WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS...WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

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dev553344

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People say that we are not saved by works.
That there is nothing that we do on our own that can save us.
People say this all the time...but is it true...or does the statement mean something that is misunderstood. Lets put in motion.

Billy is not a Christian. He is sitting on his couch watching a football game. Happy go luck and he is not thinking about Christianity and the only thing he is doing is eating chips and drinking tea.

So the question is, how does Billy get saved without works?...He is not thinking anything in particular and not doing anything. So how does it happen?
We are in fact saved by works, the works of The Father, Jesus the Christ and the Holy Spirit. This is how we get resurrected and cleansed of our sins. Our works go towards our salvation judgment. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking works are not necessary for a good judgment outcome.
 

Grailhunter

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We are in fact saved by works, the works of The Father, Jesus the Christ and the Holy Spirit. This is how we get resurrected and cleansed of our sins. Our works go towards our salvation judgment. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking works are not necessary for a good judgment outcome.

I am still going to assume you know that works, are not what saves you...But as James was talking about, what is faith without works?
 
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dev553344

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I am still going to assume you know that works, are not what saves you...But as James was talking about, what is faith without works?

I've noticed some people stick to one or the other and some see contradictions in the following scripture. But we must embrace both scriptures and be in harmony with all scripture:

Ephesians 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

It is clear from the above that without works it's death. And probably second death or hell perhaps. Some will do good works and still be cast out. It's clear that good works done for the right reason puts us in the spirit of life which is God's spirit. And that is life. So if we want to live we'll do good works in the right spirit of doing them, out of charity and love for people.

The judgment is clear though:

Revelation 20:12

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

And to understand judgment we must embrace the following scriptures which give contrast to works done in the right and wrong attitude.

This is a warning to sinners even ones that do good works:

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

And this, if you study the surrounding scriptures, is a warning to those that do not good works in the spirit of charity and love to people:

Matthew 25:41
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
 

Grailhunter

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I've noticed some people stick to one or the other and some see contradictions in the following scripture. But we must embrace both scriptures and be in harmony with all scripture:

Works
Some of it depends on how deep you look into it.
Some feel that James and Paul are at odds with works...Kind of true, but not entirely.
James is a Jewish-Christian...He is still doing things that are Jewish. (Mosaic Law and Saturday Sabbath) Paul will say that we are not of the Law or under the law. You will never read James doing that. For a time he was the leader of the Apostles and being a Jewish-Christian he believed in observing the Mosaic Law. That is one of the reasons that Peter and Paul had to meet with him to stop the requirement for the Gentiles to observe the Law in order to be Christians.

But James' statement about works and faith, has nothing to do with the Law, and it is better to translate the word works there to Good Deeds...it is the same Greek word and Good Deeds make more sense. James is explaining that if you are Christian that we should do good things and help people like Christ did. It makes sense, if you have faith, you should be doing good things. This not a challenge to the truth that the power of salvation comes from Christ. We have to decide to take advantage of that and that can be called works, but it is not the power of works that save us.

Paul is a Jew also, but he is in charge of the Gentile-Christian ministry. He makes it clear that Christians are not of the Law and should not observe the Law...the Law being the 613 Mosaic Laws. When Paul says works of the Law, he is referring to observing the Law and abiding by it. Ultimately Paul gets so upset about Christians trying to mix Christianity with Judaism that he calls down those in Galatia and then put a curse on this activity ... Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.

So the works that Paul is talking about is the works of the Mosaic Law.

No one in the New Testament speaks against Christian works...ie Good Deeds. And it is made clear that Good Deed of various type do have rewards...But no one indicates that works or Good Deeds save us.

At one point Paul has to deal with a group of Jews called Judaizes that harass his ministry saying that the Gentile Converts have to be circumcised and observe the Mosaic Law. Other than that there is no dispute over works and faith.

It is not until the Catholic Church comes along and believes it has authority over several aspects of Salvation that the dispute over faith and works arise. The Catholic Church has mandatory rituals and sacraments and they believe that violating their rulings and Papal Bulls can prevent you from going to heaven.

This here is what drives the statement...We are not saved by works but by faith....So this is one of the things that drive Martin Luther to begin the reform.
 
