Was Paul Right About Women In Church?

[TLHKAJ]

Almost everything my wife wants to do is good. The challenge is her impulsiveness does not always align with the budget.

I know many men who are exactly like that. This isn't a "female" issue.

 

[Wrangler]

If you want a "men's health" department in hospitals, advocate for it.

I’m not an equalitarian; just showing the flagrant hypocrisy of feminists who strive for victory under the guise of equality.

When feminists start advocating for societal changes that benefit men, then I’ll believe their commitment to equality has any truth to it.

 

[Sabertooth]

Let me put it this way; we are supposed to take the plank out of our own eyes first, not never take the spec out of our wife’s eye.

Womanly verses "Women/wives, do this..." are written to women (who, BTW, are not children).
They do not say, "Men, get your women to do this..."
Men are not graced to process those things on behalf of their women. We cannot replace the Holy Spirit for our wives (and, trust me, we really do not want to).

Do you want your wife to be conformed to your image, or the image of Jesus [1 John 3:2]?
If you said the latter, do you know how to get her there [1 Corinthians 13:12]?

 

[Sabertooth]

I know many men who are exactly like that. This isn't a "female" issue.

That issue just depends on who is better at handling money. It could be either one. Or both.
Worst case, neither.

 

[Wrangler]

I know many men who are exactly like that. This isn't a "female" issue.

No. A "female" issue“ is submitting to the God given authority of her husband.

I do what my wife wants almost all the time. No problem. Whenever it is time for my wife to do what I want, that’s when the trouble begins. Not 50:50 but 98:2 is hard for her. The difficulty women have with submitting to her husband’s authority is why it is in the Bible.

Likewise, the reason the Bible commands men to love their wife like when they were first together is that is the difficulty men have. There is a great book On Love and Respect that I’ll post later. In short, feminism falsely teaches respect only if it is earned (and they, in their god-like judgment deem it is never earned) but the Bible says respect unconditionally.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I do what my wife wants almost all the time. No problem. Whenever it is time for my wife to do what I want, that’s when the trouble begins. Not 50:50 but 98:2 is hard for her. The difficulty women have with submitting to her husband’s authority is why it is in the Bible.

Brother, this as an issue that begins with you, the husband. It seems like something is amiss. Love her as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. If you're loving her the way God intended, she will joyfully and willingly submit to your headship.

It's the very same as us, when we come face to face with God's love, it is an automatic spontaneous response to LOVE HIM BACK!!! And then, His commandments are not grievous to us. We keep His commands because we love Him. (I get excited about that!!! )

 

[TLHKAJ]

There is a great book On Love and Respect that I’ll post later. In short, feminism falsely teaches respect only if it is earned (and they, in their god-like judgment deem it is never earned) but the Bible says respect unconditionally.

Let's say there is a woman who is a believer and follower of Christ, and her husband professes to be as well. But he requires things of her that are in direct violation of God's commands for a husband and in direct violation of God's Word for her. Should she just obey or submit to his wishes?

What if he wanted her to dress in ways that she felt uncomfortable with, in front of other men? What if she was being subjected to domestic violence? Should she submit to his authority and headship and be physically harmed? Or worse, should she submit to being a tool in the enemy's hands to be used in inappropriate ways ...if that's what her husband wants?

Would you say in this case she should respect him?
Or would you say... it is better to obey God than man?

What do you say about this in light of scripture?

(I already know my answer... I will share later.)

 

[Wrangler]

Womanly verses "Women/wives, do this..." are written to women (who, BTW, are not children).
They do not say, "Men, get your women to do this..."

Who told you Womanly verses "Women/wives, do this..." are written to women? As if women get to decide for themselves the limits of their responsibilities!

I’ll try that tactic with my wife, the next time she tries to get me to do something: you know, manly verses “Men/husbands, do this’ are written for men. They do not say, "Women, get your man to do this..." The self-emasculating ideology needs to stop! There is no point tip toeing around the issue.

So, you deny the Bible repeatedly states that husbands have authority over their wives; that wives are supposed to submit to the God-given authority of their husbands?

God is a God of order and it is inconceivable he’d embrace modern sensibilities of ‘equality’ as that ensures unending conflict in the home. Naturally, God being a God of peace has a mechanism in place to resolve conflict in this most intimate Earthly relationship.

 

[Wrangler]

If you're loving her the way God intended, she will joyfully and willingly submit to your headship.

If she will joyfully and willingly submit to your headship, I’ll love her as God intended.

How does that shoe fit?

 

[101G]

This is the truth. Thank you for presenting it so clearly. I've tried to share this information on other forums and it didn't go over well. Idk why so many men don't want it to be so. Paul said what he said about women, but we still have to take it in balance and in light of the rest of scripture. Paul himself recommended women in positions within the church.

