We’re the two witnesses from the past?

[ewq1938]

The Olivit discourse and 70AD is so much more that just the physical destruction of the city and the temple.

It’s also the physical end of the old covenant era.

That happened at the cross. Only Christians could understand that though. Jews of Judaism wouldn't and still don't.

 

[ewq1938]

How can it be after the 7th trumpet when it says that the 7th trumpet is the end of our world? When the 7th trumpet blows the says

The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This takes us right to the great white throne judgment in chapter 20

No, it takes us to Rev 19 and the first part of Rev 20, then a thousand years takes place, and then defeating a small rebellion and then and only then will the unsaved dead be judged and punished. That does not happen at the second coming judgment and rewarding mentioned in the verse above in your post.

 

[Marty fox]

No, it takes us to Rev 19 and the first part of Rev 20, then a thousand years takes place, and then defeating a small rebellion and then and only then will the unsaved dead be judged and punished. That does not happen at the second coming judgment and rewarding mentioned in the verse above in your post.

So what does

The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

mean to you?

What exactly does it mean when it says NOW
the time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”?

It says NOW

 

[Marty fox]

That happened at the cross. Only Christians could understand that though. Jews of Judaism wouldn't and still don't.

Of course the Old covenant ended as the cross but the Jews kept their physical act going and every one was a rejection of Jesus so God physically put and end to it.

Weren’t the deciples and the first Christian’s Jews?

 

[ewq1938]

Of course the Old covenant ended as the cross but the Jews kept their physical act going and every one was a rejection of Jesus so God physically put and end to it.

There's so much assumption there without biblical support. The Roman's destroyed the temple, not God and it didn't "end" the main issue which is systematic and religious denial of the true Messiah. Judaism continued passed Ad70, denial continued etc.

Weren’t the deciples and the first Christian’s Jews?

Yep. Isn't green grass green? Aren't we conversing in English?

 

[ewq1938]

So what does

The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

mean to you?

I think I addressed that already. The dead and living in Christ are judged at the second coming. The first 4 lines is about that. The last line addresses what happens at Armageddon. Those will be resurrected a thousand years after the second coming with "the rest of the dead" in the second resurrection.

What exactly does it mean when it says NOW
the time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”?

It says NOW

No, it doesn't. You posted the passage. Did you not read it?

 

[Marty fox]

There's so much assumption there without biblical support. The Roman's destroyed the temple, not God and it didn't "end" the main issue which is systematic and religious denial of the true Messiah. Judaism continued passed Ad70, denial continued etc.





Yep. Isn't green grass green? Aren't we conversing in English?

Really?

Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”


If the Christian Jews could figure it out then any Jew could

 

[Marty fox]

I think I addressed that already. The dead and living in Christ are judged at the second coming. The first 4 lines is about that. The last line addresses what happens at Armageddon. Those will be resurrected a thousand years after the second coming with "the rest of the dead" in the second resurrection.






No, it doesn't. You posted the passage. Did you not read it?

You’re right it doesn’t actually say NOW that’s my bad so I can admit when I make a mistake but that doesn’t change the text because it says “the time has come“.

Whats the time has come mean what’s the time has come mean to you?

It means now.

 

[ewq1938]

You’re right it doesn’t actually say NOW that’s my bad so I can admit when I make a mistake but that doesn’t change the text because it says “the time has come“.

Whats the time has come mean what’s the time has come mean to you?

It means now.

You are skipping the other part of the which is important. You think the unsaved dead are being judged in that verse when it actually is the dead in Christ being judged. Scripture says judgment begins with us, who is the church and also that the dead in Christ rise first. That matches Rev 20 where the first resurrection and judgment is for dead Christians, happening first and before any of the unsaved are resurrected and judged.

 

[David in NJ]

You’re right it doesn’t actually say NOW that’s my bad so I can admit when I make a mistake but that doesn’t change the text because it says “the time has come“.

Whats the time has come mean what’s the time has come mean to you?

It means now.

The "time" has come = 1,000 Year Reign begins

 

[Timtofly]

How can it be after the 7th trumpet when it says that the 7th trumpet is the end of our world? When the 7th trumpet blows the says

The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This takes us right to the great white throne judgment in chapter 20

Because the 42 months is an interruption. It is an extension of God's grace after time has ended.

You are missing the point the number 666 is an expiration stamp. Those with the mark have already expired, but still not physically dead. The 42 months is not something a farmer plans for when bringing in the final harvest. It means the end has been postponed and additional time has been added to gather the rest of the harvest.

Once a person is removed from the Lamb's book of life they receive the mark, and only God can remove their name and place the mark on their body. The GWT could already be seen at the 6th Seal. People do know who they are dealing with after the Second Coming.