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Yan

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We were given a free of charge salvation from God because of mercy & grace, just look how all prophets and apostles being treatened like a criminal and such a sacrified animal to the Roman gladiator, how about apostle Paul ?
Did Paul reach heaven or not, as he told that he was also tormented by devil (2 Corinthians 12:7-9) and he was told that he chose to be cursed and separated from Christ (Romans 9:1-5). Does anybody can validate apostle Paul whether he reach heaven or hell ?
If the salvation only measured on the peaceful condition that forced us to not commit any sin then its ok, but how about those people who get defiled by the enemy that don't like to see us doing the right thing to do for justice sometimes the enemy won't let us to get survived and reach heaven.
For instance, if those LSD victims had been altered on all of their mind by the enemy even they don't commit any evil things or sinful behaviour, are you still sure about their salvation if your faith only relied on 100% strict to the word of the law ?
So, it was all only a grace from God not by our works.
 

dev553344

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Works
Some of it depends on how deep you look into it.
Some feel that James and Paul are at odds with works...Kind of true, but not entirely.
James is a Jewish-Christian...He is still doing things that are Jewish. (Mosaic Law and Saturday Sabbath) Paul will say that we are not of the Law or under the law. You will never read James doing that. For a time he was the leader of the Apostles and being a Jewish-Christian he believed in observing the Mosaic Law. That is one of the reasons that Peter and Paul had to meet with him to stop the requirement for the Gentiles to observe the Law in order to be Christians.

But James' statement about works and faith, has nothing to do with the Law, and it is better to translate the word works there to Good Deeds...it is the same Greek word and Good Deeds make more sense. James is explaining that if you are Christian that we should do good things and help people like Christ did. It makes sense, if you have faith, you should be doing good things. This not a challenge to the truth that the power of salvation comes from Christ. We have to decide to take advantage of that and that can be called works, but it is not the power of works that save us.

Paul is a Jew also, but he is in charge of the Gentile-Christian ministry. He makes it clear that Christians are not of the Law and should not observe the Law...the Law being the 613 Mosaic Laws. When Paul says works of the Law, he is referring to observing the Law and abiding by it. Ultimately Paul gets so upset about Christians trying to mix Christianity with Judaism that he calls down those in Galatia and then put a curse on this activity ... Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.

So the works that Paul is talking about is the works of the Mosaic Law.

No one in the New Testament speaks against Christian works...ie Good Deeds. And it is made clear that Good Deed of various type do have rewards...But no one indicates that works or Good Deeds save us.

I disagree with that somewhat, ten commandments holds true, and we find many passages in the NT indicating which laws we must still abide by, although murder isn't listed here it is in the OT which we must abide by:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Not only do those sinners not get into the Kingdom of heaven, but without doing the following works, Jesus himself says we'll be cast into the lake of fire. I know red letter Christians that prefer Jesus over other teachings, and I would have to agree as the Bible explicitly claims we should listen to Jesus over apostles:

Matthew 25:44-46
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, linasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
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Truther

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People say that we are not saved by works.
That there is nothing that we do on our own that can save us.
People say this all the time...but is it true...or does the statement mean something that is misunderstood. Lets put in motion.

Billy is not a Christian. He is sitting on his couch watching a football game. Happy go luck and he is not thinking about Christianity and the only thing he is doing is eating chips and drinking tea.

So the question is, how does Billy get saved without works?...He is not thinking anything in particular and not doing anything. So how does it happen?
The Bible is referring to works of the O.T. Law per salvation as we are not saved by.

We are saved by obeying Acts 2:38 now.
 

Grailhunter

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I disagree with that somewhat, ten commandments holds true, and we find many passages in the NT indicating which laws we must still abide by, although murder isn't listed here it is in the OT which we must abide by:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Not only do those sinners not get into the Kingdom of heaven, but without doing the following works, Jesus himself says we'll be cast into the lake of fire. I know red letter Christians that prefer Jesus over other teachings, and I would have to agree as the Bible explicitly claims we should listen to Jesus over apostles:

Matthew 25:44-46
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, linasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I disagree with that somewhat, ten commandments holds true, and we find many passages in the NT indicating which laws we must still abide by, although murder isn't listed here it is in the OT which we must abide by:

We all know that some of the Ten Commandments are quoted in the NT. But the phrase Ten Commandments does not occur in the NT. And Paul states we are not under the Law about ten ways to Sunday, calling the Law a ministry of death. From there it gets very complicated by confusion and misunderstanding.

The Laws given at Mt. Sinai were not called the Ten Commandments by God and there were 14 not 10. The Laws that were called the Ten Commandments by God occurs in Exodus 34:10-28 Either way Paul says if you look to the Law as a righteous guide you are severed from Christ and have fallen from Grace....
 

dev553344

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Either way Paul says if you look to the Law as a righteous guide you are severed from Christ and have fallen from Grace....

Can you quote scripture please, I have not read that righteousness would sever us from Christ or that righteous people have fallen from grace.
 

Grailhunter

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Can you quote scripture please, I have not read that righteousness would sever us from Christ or that righteous people have fallen from grace.

I did not say that righteousness will sever us from Christ and fallen from grace...I said looking to the law for righteousness would do that.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Right, faith is a gift and that seed that is planted in fertile soil, grows to produce fruit - fruit of the spirit - which is of God, who produces good fruit through us. That's all James was trying to differentiate between, those who are truly fruitful ( in Christ) and those whose seed was just scattered on shallow soil and did not grow to produce fruit.
These withered and died when trials came. We must nurture our faith (water the seed) with the Word.

