Was Peter ever in Rome? What saith the Scriptures?

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dragonfly

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Truth is still truth. You cannot change it. I showed that Truth can still be found outside of the Bible.

True that Truth cannot be changed. We are talking about Jesus Christ, the word of God. We know that what is written in 'the Bible' is less than all His acts and words (according to the apostle John's testimony), and that before the word of God was written down, and in the eras since the word of God was written down, God spoke and speaks sovereignly over all the other voices in this world. But only those who are seeking, or listening, hear Him.

We also know that the Holy Spirit only speaks about Christ.

So when you talk about unchanging Truth, and we talk about Christ, we are looking for agreement with the revelation of scripture. This is where the RCC falls woefully short. In a nutshell, 'Catholicism' cannot be found in the Bible.

That's the problem. All the defending of 'Catholicism' does, is indicate that Catholics don't understand the Bible. A worse problem is that to those who both know the Bible and understand it, it is clear that there have always been men in the Catholic hierarchy, who are willing to handle the word of God deceitfully.

They do 'know' what the Bible is saying, but they take the route of these teachers - Mark 11:31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? 32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.

Jesus said this of them: Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

It's strong language, I know, but this is how seriously Jesus Christ takes false teaching. (By the way, Jesus Christ is the Door of the sheep, the door which was opened in heaven. John 10:7)

So, what are you being party to as a teacher?

What is it you have believed which has no foundation in either the Bible or Christ?

What did Christ do for you, which you are being prevented from experiencing through the holding back of 'the Truth'?

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

If Catholics knew about these truths, and believed them, they would not be afraid of death or dying, and would recognise they have been wrongly instructed as to the Way to eternal life. Many Catholic rituals would seem pagan to them, as they do to us who have heard and believed the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished.

Notice: Paul did say 'is abolished'. This happened when Jesus Christ died, having cried out, 'It is finished'. Heb 10:20

There is nothing in Catholicism which vaguely indicates an understanding of 'It is finished', although that is the eternal truth you claim to be defending. Did you know? Jesus Christ broke the power of sin over the whole of mankind.


John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


The reason believers need to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, is to give them power to live free from sin, and to be able to hear what God wants to reveal to their understanding, and, to obey His will from minute to minute. This is what Jesus Christ purchased for mankind, Him being the ransom which was paid in full with His life blood, to buy us back from the kingdom of darkness.

Colossians 1:9 - 23
'... we ... desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that ye might walk worthy of the Lord to all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, to all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; giving thanks to the Father, who has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: in whom we have redemption through his blood - the forgiveness of sins:

who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things to himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel ...'

Clearly, I am not talking about the Catholic faith. I am talking about 'the faith' to which Paul refers: the faith which appears when the word of God is preached.

This faith cannot appear when the word of God is not preached. Any other faith is fleshly and misguided, and certainly cannot save a soul.
 
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Selene

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dragonfly said:
True that Truth cannot be changed. We are talking about Jesus Christ, the word of God. We know that what is written in 'the Bible' is less than all His acts and words (according to the apostle John's testimony), and that before the word of God was written down, and in the eras since the word of God was written down, God spoke and speaks sovereignly over all the other voices in this world. But only those who are seeking, or listening, hear Him.

We also know that the Holy Spirit only speaks about Christ.

So when you talk about unchanging Truth, and we talk about Christ, we are looking for agreement with the revelation of scripture. This is where the RCC falls woefully short. In a nutshell, 'Catholicism' cannot be found in the Bible.

That's the problem. All the defending of 'Catholicism' does, is indicate that Catholics don't understand the Bible. A worse problem is that to those who both know the Bible and understand it, it is clear that there have always been men in the Catholic hierarchy, who are willing to handle the word of God deceitfully.

They do 'know' what the Bible is saying, but they take the route of these teachers - Mark 11:31 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him? 32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.