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

After the 6th Seal is opened, all on earth can see God sitting on the GWT. They are fully aware of Jesus and the angels, who are now on the earth. Even if you just see this as symbolic and not part of the physical world, but spiritual, they are made aware of the fact that God is real, and about to bring down wrath upon them. But this is not Revelation 20, after current creation passes. This is even before the first Trumpet is heard.

 

[Marty fox]

Because the 42 months is an interruption. It is an extension of God's grace after time has ended.

You are missing the point the number 666 is an expiration stamp. Those with the mark have already expired, but still not physically dead. The 42 months is not something a farmer plans for when bringing in the final harvest. It means the end has been postponed and additional time has been added to gather the rest of the harvest.

Once a person is removed from the Lamb's book of life they receive the mark, and only God can remove their name and place the mark on their body. The GWT could already be seen at the 6th Seal. People do know who they are dealing with after the Second Coming.

"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

After the 6th Seal is opened, all on earth can see God sitting on the GWT. They are fully aware of Jesus and the angels, who are now on the earth. Even if you just see this as symbolic and not part of the physical world, but spiritual, they are made aware of the fact that God is real, and about to bring down wrath upon them. But this is not Revelation 20, after current creation passes. This is even before the first Trumpet is heard.

Your view of what 666 means contradicts John 3:16

 

[Timtofly]

So what does

The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

mean to you?

What exactly does it mean when it says NOW
the time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”?

It says NOW

The dead are those in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, still alive on the earth. At this moment we have two types of dead people on earth. Those in Christ born of the second birth. Those not in Christ, not yet born of the second birth. Both types are in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The rewards are given to those who will be given authority on the earth under Jesus as King of all the earth.

Jesus just redeemed the sheep and wheat from among men. Now they will rule on earth for the Day of The Lord.

The judgment of the dead is putting them all in the winepress of God's wrath and the wrath of the Lamb. Revelation 14

"And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

This happens when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding, a week of days. The first day of the week, being a Sunday is when the 7th Trumpet starts sounding. By the following Sunday the winepress of God's wrath will be finished.

Unless in the midst of this week, the Atonement Covenant is confirmed with the many. The many are those still named in the book of life but still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. These are those beheaded in the next 42 months. So time is extended and Satan has the 42 month, 8th kingdom.

And yes, it will start 4 days or sooner after Jesus as King of the world, is declared at the start of the 7th Kingdom. Revelation 11:15-17. This 42 month extension is the third woe. Otherwise Satan would be bound when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. The 7th kingdom will go on for the next 1,000 years.

If there is a 42 month extension, the winepress is on hold and happens at the battle of Armageddon instead. There are not 2 winepress events. You cannot kill all of humanity twice. It is one or the other. Revelation 14 with no 42 month Babylonian empire. Or Revelation 19, when Jesus and the sheep and wheat come back to take back the 7th Kingdom.

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Two alternate endings with a winepress. One outside of the city where the rest of humanity is gathered in Judgment. The other at Armageddon, an hour away from Jerusalem, with Jesus coming to reclaim the throne.

The first one while Jesus as King sits in Judgment in Jerusalem. The second one is 42 months later. Daniel 9:27 explains the second winepress. John experiences those 42 months as a witness, if it happens. But until the 7th Trumpet actually happens no one except God knows which winepress will happen. Daniel 9:27 is not a 7 year period. It is the days of the 7th Trumpet mentioned in Revelation 10, when time is declared up. The 70 weeks are declared up. That is the mystery of Daniel. The 7th Trumpet is the declaration of all things related to Adam's punishment as being over, and the Second Adam, Jesus as King is now the Lord over all the earth, as Adam failed that task.

The redemption is complete at the 7th Trumpet, because no one will exist in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, after the 7th Trumpet stops. They will all be as Adam was when created, a son of God. The only death in the Millennium, will be disobedient children, who are considered cursed per Isaiah 65:20

"the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

They will also be dead, and not allowed to live in sin, nor let sin enter the world as Adam had. The last people gathered in rebellion, at the end of the Day of the Lord who come up against the authority of Jesus as King, they will all be consumed by fire as a group. That last generation under a hundred years old will also be the largest generation of people born, probably in the tens of billions. Will all of them be decieved by Satan? Who knows? Satan will certainly not try to decieve those who have already lived for hundreds of years. He will target those at the far reaches of the earth. They will have to travel to Jerusalem, as John pointed out. And they will come from every direction to meet at Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

Your view of what 666 means contradicts John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Yet God sent the Flood of Noah's day, which in your opinion is a direct contradiction to John 3:16. People die and go to sheol almost every second of the day, which in your opinion is a direct contradiction to John 3:16.

