Was Paul Right About Women In Church?

[Sabertooth]

I still have agency but I am expected to submit to his authority.

If you are doing it right, you are doing so out of love & trust for Him (that you have grown into).
Even without the threat of Hell, I know that God's ways are superior to mine.
My only fear, right now, is if I choose my wisdom over His, it will likely cost me money or, at least, peace & comfort. And it isn't because God is just waiting to back-hand me.* That is the consequence of dumb choices.
God is ready to help me get back on track as soon as I realize the need to do so. It is that trial-and-error history that has brought me to my current level of trust for Him.

And we must extend that same grace (to fail) to other believers, as well; not the least of which, our wives.

*He might give me a "told ya so," though...

 

[DNB]

I am not hard headed...understood you the first time.
But there is an undertow to this current of reasoning.
It does not matter if you are kind to the subjugated. In like context, kind to the slaves.
Social and religious status of women should have been the same early on.
In marriage...two horses tied to a team, pulling together. No master. Each a leader in their own rite.
The voice of Christian women should be heard with the same authority. Church administration should be made up of both and Christianity would have been better served if it were that way from the beginning.

Christian societies that were male dominated hurt the lives of billions of women for centuries. Not only in religion. Social status of women in society or work place. Female medical arts are still feeling the affects of being neglected for centuries. The woman suffrage movement and ERA was not about hating men, it was about equal status in society. Women are human too. We all have mothers. Equal status in marriage, equal status in the church, equal status and pay in the work place, equal status in politics.

For that which is equitable, seems to be justice, and equity, goes beyond the written law.

Stop making your appeal from what you've learnt from anthropological history. Everyone knows the injustices and atrocities committed by all genders, predominantly man, for several millennia.
The Jews, many wise and productive ones, were persecuted by Christians, does this mean that we should just let them into the Kingdom when God says no?
Blacks were enslaved for centuries, should we now just embrace the Black Messiah, or Ras Tafari movement?
There are countless humble, loving and altruistic people, from countless religions around the world, therefore should we just disregard God's requisition to become Christian in order to be saved? For after all, there such nice and capable people?

The Bible was entirely Patriarchal, from the Garden of Eden, to Timothy establishing the Churches in Ephesus. All the Israelite Priests, Monarchs, Judges and notable Prophets, were all men (except two minor exceptions that ended in infamy).
The head of Christ = God, head of man = Christ, head of woman = man.

Quit appealing to your emotions, and start appreciating the glory of God's design for creation.

 

[DNB]

Are you making my point for me, that the speaker being a woman does not disqualify her from speaking...?

No, we are talking about ruling over others. I said that Prophets are not necessarily authoritative figures.

 

[Wrangler]

If you are doing it right, you are doing so out of love & trust for Him (that you have grown into).

You are ignoring the basic question; does the Bible indicate a husband has authority over his wife? Yes or No.

Was Paul Right About Women In Church? Yes or No.

 

[Grailhunter]

Stop making your appeal from what you've learnt from anthropological history. Everyone knows the injustices and atrocities committed by all genders, predominantly man, for several millennia.
The Jews, many wise and productive ones, were persecuted by Christians, does this mean that we should just let them into the Kingdom when God says no?
Blacks were enslaved for centuries, should we now just embrace the Black Messiah, or Ras Tafari movement?
There are countless humble, loving and altruistic people, from countless religions around the world, should we just disregard God's requisition to become Christian in order to be saved? For after all, there such nice and capable people?

The Bible was entirely Patriarchal, from the Garden of Eden, to Timothy establishing the Churches in Ephesus. All the Israelite Priests, Monarchs, Judges and notable Prophets, were all men (except two minor exceptions that ended in infamy).
The head of Christ = God, head of man = Christ, head of woman = man.

Quit appealing to your emotions, and start appreciating the glory of God's design for creation.

Not really interested in Old Testament concepts of women....they are not property anymore
And what Yahweh said to Eve was a curse.
I am going on what is right and what wrong using the character of Christ as the rule.
If you have a hard heart your interpretation and understanding will seek out those scriptures to feed your hard heart.
The desire to be the "elect" or the desire to be the master of someone corrupt the heart and the mind. From that perspective the meaning of the Gospels will always escape you.

Let me help you with your hard heart...
Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."

Mark 10:21 Looking at him, Jesus showed love to him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Well their ya go, scriptures to live by....
So now you can be a bohemian and just about hate everybody and it is scriptural, but can you be as perfect as God the Father?

Seek out the heart of Christ and the scriptures will make sense. Without that their meaning will always escape you. What is Christianity without understanding the heart of Christ?