Jesus said this of them: Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

It's strong language, I know, but this is how seriously Jesus Christ takes false teaching. (By the way, Jesus Christ is the Door of the sheep, the door which was opened in heaven. John 10:7)

So, what are you being party to as a teacher?

What is it you have believed which has no foundation in either the Bible or Christ?

What did Christ do for you, which you are being prevented from experiencing through the holding back of 'the Truth'?

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

2 Timothy 1:9 Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

If Catholics knew about these truths, and believed them, they would not be afraid of death or dying, and would recognise they have been wrongly instructed as to the Way to eternal life. Many Catholic rituals would seem pagan to them, as they do to us who have heard and believed the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished.

Notice: Paul did say 'is abolished'. This happened when Jesus Christ died, having cried out, 'It is finished'. Heb 10:20

There is nothing in Catholicism which vaguely indicates an understanding of 'It is finished', although that is the eternal truth you claim to be defending. Did you know? Jesus Christ broke the power of sin over the whole of mankind.


John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


The reason believers need to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, is to give them power to live free from sin, and to be able to hear what God wants to reveal to their understanding, and, to obey His will from minute to minute. This is what Jesus Christ purchased for mankind, Him being the ransom which was paid in full with His life blood, to buy us back from the kingdom of darkness.

Colossians 1:9 - 23
'... we ... desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that ye might walk worthy of the Lord to all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, to all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; giving thanks to the Father, who has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: in whom we have redemption through his blood - the forgiveness of sins:

who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things to himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: if ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel ...'

Clearly, I am not talking about the Catholic faith. I am talking about 'the faith' to which Paul refers: the faith which appears when the word of God is preached.

This faith cannot appear when the word of God is not preached. Any other faith is fleshly and misguided, and certainly cannot save a soul.
There are many things that are not found in the Bible, but that does not mean that they are not true. For example, one cannot accuse us of not following something that was never written in the Bible. For example, we know that the Apostle Peter and Paul died in Rome, and we know that the Apostle Thomas died in India. The deaths of the Apostles were never recorded in the Bible; nevertheless, our Christian brothers often accuse us of going against something that was never even stated in scripture. I'm sure that we can all agree that the Apostles died. But why accuse us of going against scripture just because we say that the Apostle Peter and Paul died in Rome while Thomas died in India?? The Apostles were real people, and they did not exist only in the Bible. There are written records of them outside the Bible, and that is why we know that Peter and Paul died in Rome and Thomas died in India. If you can believe the historical records of Ghengish Khan who lived long before the Apostles, then the historical records of the Apostles are also truth.
 

dragonfly

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There are many things that are not found in the Bible, but that does not mean that they are not true.

It would be nice if the Roman Catholics on this board would acknowledge that the obligation scripture lays upon us, is to believe it, and to abide by the teaching of the Great Apostle, Jesus Christ, both through the revelation of Himself in the Old Testament, and, in the New Testament.

Any Christian who studies the Bible actively and co-operatively with God, will find themselves being furnished for eternal life. They will also find themselves being approved by God as they serve Him in worship and ministry.

The question which arises for Catholics, is: am I harming my reputation with God, by doing things He has expressly forbidden in scripture?
 
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Selene

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dragonfly said:
It would be nice if the Roman Catholics on this board would acknowledge that the obligation scripture lays upon us, is to believe it, and to abide by the teaching of the Great Apostle, Jesus Christ, both through the revelation of Himself in the Old Testament, and, in the New Testament.

Any Christian who studies the Bible actively and co-operatively with God, will find themselves being furnished for eternal life. They will also find themselves being approved by God as they serve Him in worship and ministry.

The question which arises for Catholics, is: am I harming my reputation with God, by doing things He has expressly forbidden in scripture?
We do abide by it. As I said, nowhere in Scripture does it say that George Washington was the first President of the United States, but you all recognize it to be truth despite that it's not found in the Bible. Therefore, Peter was in Rome because that is the truth. .
 