Just because God is willing to save everyone, does not mean everyone will be saved. Most will still be tossed into the LOF according to Revelation 20:15

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So yes, those with the mark 666 are those removed from the Lamb's book of life.

If you claim they were never found written in the Lamb's book of life, you directly contradict John 3:16. Because God willingly placed them all in the Lamb's book of life before creation.

But God is not weak nor going against His will by removing them. The act of the Cross was God's part. Rejection of God is Adam's part. Adam and mankind is who the number belongs to.

 

[Marty fox]

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Yet God sent the Flood of Noah's day, which in your opinion is a direct contradiction to John 3:16. People die and go to sheol almost every second of the day, which in your opinion is a direct contradiction to John 3:16.

Just because God is willing to save everyone, does not mean everyone will be saved. Most will still be tossed into the LOF according to Revelation 20:15

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So yes, those with the mark 666 are those removed from the Lamb's book of life.

If you claim they were never found written in the Lamb's book of life, you directly contradict John 3:16. Because God willingly placed them all in the Lamb's book of life before creation.

But God is not weak nor going against His will by removing them. The act of the Cross was God's part. Rejection of God is Adam's part. Adam and mankind is who the number belongs to.

You misunderstood what I meant I wasn’t claiming that they won’t go to heaven I was claiming that they have the chance to repent before death. In your view they don’t but Joh 3:16 proves that they do.

 

[Timtofly]

You misunderstood what I meant I wasn’t claiming that they won’t go to heaven I was claiming that they have the chance to repent before death. In your view they don’t but Joh 3:16 proves that they do.

They have the chance right now. They have the chance to cut off their heads. But once they make the outright decision to reject God, God does remove them from the Lamb's book of life and puts the mark on them as being removed from the Lamb's book of life.

No one has been removed from the Lamb's book of life at this moment. Even those in sheol, the rest of the dead, are still in the Lamb's book of life. It has been sealed shut so not even God allowed Himself to remove names. Those currently in sheol will be removed at the GWT judgment when the dead stand before God from sheol. No one can be removed until the 7th Seal is opened.

They will still have the opportunity to accept eternal life and the first resurrection. At the GWT judgment some souls will still have an opportunity. Of course they have the opportunity. Did you not see that they can see God on the GWT at the 6th Seal? 2 Peter 3 claims the heavens dissolved. John shows that event happens at the 6th Seal.

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

This is their chance to face God and accept Salvation. No one is forced into the Kingdom against their will. Being saved is not just about going to heaven. It is also about not going to the LOF, the 2nd death.

 

[Earburner]

Nothing remotely impossible about it.

1 Cor. 15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[ewq1938]

1 Cor. 15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The word inherit does not mean to "enter". Entering means you are a guest. Inheriting means you own it. If I enter a Walmart, do I inherit it because I entered? No.

That is one of the most misused and misapplied verses in the entire bible.

 

[Earburner]

The word inherit does not mean to "enter". Entering means you are a guest. Inheriting means you own it. If I enter a Walmart, do I inherit it because I entered? No.

That is one of the most misused and misapplied verses in the entire bible.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. All we, who are Born again of God's Holy Spirit, have entered into the KoG, and are now "partakers of the divine nature", while we are still here, dragging around in this flesh and blood body of death.
All of such, are still waiting, (whether dead or alive), to be glorified (changed) into the likeness of His immortality, in the Day of His Glorious appearance from Heaven.

Eternal Life and Immortality IS WHAT we shall inherit. Nothing more, and nothing less.

KJV 2 Thes. 1
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
[10] WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in THAT day.
Luke 17
[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the SAME DAY [24 hours] that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day WHEN the Son of man is revealed [from Heaven].

The Lord's return from Heaven, will be a SIMULTANEOUS event of destruction and redemption.

2 Peter 3
[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
[12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, WHEREIN* dwelleth [God's] righteousness.

*Here is a clue: 2 Cor. 4
[7] But we have this treasure [of Himself] in earthen vessels [our mortal bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

WHERE does God's Righteousness DWELL.....right NOW?
In planet earth, or in His saints of earthen vessels?
Ans. Within us, who are born again, who are still waiting to be glorified, after Christ's immortal likeness!!

 

[Earburner]

Now, back to the topic of this thread by the op.
I will reintroduce my thoughts on the matter from my post #20:

"Actually, the two witnesses were John the Baptist and Jesus. In all the world, they were the only ones who were born of the Holy Spirit, HAVING the Holy Spirit at birth.

John is a WITNESS to who Jesus Is, and Jesus is a WITNESS TO WHO God is."