I heard one teaching (by a man) say that the reason Paul spoke about not suffering a woman to speak was because in that area, they had been steeped for generations in Dianna worship. They needed to learn to respect the house of God, do things orderly, etc. Men had been silenced and needed to learn to be head of the home, etc.

first thanks for the reply, but in reading the bible, I have never read where the apostle Paul suffered a woman not to teach, only the Wife, because by having a husban, he is suppose to teach his ... "OWN" wife the things of God at home first. so that they would say the say the same things at church, as every other christian was saying, hence no confusion.
see, a husband, by law is to teach his wife....... at home first. that's why the apostle said, 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.". so he was speaking of WIVES, and not women in General.

hope that help.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Sabertooth]

Who told you Womanly verses "Women/wives, do this..." are written to women? As if women get to decide for themselves the limits of their responsibilities!

Therein lies the problem. You deny your wife's agency when it is not your place to do so.

Women will be blessed if/when they do things God's way --just like we men will be blessed, if/when we do things God's way-- but that blessing can only occur when we surrender to His will, not by doing so grudgingly.

 

[TLHKAJ]

see, a husband, by law is to teach his wife....... at home first.

Yes, thank you. I agree...as in these verses (specifically, vs 26).

Ephesians 5:24-27 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ²⁴ Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. ²⁵ Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; ²⁶ That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, ²⁷ That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

I think that is the most loving thing a husband could do for his wife. It's a beautiful thing, when he cares enough to discuss the Word and teach, and converse on the Word with his wife.

 

[DNB]

Why do we assume that, while they were prophesying?
I would agree that the gift of prophecy does not confer full-time authority,
but the gift by definition, imposes momentary authority.

Jeremiah, Jonah nor Elijah did not have authority, per se. The did not delegate orders and demand obedience, they were simply messengers that were obligated to proclaim oracles from God. Their listeners were not punished due to their defiance or contempt towards the messenger, but towards the message. Balaam's donkey did not have authority, nor did Balaam, but the message that they announced did.

 

[DNB]

When you can open your eyes to see that God will use anyone He chooses to speak through then you begin to realize He is not concerned with a man's status or a women's status but rather He is more interested in who will be an obedient vessel and allow Him to speak through them....a servant who will honor His Truth in ministering to the needs of others. A good Samaritan who tends to the one who is wounded and gives them shelter and care.
Church is not just an assembly of believers who come together in a building and worship God....
Church is on a street corner ministering to the prostitute who has been crying out for someone to save her.
Church is in the backyard of Grandma's house with family members who have gathered to comfort each other and honor her life. Sharing testimony with one another about when she would teach them scriptures and such.
Church is everywhere and every chance and every place....until the gospel has been preached to every corner of the world.
And if God needs to speak to someone through the mouth of a donkey, a man, a woman or whatever and whoever is matters not to Him.
All He wants is willing and obedient vessels.

Yes, but not all functions of the Church are of authoritative positions. Although God uses many different types of instruments to proclaim His Word, He hasn't given them all the same authority that an Apostle may have, or an Elder.
I am not demeaning any one's particular role in the Church, but appreciating that there is a hierarchy of discipline and functionality.
Preach and prophecy as much as one may be able to do, according to their faith, but do not cross the boundaries of someone else's authority.
Recent converts, despite their age, should not be given too much license to speak or expound as they may. Children do not teach adults, do not lay your hands on anyone too readily, ....
Their is discipline and order in the Church.

 

[DNB]

Did not say that Calvinists are bad people. And I am sure that most know that due respect for women in some denominations are askew. I am saying it is wrong. Christianity did come out of a male dominant society and religious environment, but the character and desire to subjugate women lead Christianity down a path of social / religious insanity, certainly evil.

So many denominations because men did not understand the scriptures...the history of Christianity gives no support for male leadership or understanding. I keep saying that over and above all, to understand Christianity, it is important to not only understand what Christ said, but also His heart and character....what he did...what happened.

The Savior of the world was delivered by a woman. He could have appeared on a mountain top...
Women financially supported his ministry. No indication of financial support by males.
Christ always came to the aid of and defended women.
Christ sent the woman at the well on a mission that the Apostles could not have accomplished.
The word Messiah does not mean Savior...it means "anointed one"....only women anointed Christ and sometimes with some of the Apostles disapproving. Anointing in the Bible was performed by persons of authority...usually high priests.
Many of Christ's male disciples abandoned Him when He told them about the bread and wine ritual.
The Apostles abandoned Christ in the garden of Gethsemane and ran off in fear and hid.
Peter denied Christ.
While the Apostles were hiding...the women were with Christ at the Cross....John...
It was the women and John and Joseph that took Christ body and prepared it and put it in a tomb...where were the other Apostles?
Hiding...did they even believe in Christ?
Was it the men that came to the tomb? No...it was the women...did the Apostles even believe that He was going to resurrect?
When Christ presented Himself, the women rejoiced! Nearly uncontrolable joy!
Then it was Christ that assigned a woman to announce the pinnacle moment in Christianity...Christ's resurrection. Did they believe?
Only some of the Apostles bothered to go to the tomb. But still did not believe.
Because when Christ presented Himself to the Apostles did they rejoice? No! They still did not believe, their first thought that He was a ghost.
And the Gospels indicate that there were some that still doubted even when He ascended to the Father.
All in all, among the men, it was only Peter and John that showed any signs of faith during Christ ministry.