Axehead

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Selene said:
We do abide by it. As I said, nowhere in Scripture does it say that George Washington was the first President of the United States, but you all recognize it to be truth despite that it's not found in the Bible. Therefore, Peter was in Rome because that is the truth. .
And that is the kind of thinking that allows the Catholic hierarchy to create whatever they want to create and call it "divine"!

Just makes you wonder what's next and we have all learned not to be surprised by the next concoction from the RCC. It would be comical if it wasn't so tragic.
 

Selene

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Axehead said:
And that is the kind of thinking that allows the Catholic hierarchy to create whatever they want to create and call it "divine"!

Just makes you wonder what's next and we have all learned not to be surprised by the next concoction from the RCC. It would be comical if it wasn't so tragic.
It's called logical common sense thinking. Are you telling me that George Washington was never the first President of the United States? Are you telling me that Genghis Khan did not exist a long time before?
 

Rex

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Selene said:
It's called logical common sense thinking. Are you telling me that George Washington was never the first President of the United States? Are you telling me that Genghis Khan did not exist a long time before?
Common sense is not IMO disregarding the inspired word of God, which is complete, able to instruct a man into the knowledge of the Lord, bringing salvation and power threw the Holy Spirit.
Common sense doesn't ignore such a message. Common sense doesn't add or take away from the message. Have you noticed that's exactly what the serpent did in the garden to Eve? He questioned Gods word, then he made a promise, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God.

You come here nearly everyday with the same game plan.
1} did God really say --->> The Bible --- VS--->> the RCC
2} But If you eat of the tree called the catholic church your eyes will be opened.

Its the same game plan, the results will be the same as well.
 
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dragonfly

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Hi SIM,

I thought you'd enjoy looking through this thread. Here you will find quite a lot of information which is already in the public domain on CyB.



Blessings.
 

SilenceInMotion

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Rome was consistently refferred to as Babylon by Jews. You see it in a lot of apocrypha, especially the Syllabine Oracles. But more importantly, you see it in the Bible as well. Babylon is spoken of in a symbolic fashion thereafter the original Babylon, being the apex government or civilization. Rome undoubtedly was the modern, superior face of the whole world at the time, but Rome later lost that title.

As a matter of fact, so did the original Babylon itslef. Looking at the prophies of Daniel, one is faced with the fact that Babylon is metaphorical and shifts through history. Some people say China is the new Babylon, others say the United States. I personally have my money on the UK, because diplomatic power is not just about big guns and money- they are crusading the world with their own moral pallete and political agendas, what with all the atheist apologists, anti-gun activists, gay marriage ultimatums, changing church doctrines, and such. It bleeds with Revelation prophesy.

But hey, call me crazy.

Peter's seat being in Rome has always been universally accepted, even by the churches who dissented from the Church in the great schism. There's just something about modern Protestants that just feel the need to pretty much call the whole of Christian history a lie because it's become commonplace for Protestants to be definitively anti-Catholic in every sense possible, something that even it's founders would frown on.
 

Axehead

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SilenceInMotion said:
But hey, call me crazy.
Well, those are your words so I will let them stand.

65 A.D.(ca) Peter writes from "Babylon" on the Euphrates river - as indicated by the statement: "She that is in Babylon saluteth you." (I Peter 5:13).

1. There was a strong Jewish colony in Babylon at that time and Peter "had been entrusted with the gospel of the circumcision." (Gal 2:7)

2. Since Claudius had commanded "All Jews to depart from Rome" (Acts 18:3), it would be difficult to understand why Peter would go there to carry out his assignment to the Jews.

3. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that Peter is speaking symbolically of Rome when he says "Babylon," for there is no such symbolic usage until John's Revelation letter.

4. After 96 A.D., when Revelation was composed, the Imperial City of Rome was symbolically and classically called "Babylon" by both Christian and secular writers.

5. Catholic writers universally say that "Babylon" of I Peter 5:13 is Rome (which it isn't), and then generally denythat "Babylon" of Revelation 17:5 is Rome (which it is).
 
