Was Peter thr Rock that the Church was built upon?

[BreadOfLife]

It seems that whenever the pope is mentioned on most forums, the lies, ignorance, false histories and plain bigotry rears its ugly head. We are well aware of the >3% of bad popes, (who never taught anything) but most are not aware of the 100% of the early reformers moral deficiencies. I avoid posting it but I will if provoked. Contrary to the Hollywood image, most popes have been good, holy servants of the gospel.

Yup.
The problem with people like mjrhealth is that he thinks that just because there were a couple of instances where there was no Pope for 1 or 2 years after a pope died - that this constitutes a "break" in Succession and/or Church Authority. In one of those instances, the Pope had been martyred (St. Marcellinus) but there was still an authoritative hierarchy via the Bishops.

The dishonesty of posters like this is almost as tragic as their Scriptural and historical ignorance . . .

 

[Mungo]

Yup.
The problem with people like mjrhealth is that he thinks that just because there were a couple of instances where there was no Pope for 1 or 2 years after a pope died - that this constitutes a "break" in Succession and/or Church Authority. In one of those instances, the Pope had been martyred (St. Marcellinus) but there was still an authoritative hierarchy via the Bishops.

The dishonesty of posters like this is almost as tragic as their Scriptural and historical ignorance . . .

Exactly!

The Papacy is an office. If the incumbent dies or resigns the office continues. The office does not cease to exist.

With some offices there is an automatic succession. For example if the President of the USA dies (or resigns) the Vice-President automatically fills the office.

There was a time when there was no automatic succession if the Vice-President died or resigned, and the office remained vacant for about three and a half years. But that didn't mean the office of Vice-President ceased to exist. It was just vacant..

 

[BreadOfLife]

Exactly!

The Papacy is an office. If the incumbent dies or resigns the office continues. The office does not cease to exist.

With some offices there is an automatic succession. For example if the President of the USA dies (or resigns) the Vice-President automatically fills the office.

There was a time when there was no automatic succession if the Vice-President died or resigned, and the office remained vacant for about three and a half years. But that didn't mean the office of Vice-President ceased to exist. It was just vacant..

Yup.

Another perfect example is that of the current vacancy in the Supreme Court.
The Court doesn't "cease" to exist just because Justice Antonin Scalia died and has not yet been replaced.

 

[FHII]

Exactly!

The Papacy is an office. If the incumbent dies or resigns the office continues. The office does not cease to exist.

With some offices there is an automatic succession. For example if the President of the USA dies (or resigns) the Vice-President automatically fills the office.

There was a time when there was no automatic succession if the Vice-President died or resigned, and the office remained vacant for about three and a half years. But that didn't mean the office of Vice-President ceased to exist. It was just vacant..

1. I do believe that when there is no one in office for a year to 3 years that the line of succession has been broken.
2. Its not that big of a deal unless someone claims it wasn't broken. And Catholic claim that.
3. Its not that big of a deal because of the time and political situation of when it happened. Just be honest about it.
4. Incidently, I can show where the geneology of Jesus (the begats) were broken by God himself. Now, if you Catholics are nice.... I will tell you. It would actually solve your delemnas of bad popes and no popes.
5. I have to defend Mjrhealth on a point: he never brought up the <3% bad popes (at least not in the segment recently). He simply denied the authority of the Pope.
6. I brought this up before but got no comments on it: Simon bar Jonah was not named Peter because of his revelation. He received that name before doing anything other than meeting Jesus.
7. Peter was sent to the Jews. Paul was sent to the gentiles and Jesus said specifically he was sent to testify in Rome. Peter testified to one gentile who was an Italian. In other words, if anyone was the first Pope or bishop of Rome, it was Paul.
8. I reckon that calling the first 20 so-called Popes "popes" is like calling the Cleveland Browns Superbowl Champions.

Why? Well, the Browns never won the Superbowl. But thwy were NFL champs in 1964. The first Superbowl was in 1967. But if I can say it doesn't matter when SB1 was and extend the title of Superbowl Champs back to the very first football game... Then yes the Cleveland Browns are Superbowl Champs.

Well, thats what the Catholic Church has done. They were formed centuries after Peter, Linus, Clement and simply annexed them as Popes.

9. This one is just for fun... Catholics love to note that 1 peter 5 notes that Peter said the Church at Babylon salutes you, and that means Rome....

Ok. Have it your way, cause I agree. Babylon was Rome.

Thus, henseforth we should stick to tradition and from now on call the Catholic Church by its rightful name: The Church of Babylon!