So what was the real role of women in the Gospels? What role did women play during the most significant moments of Christ's life? Who had the most intimate relationship with God? Show a little respect. Even today, regardless of what us menz think we know... women seem to know the heart of Christ best.

I have incredible respect for any creature created in God's image, ....who abides as such.
Sorry, you may possibly be misconstruing my ultimate point, or how and why I perceive this authority to be. A few pages back I posted this to Pearl. Sorry if you were already aware, and I misconstrued your point....?

But Pearl, outside of some scoundrels, no person with a little bit of reasoning considers such a mandate as hierarchy of inferiority, subjectivity or tyranny. Which is why it is often referred to as Complementarianism.

As much as a child should not try and usurp the position of their parents, as much as a civilian should not defy the authority of a policeman, or any government official, it is improper for a being who was created after another, and as a help to another, to have authority over the initial being. Show me one wise man, and I will easily show you 10 wiser women, no problem, and vice versa. Even children often outgrow, out-mature, or outsmart their parents, it does not mean that they should ever challenge their inherent authority.

This is a call for men to step up to the plate, not to dominate women or children. In my opinion, he is to give his life, not only for his wife, but in any context, for the women and children. Only an incompetent fool (yes, the irony), would think that this principle is an opportunity to oppress women, or consider them as inferior, only a derelict and incompetent fool would hold that position!

 

[Grailhunter]

I have incredible respect for any creature created in God's image, ....who abides as such.
Sorry, you may possibly be misconstruing my ultimate point, or how and why I perceive this authority to be. A few pages back I posted this to Pearl. Sorry if you were already aware, and I misconstrued your point....?

But Pearl, outside of some scoundrels, no person with a little bit of reasoning considers such a mandate as hierarchy of inferiority, subjectivity or tyranny. Which is why it is often referred to as Complementarianism.

As much as a child should not try and usurp the position of their parents, as much as a civilian should not defy the authority of a policeman, or any government official, it is improper for a being who was created after another, and as a help to another, to have authority over the initial being. Show me one wise man, and I will easily show you 10 wiser women, no problem, and vice versa. Even children often outgrow, out-mature, or outsmart their parents, it does not mean that they should ever challenge their inherent authority.

This is a call for men to step up to the plate, not to dominate women or children. In my opinion, he is to give his life, not only for his wife, but in any context, for the women and children. Only an incompetent fool (yes, the irony), would think that this principle is an opportunity to oppress women, or consider them as inferior, only a derelict and incompetent fool would hold that position!

I am not hard headed...understood you the first time.
But there is an undertow to this current of reasoning.
It does not matter if you are kind to the subjugated. In like context, kind to the slaves.
Social and religious status of women should have been the same early on.
In marriage...two horses tied to a team, pulling together. No master. Each a leader in their own rite.
The voice of Christian women should be heard with the same authority. Church administration should be made up of both and Christianity would have been better served if it were that way from the beginning.

Christian societies that were male dominated hurt the lives of billions of women for centuries. Not only in religion. Social status of women in society or work place. Female medical arts are still feeling the affects of being neglected for centuries. The woman suffrage movement and ERA was not about hating men, it was about equal status in society. Women are human too. We all have mothers. Equal status in marriage, equal status in the church, equal status and pay in the work place, equal status in politics.

For that which is equitable, seems to be justice, and equity, goes beyond the written law.

 

[Wrangler]

In marriage...two horses tied to a team, pulling together. No master.

Where does the Bible say that?

 

[Wrangler]

Therein lies the problem. You deny your wife's agency when it is not your place to do so.

Hogwash. If you want to deny that husband's have authority over their wife's according to the Word of God, that's on you. Does Jesus not have authority over you because you have agency?

My boss is my authority. I still have agency but I am expected to submit to his authority. Not too complicated but necessary for order.

 

[Sabertooth]

Balaam's donkey did not have authority, nor did Balaam, but the message that they announced did.

Are you making my point for me, that the speaker being a woman does not disqualify her from speaking...?

 

[Grailhunter]

Where does the Bible say that?

Is there anything to learn from the character of Christ?