It is clear from the above that without works it's death.
Did the criminal next to Jesus who was promised Paradise demonstrate works? All he did was believe and confess that he was a sinner and ask for Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom. Jesus said, TODAY you will be in Paradise!
And the dead were judged according to their works,
Books were opened. The first book was the Book of the Dead (unbelievers) and they were judged according to their works.
We are pardoned from judgement. We passed from death to life. The only judgment will will receive is for our good deeds in which rewards will be given. Billy Graham will ha e more than most, Mother Teresa too. I'll be content with just getting through the pearly gates.
*A comment about rewards.
Where it says, store up for yourselves treasure in heaven ... things that are eternal, I believe these are loving relationships. Some will have more than others when they get there. And some will be given more responsibility because they were more obedient and fruitful. But they are positive judgments - similar rewards for participating in a race - but in this case everyone wins who are in the Book of Life.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
This was a message to the Jews who were given the knowledge of God, like the Pharisees, but since the Messiah, through their history to the present, believed in and followed the OT scriptures only but rejected Jesus and rejected Christians and the NT. Those, even Rabbis with their knowledge, turned their backs on Christians, did not help them. To those he will say "Away from Me, I never knew you." Of course He knows all, what that phrase, "I never knew you" means is, I never had a relationship with you.
Scholars point out that Matthew was written for Jews and Christian Jews, so was Hebrews. Not that those books aren't applicable to all, just certain verses were directed towards the Jews. Read the whole chapter/ context.

One last thing, there might be another book opened, the Book of hero's, that get a free pass ...
A strange individual will appear at the gates. They open will open up this book and ask what his name is to see if it is in there. This strange person speaks and says ...

I AM GROOT!

The angel smiles and let's him in!
 
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Grailhunter

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Did the criminal next to Jesus who was promised Paradise demonstrate works? All he did was believe and confess that he was a sinner and ask for Jesus to remember him when He came into His Kingdom. Jesus said, TODAY you will be in Paradise!

I understand that there are differing beliefs regarding this...I am multi-denominational so I tolerate.
But consider this...With Christ alive on the cross, the world is truly in a transitional state. Salvation in its fullest is not going to occur until His body dies. So Acts 2:38 is not applicable.

And Christ did not tell the thief that he would be with Him in heaven? Be with Him in Paradise. Why? Christ was not going to heaven after the cross...at least the Bible is not suggesting that. Where did He go....well some believe He went to Sheol to preach the Gospel to the Jews and others there.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I know that this might be considered a work but...we need to start from the beginning...
How does Billy first consider Christianity?
If he is not thinking about it, how does that change?
1st he would need God to draw him. By convicting him of sin righteousness and judgment. It is not something that happens in 1 second or even a small time. So I am not sure you question can really be answered as asked.
 

Behold

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You can sit on your couch and believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures ... and then die and go to heaven.
A gift is given to you and all you have to do is receive it. A gift is not a gift if you have to work for it.

As you stated correctly. The reason a person goes to heaven, is because what Jesus has accomplished to get you into heaven, has been applied to you, by God.

All other attempts to go to heaven, all other reasons, theologies, and self righteousness, need not apply for entrance.

"in CHRIST ALONE" is why you go to heaven.
Thats it.
 
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Grailhunter

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1st he would need God to draw him. By convicting him of sin righteousness and judgment. It is not something that happens in 1 second or even a small time. So I am not sure you question can really be answered as asked.

Of course all that....but be careful of saying God would convict someone of sin, some people would say that God is horrible for that. LOL
 

Grailhunter

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As you stated correctly. The reason a person goes to heaven, is because what Jesus has accomplished to get you into heaven, has been applied to you, by God.

All other attempts to go to heaven, all other reasons, theologies, and self righteousness, need not apply for entrance.

"in CHRIST ALONE" is why you go to heaven.
Thats it.

LOL "SELF RIGHTEOUS" is an alarm word for the OSAS crowd....so I have to add that being good is a reason for going to heaven and being an evildoer is a reason for going to hell....Heaven will not be full of evildoers.

Christ alone is why we go to heaven.
Going to hell is what evildoers do alone.
 

Behold

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Christ alone is why we go to heaven.
Going to hell is what evildoers do alone.


Hell isn't meant for the evil, as if it was, we'd all go there, as we are all unrighteous, till made righteous = by God's Blood.

Hell is just a final eternal destination for the Devil , his Angels, and his Children.
All the unbelievers, the non-born again......have as their father, the Devil.

God is the Father of the Born again, and His children end up with Him.
The devil's children, the unbelievers, end up with their father.