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Rex

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SilenceInMotion said:
Rome was consistently refferred to as Babylon by Jews. You see it in a lot of apocrypha, especially the Syllabine Oracles. But more importantly, you see it in the Bible as well. Babylon is spoken of in a symbolic fashion thereafter the original Babylon, being the apex government or civilization. Rome undoubtedly was the modern, superior face of the whole world at the time, but Rome later lost that title.

As a matter of fact, so did the original Babylon itslef. Looking at the prophies of Daniel, one is faced with the fact that Babylon is metaphorical and shifts through history. Some people say China is the new Babylon, others say the United States. I personally have my money on the UK, because diplomatic power is not just about big guns and money- they are crusading the world with their own moral pallete and political agendas, what with all the atheist apologists, anti-gun activists, gay marriage ultimatums, changing church doctrines, and such. It bleeds with Revelation prophesy.

But hey, call me crazy.

Peter's seat being in Rome has always been universally accepted, even by the churches who dissented from the Church in the great schism. There's just something about modern Protestants that just feel the need to pretty much call the whole of Christian history a lie because it's become commonplace for Protestants to be definitively anti-Catholic in every sense possible, something that even it's founders would frown on.
So tell me was Rome still considered Babylon in 380? When under the Roman emperor all other religions were banned and your church became the official state religion of Rome? That IMO is not a very "to be proud of" foundation

Theodosius promoted Nicene Trinitarian Christianity within the Empire. On 27 February 380, he declared the "Catholic Church"
the only legitimate Imperial religion, ending official state support for the traditional pagan religions and officially ending pagan sacrifice and religious rituals.[12][13]

[12]^ Theodosian Code XVI.i.2, Medieval Sourcebook: Banning of Other Religions[/list]
[13]^ Noel Harold Kaylor; Philip Edward Phillips (3 May 2012), A Companion to Boethius in the Middle Ages, BRILL, pp. 14–, ISBN 978-90-04-18354-4, retrieved 19 January 2013
 

dragonfly

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Hi SIM,

the whole of Christian history
is available in two versions - the Catholic version, and the other one.


John 4:23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.


John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


If anyone has difficulty working out which account of history is 'true', the Spirit of truth is all you need to guide you.
 

SilenceInMotion

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is available in two versions - the Catholic version, and the other one.
The actual one, and the anti-catholic one. Not to be confused with Protestantism- Luther never denied what anti-catholics deny today.

Discern the difference: the reformers believed it didn't matter <> Protestants today believe it never happened

After enough time goes by, one can deny anything it seems. It's amazing that the same people even believe an ancient collection of books when they cannot even accept later history- put by the peopleof that history. One tends to think that Romans and Greeks know more about Roman and Greek history.
 

Axehead

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Anyway, we have the testimony of many witnesses or the lack thereof. And the FACTS are, no one in the NT saw or commented about Peter being in Rome. Not Paul, not Luke, not anyone.

So, fabricate on with your contrived and revisionist theology and history.
 

ScottAU

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Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter - G4074 - Petros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

Rock - G4073- Petra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.


Different words. :)
 
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Selene

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ScottAU said:
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter - G4074 - Petros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

Rock - G4073- Petra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.


Different words. :)

Actually, Christ never spoke Greek. He spoke Aramaic. The name of Peter in Aramaic is "Cephas". So, when Christ was speaking to Simon and changed his name, Christ said, "You are Cephas, and upon this Cephas I will build my Church." The aramaic word for "rock" is "Cephas."

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas" (which, when translated, is Peter [fn]).
 

dragonfly

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Hi Selene,

It doesn't matter what language Jesus Christ spoke, because the NT was written by Greek-speakers who knew its vocabulary and construction. It is inconceivable that they would choose the wrong word for 'rock' or 'stone', just like you would not confuse the two when speaking in English.
 
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