use it?

    If we say we love God, we must keep His commandments, no?
     
  7. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    399
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    If you truly believe that disobedience to God isn't a sin then it's obvious you know nothing about the scriptures. Romans 5:12
     
  8. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,825
    Likes Received:
    2,270
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You don't seem willing to grapple with the fact that if Adam had not eaten the fruit, he would also have been disobeying God. If the human race didn't exist, then what would have happened? What about what Jesus said, that what God has joined, let no man put asunder?

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Was that Adam? Not Eve? Paul doesn't always write too carefully, does he? In Genesis, sin is first mentioned about Cain.

    Perhaps Adam chose to be "accursed" for the sake of the human race and the plan God had for it.

    Romans 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

    It may seem odd, but "husband" and "wife" are not mentioned here:

    Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  9. CNKW3

    CNKW3 Active Member

    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    147
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I read it. You didn’t say believers. You said disciples which in the context means apostles. So, i would agree that believers are to preach the gospel and those hearing it are to believe and be baptized.

    the lord tells us in that passage how to be saved and how to be damned. If you want to be saved then you MUST believe the gospel and be baptized.
    If you want to be damned then just don’t believe the gospel.
    There is no difference between you rejecting baptism as a part of salvation and people rejecting Noah telling them they need to build a boat.
     
  10. CNKW3

    CNKW3 Active Member

    Messages:
    997
    Likes Received:
    147
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Hebrews 11:8 said he left his home “by faith”. This means he was a “believer” right from the beginning. This idea that one just obeys without belief is crazy. You are really reaching now.
    We know God does not “impute righteousness” at the point of belief today because at that point the believer is still in their sins. The believer is not accounted as righteous until his sins have been removed. Rom 4: 6-8
     
  11. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,366
    Likes Received:
    1,951
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Giuliano, are you saying that Adam would have disobeyed God if he had NOT eaten from the forbidden tree? You're saying that eating from that tree AND NOT eating from that tree were both disobeying God. How can this be???

    Are you basing this wrong idea on the lie that the devil told Eve? God commanded Adam NOT to eat of that one tree. The devil lied to Eve about what God had said and then went on to lie to her about the consequences of eating from the tree.

    Genesis 2:16-17-- And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.”

    Genesis 3:1-5-- Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You can’t eat from any tree in the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, ‘You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.’” “No! You will not die,” the serpent said to the woman. “In fact, God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    Paul wrote Romans 5:12 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and he got it right! Sin entered the world by Adam because God had told ADAM not to eat from that one tree, and Adam ate from that tree. Adam disobeyed God by eating from the tree, so he sinned because sin is disobedience to God. I think it's safe to conclude that if he had not disobeyed God, sin would not have entered the world.

    Of course, God knew that Adam would disobey Him, and God had a plan to save mankind through Jesus Christ from the beginning, but this doesn't mean that God WANTED Adam to sin! Why would God command Adam not to eat from the tree if He really wanted Adam to eat from it? This is nonsensical. As a parent, I would NEVER command my children NOT to do what I want them to do.

    You have some very strange, unbiblical ideas about the serpent in the Garden. Based on previous discussions you and I have had about this, you seem to think that the serpent in the Garden was good even though he LIED to Eve and influenced her to disobey God's command. I think that you are under the influence of the "serpent power" through the Kundalini yoga you've participated in. Seriously, I think that you need deliverance! Jesus came to set the captives free! He CAN set you free!
    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    29,272
    Likes Received:
    9,903
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    a commentary on your two sides, imo, fwiw
    ^
    or not odd at all, maybe
    ya, that one lost me too
     
  13. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    3,131
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I have already told you. I don't reject baptism as part of salvation.

    Stranger
     
  14. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    399
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Giuliano said:
    You don't seem willing to grapple with the fact that if Adam had not eaten the fruit, he would also have been disobeying God. If the human race didn't exist, then what would have happened? What about what Jesus said, that what God has joined, let no man put asunder?[/QUOTE\]

    I certainly don't grapple with the fact that if Adam hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit he would be disobeying God. Because if he had been obedient or faithful to God he would be in no way or in any sense be disobeying God. God didn't say don't eat the forbidden fruit unless your wife does. That command applied to both Adam and Eve, and disobedience is not something that God requires or needs in order to fulfill his purposes or plan.[/QUOTE\]

    Giuliano said:
    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Was that Adam? Not Eve? Paul doesn't always write too carefully, does he? In Genesis, sin is first mentioned about Cain.[/QUOTE\]


    Romans 5:13,14
    For sin was in the world before the Law, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law.+ 14 Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed, who bears a resemblance to the one who was to come. Read Romans 5:12-14 and it seems to me these scriptures are very clear.[/QUOTE\]


    Giuliano said:
    It may seem odd, but "husband" and "wife" are not mentioned here:

    Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.[/QUOTE\]

    Odd to you obviously but Jesus was speaking about family members including in-laws but you think that simply because the words husband or wife are excluded from these scriptures it doesn't apply to them, that the husband can love his wife more than God or the wife can love her husband more than God even though these scriptures apply to every other member of the family, or maybe you think because they are husband and wife they are not members of the family. Show me scripturally how the scriptures don't apply to husband's or wives.[/QUOTE\]




     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  15. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    3,131
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Again, I didn't say Abraham was not a believer when he left for Ur. I said God did not impute righteousness to him until his faith was all there was. And his faith was directed toward the Seed to come. And to this Paul agrees. (Rom. 4:3).

    Today when one places faith in Christ, they are exercising the faith that results in the imputed righteousness of Christ.

    (Rom. 4:6-8) does not prove that God does not impute righteousness at the point of belief today. Where did you get that idea?

    Stranger
     
  16. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,825
    Likes Received:
    2,270
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    So Eve's eating was not a "sin" in your book?

    If God knew Adam would eat, why bother telling him not to? Try making some sense, please.

    Enough of your accusations. Spare me your self-righteous act. I doubt you even understood what I wrote. If you wish to communicate with me, I expect you to have a more charitable attitude.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
  17. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,825
    Likes Received:
    2,270
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I don't find it odd myself -- but I realized others might so I used the word "seem."
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  18. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,366
    Likes Received:
    1,951
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    This was not an accusation, but an observation. And you're saying that my observation was "leaning to the satanic." :rolleyes:

    My comment was not uncharitable in the least! What more loving thing could a person say to someone who is under demonic influence than to tell them they can be delivered/set free? I believe that you have placed yourself into bondage through an occult practice, and I love you enough to tell you this and to tell you that JESUS CAME TO SET YOU FREE!
     
  19. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,366
    Likes Received:
    1,951
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I don't have to make sense of any of this, not according to human wisdom, which is faulty. God made all of this very clear in the Bible. All I have to do is believe what He has said.
     
  20. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,825
    Likes Received:
    2,270
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You can keep imagining how much holier you are than other people -- and that too should alert you to your own state of mind. People who make accusations like that do incline to the satanic. Satan is the great accuser.

    You also said God knew Adam would eat of the fruit. The Bible does not say that.

    In other words, you think God allowed Adam to be tempted beyond what he could bear?

    1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
     
Loading...