 

[BreadOfLife]

1. I do believe that when there is no one in office for a year to 3 years that the line of succession has been broken.
2. Its not that big of a deal unless someone claims it wasn't broken. And Catholic claim that.
3. Its not that big of a deal because of the time and political situation of when it happened. Just be honest about it.
4. Incidently, I can show where the geneology of Jesus (the begats) were broken by God himself. Now, if you Catholics are nice.... I will tell you. It would actually solve your delemnas of bad popes and no popes.
5. I have to defend Mjrhealth on a point: he never brought up the <3% bad popes (at least not in the segment recently). He simply denied the authority of the Pope.
6. I brought this up before but got no comments on it: Simon bar Jonah was not named Peter because of his revelation. He received that name before doing anything other than meeting Jesus.
7. Peter was sent to the Jews. Paul was sent to the gentiles and Jesus said specifically he was sent to testify in Rome. Peter testified to one gentile who was an Italian. In other words, if anyone was the first Pope or bishop of Rome, it was Paul.
8. I reckon that calling the first 20 so-called Popes "popes" is like calling the Cleveland Browns Superbowl Champions.

Why? Well, the Browns never won the Superbowl. But thwy were NFL champs in 1964. The first Superbowl was in 1967. But if I can say it doesn't matter when SB1 was and extend the title of Superbowl Champs back to the very first football game... Then yes the Cleveland Browns are Superbowl Champs.

Well, thats what the Catholic Church has done. They were formed centuries after Peter, Linus, Clement and simply annexed them as Popes.

9. This one is just for fun... Catholics love to note that 1 peter 5 notes that Peter said the Church at Babylon salutes you, and that means Rome....

Ok. Have it your way, cause I agree. Babylon was Rome.

Thus, henseforth we should stick to tradition and from now on call the Catholic Church by its rightful name: The Church of Babylon!

Most credible Christian scholars have long-abandoned the silly Catholic Church/Whore of Babylon nonsense because of the lack of Scriptural evidence. However, you still have wack-jobs like Dave Hunt who clings to this fairy tale. Many scholars believe the Whore to be Israel or more specifically, Jerusalem.

As for the unbroken line of Succession – you have proven nothing. YOUR opinions about how many years makes a broken line is just that: YOUR opinion. Where did you get your imaginary limit of 3 years??

As for there being a small percentage of “bad Popes” – I don’t know why that would surprise anybody that there are some bad people in the Church. Jesus and Paul warned about them and referred to them as “wolves”. The fact of the matter is that, as Kepha has already mentioned – NONE of those bad Popes ever taught heresy. It was their behavior that was bad – not the teachings of the Church.

Simon bar Jonah was named “Kepha”, which simply means “ROCK”. You see, Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic – NOT Greek.This is why we see him referred to in Paul’s letters – NOT as “Peter”, but as “Cephas”, which is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic “Kepha”.

As for the Bishop of Rome being called “Pope” – your ignorance is rearing its ugly head.
“Pope” or “Papa” is simply a term of endearment, meaning “Father”. None of the official titles of the Bishop of Rome are “Pope”. It’s a nickname that developed over time.

Finally – as to the Catholic Church having formed “centuries after” Peter – the burden of proof is on YOU. You see, my historically-bankrupt friend – the title of “The Catholic Church” was around LONG before Ignatius of Antioch wrote his Letter to the Smyrnaeans at the dawn of the 2nd century while his mentor and teacher John the Apostle was presumably STILL alive. If what YOU say is true – can you produce the document, declaration or decree that gave birth to the Catholic Church “centuries later”??

Yeah – that’s what I thought . . .


PS - The Catholic Church is the Church IN Rome - not OF Rome.
Christ's Church is not OF the world - it's IN the world . . .

 

[FHII]

The mods have called for concluding comments. I have given mine. The Church of Babylon have abused that call as they have continuously posted their say afterwards.

Not my say... If the mods are ok with Babylonians running amok, fine.

 

[FHII]

Most credible Christian scholars have long-abandoned the silly Catholic Church/Whore of Babylon nonsense because of the lack of Scriptural evidence. However, you still have wack-jobs like Dave Hunt who clings to this fairy tale. Many scholars believe the Whore to be Israel or more specifically, Jerusalem

Aww heck. Just can't let this go... So is it the Babylonian Chuches stance that Israel, Jerusalem and the Jews who are the whore of Babylon?

I mean... I didn't even go there but that is what bread of life took it to.

Israel is the whore of Babylon. So saith the Church of Babylon!

 

[FHII]

As for the unbroken line of Succession – you have proven nothing. YOUR opinions about how many years makes a broken line is just that: YOUR opinion. Where did you get your imaginary limit

As opposed to your opinion? Hey... A broken line is a broken line. I even said it wasn't a big deal. I even have Bible to prove it isn't a big deal and offered it to you. And you rejected it.