 

[Sabertooth]

You are ignoring the basic question; does the Bible indicate a husband has authority over his wife? Yes or No.

That is only half of the basic question.
The other half is "How does He intend for us to get there...?"

Paul wrote,
"Wives, do this..." and
"Husbands, do this..."

Not being a wife, I hear,

1. "Husbands, do this..."

You seem to be hearing,

1. "Husbands, do [this] and
2. make sure your wife does [that]..."

#2 is an error.

Still others,

1. "Get your wife to do [that] and, upon succeeding,
2. husbands, do [this]..."

#1, here, is even a worse error.
"I will start obeying you, Lord, after I get my wife to do so."
(It sure is hard...

)

 

[DNB]

Not really interested in Old Testament concepts of women....they are not property anymore
And what Yahweh said to Eve was a curse.
I am going on what is right and what wrong using the character of Christ as the rule.
If you have a hard heart your interpretation and understanding will seek out those scriptures to feed your hard heart.
The desire to be the "elect" or the desire to be the master of someone corrupt the heart and the mind. From that perspective the meaning of the Gospels will always escape you.

Let me help you with your hard heart...
Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."

Mark 10:21 Looking at him, Jesus showed love to him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Well their ya go, scriptures to live by....
So now you can be a bohemian and just about hate everybody and it is scriptural, but can you be as perfect as God the Father?

Seek out the heart of Christ and the scriptures will make sense. Without that their meaning will always escape you. What is Christianity without understanding the heart of Christ?

That's fine, seek out the heart of Christ, ...but just make sure that women neither have authority nor teach in Church, and then you'll win God's approbation.

 

[TLHKAJ]

If she will joyfully and willingly submit to your headship, I’ll love her as God intended.

How does that shoe fit?

You can't have it both ways. Either you're the head or you are not.
Why did you not reply to my question to you about respect?

 

[Grailhunter]

That's fine, seek out the heart of Christ, ...but just make sure that women neither have authority nor teach in Church, and then you'll win God's approbation.

The hard heart...you want to ignore some scriptures...but latch on to those scriptures that have caused so much harm and misery.
So what are you going to do with the hate everyone scripture and the bohemian scripture...and are you as perfect as God the Father?

 

[DNB]

The hard heart...you want to ignore some scriptures...but latch on to those scriptures that have caused so much harm and misery.
So what are you going to do with the hate everyone scripture and the bohemian scripture...and are you as perfect as God the Father?

...just curious, how in the world are you defining bohemian?

 

[soul man]

Has anyone else read where it says "gifts are for the kids," they are for growth and maturing saints do not need gifts for operating in life. They belong to the children.

 

[dev553344]

Has anyone else read where it says "gifts are for the kids," they are for growth and maturing saints do not need gifts for operating in life. They belong to the children.

That sounds like incorrect doctrine as we are told in the bible to seek the gifts of the holy spirit. I would just ignore the attempt to proclaim that idea. Cheers!

 

[soul man]

That sounds like incorrect doctrine as we are told in the bible to seek the gifts of the holy spirit. I would just ignore the attempt to proclaim that idea. Cheers!

I perceive many things sound wrong

 

[Sabertooth]

Has anyone else read where it says "gifts are for the kids," they are for growth and maturing saints do not need gifts for operating in life. They belong to the children.

You can Google it, but I don't recall any such verse. I would say no, that no one has read such a verse.

I can think of two verses that sound similar but are unrelated to the spiritual gifts.

(BTW, why are you asking this in a Patriarchy thread...?

)

 

[teamventure]

The hard heart...you want to ignore some scriptures...but latch on to those scriptures that have caused so much harm and misery.
So what are you going to do with the hate everyone scripture and the bohemian scripture...and are you as perfect as God the Father?

Wait, did you just imply that some scriptures caused harm?

 

[teamventure]

You can Google it, but I don't recall any such verse. I would say no, that no one has read such a verse.

I can think of two verses that sound similar but are unrelated to the spiritual gifts.

(BTW, why are you asking this in a Patriarchy thread...?

)

Sabertooth, you use terminology like patriarchy and misogyny.
Why is that?

 

[Grailhunter]

...just curious, how in the world are you defining bohemian?

Hippie, living with the shirt on your back...

 

[Grailhunter]

Wait, did you just imply that some scriptures caused harm?

Yeap

 

[DNB]

Hippie, living with the shirt on your back...

ok, ....how in the world does that relate to Complementarianism, or Egalitarianism?

 

[teamventure]

Yeap

But of course you meant scripture that people abused not that there was anything wrong with the scripture itself. Am I right? Just checking.