 

[FHII]

As for the unbroken line of Succession – you have proven nothing. YOUR opinions about how many years makes a broken line is just that: YOUR opinion. Where did you get your imaginary limit

As opposed to your opinion? Hey... A broken line is a broken line. I even said it wasn't a big deal. I even have Bible to prove it isn't a big deal and offered it to you. And you rejected it.

 

[FHII]

As for there being a small percentage of “bad Popes” – I don’t know why that would surprise anybody that there are some bad people in the Church. Jesus and Paul warned about them and referred to them as “wolves”. The fact of the matter is that, as Kepha has already mentioned – NONE of those bad Popes ever taught heresy. It was their behavior that was bad – not the teachings of the Church.

Simon bar Jonah was named “Kepha”, which simply means “ROCK”. You see, Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic – NOT Greek.This is why we see him referred to in Paul’s letters – NOT as “Peter”, but as “Cephas”, which is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic “Kepha”.

.

Bad popes good popes... This is a made up controversy. No one ever brought it up except for you Babylonians. But I will bring it up now. If a Pope doesn't preach the truth, he is not a good Pope.

Thus, there hasn't been a good pope if they preach lies.

And Peter got his name long before Mat 16.

 

[FHII]

Call no man father... Need I say more?

 

[FHII]

No.. The burden of proof is on you! There is NO Biblical evidence fot the Catholic Church. Thats why when we ask for such you go to outside soucres.

 

[mjrhealth]

I was responding to YOUR nonsense about not showing respect for the Pope and I squashed that ignorance with Scripture.

What!! trying to embarrass me, have absolutely no respect for a man who has usurped our Lords position, calls himself a servant but dresses like a king, has the people serve and revere him instead of serving the people, and still you have absolutely no prrof nor any evidence of your church being our Lord church nor the succession from Peter. They dont when know where Peter died or when. So sad that here on this forum and others our Lords lambs teh young in Christ come here to seek Him and all they get is mens lies, mens doctrines and mens religions, what does it say about not wanting to enetr into heaven and not letting those desire to go in an oportunty to do so. And thanks for highlighting my tag, makes me feel so special that you noticed.

 

[tom55]

Call no man father... Need I say more?

Acts 7:2

Romans 9:10

Need I say more??? (I can, if you like, and completely destroy your theory)

 

[mjrhealth]

Need I say more??? (I can, if you like, and completely destroy your theory)

So blind

Jas_1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

 

[BreadOfLife]

As opposed to your opinion? Hey... A broken line is a broken line. I even said it wasn't a big deal. I even have Bible to prove it isn't a big deal and offered it to you. And you rejected it.

A broken line is taking another direction.
A broken line is not a pause in the line.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Bad popes good popes... This is a made up controversy. No one ever brought it up except for you Babylonians. But I will bring it up now. If a Pope doesn't preach the truth, he is not a good Pope.

Thus, there hasn't been a good pope if they preach lies.

And Peter got his name long before Mat 16.

If a Pope teaches wrong doctrine, then he can't be a real Pope.
Thankfully - this has never happened.

And no matter when Peter got his name - he is still "Kepha" now isn't he?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Call no man father... Need I say more?

Really??
Time for another Bible lesson my ignorant friend . . .

God commands us to honor our FATHER and mother (Exod. 20:12).
St. Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
St. Paul speaks of "our father Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).

In Matt. 23:9, Jesus is using hyperbole (exaggeration) to make a point and does so many times in Scripture. In the verse that precedes this (Matt: 23:8), Jesus tells us not to call people “Teachers”.

Is Jesus telling us that we can’t call certain people "fathers" or “teachers” when they may actually be fathers or teachers? The answer is a resounding, “No.” He is telling us that no man is to be considered father above our Father in heaven and no person is to be considered teacher above our Teacher in heaven.

Jesus was speaking about the Scribes and Pharisees who exalted themselves before all: “They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi.”(Matt 23:6-7)

 

[BreadOfLife]

No.. The burden of proof is on you! There is NO Biblical evidence fot the Catholic Church. Thats why when we ask for such you go to outside soucres.

There is no Biblical evidence for ANY Protestant denomination.
They all started AFTER the 16th century. The Catholic Church existed in the FIRST century.

As for Biblical evidence, time for another Bible lesson . . .

Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church:
“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

According to Strong’s Greek Concordance – the verse is translated as:
“The true Church throughout all Judea . . .”

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας
The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “ekklesia katah-holos”.

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH
Καθ (katah) - Through out, according to
Ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely

"Ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

This is the title that Ignatius of Antioch used in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans at the beginning of the 2nd century while the Apostle John is believed to have been alive.
Back then, there was NO internet, NO TV, NO newspapers, NO radio.

For a title like this to be as well-known as Ignatius implies - it would have taken YEARS of word-of-mouth transaction.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So blind

Jas_1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Read post #318, Einstein, which completely destroys your whole "Call no man father" nonsense . . .