WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS...WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
- Thread starter Grailhunter
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Too deep?
Im writing too deeply.
That happens a lot, as i write spiritually quite a bit, vs, just writing milk.
Milk vs Meat.
The milk of the word vs the meat of the word.
Do, you understand what i just said?
Listen, there is one Way to Heaven, and as you stated, Jesus is the only Way. John 14:6
Our filthy Works are not required or accepted by God.
God only accepts to save us, what He provided, and that is His Own BLOOD.
Legalist and heretics teach otherwise.
See: wrangler, justbyfaith, and ferris bueller for an update on the "other Gospel", they teach everytime they are here.
Here is what God teaches......."without the shedding of God's BLood, there is no SALVATiON" "remission of sin"
God's blood is what God requires to accept us, and He requires nothing LESS, and all our SELF EFFORT is so much less.
Most heretics can't understand this, so, be not one of those, Grailhunter
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
God would be horrible if he did not do this.. In my view anyway.
Do you really have that much an issue with Good Deeds....I mean really...filthy Works! I can point you to a lot of scriptures but the parable or story of the Sheep and the Goats is a good start.
Are you calling God a legalist? Morality and condemnation of sin seems to be a real issue with this new denomination.
If you do not think that the Bible discusses the condemnation of sin, the punishment of sin, and the destination of evildoers I got a bunch of scriptures for you.
Matthew 7:21-23 “21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?"
Just a coupe, if you want a long list I will be happy to give it to you. The question is...would you even be interested?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
While I agree
When we all stand in front of God on judgment day. WIth our life before us. We would all by definition be called evil doers. For we all have sinned and fall short.
That's why we need Christ
No; what puts the spirit of life in us is faith in Jesus Christ; and as the result of that faith, we do works for the right reason.
Agree...
In Romans 7:6 it teaches us that we are no longer bound to the letter of the law but are obedient to the spirit of it.
That being said, the law is written on the hearts and minds of New Covenant believers (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16, Romans 8:7, Romans 8:4, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14; Romans 5:5).
Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and we are told in scripture not to sin (1 Corinthians 13:34, Ephesians 4:26, 1 John 3:6).
And of course, while we are not justified "by" the works of the law (Galatians 2:16); it is equally true that the doers of the law shall be justified (Romans 2:13).
We do not save ourselves by abiding by the law; but if we have been genuinely saved, the fruit of that is the fruit of the Spirit against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).
Exo 34:28, And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Deu 4:13, And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Deu 10:4, And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
I believe that this is speaking of the ten commandments that the Lord gives us in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5. Everything before verse 22 in Deuteronomy 5. Read that verse, Deuteronomy 5:22.
This statement is unclear in its current form and appears to be saying something unkosher. So I want to give you the opportunity to reiterate the sentence with slightly different words.
And, of course, this is because of your (continued) faith in Jesus and what He did for you on the Cross.
If you were to cease to have faith, you would lose salvation.
But, fortunately, those who have a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) have been sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) and therefore have an everlasting faith.
Romans 3:10-18 is qualified by Romans 3:9 and Romans 3:19.
In Romans 3:9, we find that Romans 3:10-18 is speaking of Jew and Gentile. There is another category spoken of in 1 Corinthians 10:32...the church of God.
In Romans 3:19, we find that Romans 3:10-18 is speaking of those who are under the law (those not in the church; those who have not placed their faith in Jesus for salvation). It is what the law says to those who are under it. However, born again Christians are not under the law (Romans 6:14); and therefore Romans 3:10-18 does not apply to them.
And of course, this is coming from someone who teaches the faithful and true gospel that Christians don't have indwelling sin. NOT! it is not faithful and true...the fact that he believes and teaches this means that he is deceiving himself and the truth is not in him (1 John 1:8)....and if he convinces anyone of this doctrine, he would also be deceiving them.
Of course I am speaking of genuine faith in Jesus; a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10).
When you place your faith in Jesus, He gives you the Spirit (Galatians 3:14); and as the result of that you can bear the fruit of the Spirit; against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22-23).
It is very likely true that you haven't crossed over into the proper experience.
Though you may have much, I would venture to say that it is not exhaustive.
I have found that the fruits of the Holy Spirit come thru service to the Lord, doing good works. That has been my experience.
WE ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS...WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
OP ^
Works, will NOT get you Saved.
Works, will NOT keep you Saved.
Works, By a Converted person,
That Glorify God, WILL get you rewards.
Glorifying God, IS a Works that people DO between people, and accredit God, for ones ability to help, aid, assist, teach, give, charity, etc.
Those "WORKS" are called: stored up Treasures in Heaven.
Matt 6:20
The Reward is delivered unto you when the Lord Returns.
Rev 22:12
Get to getting, lend a hand, Praise God to he whom you aid.
God Bless,
Taken
OP ^
Works, will NOT get you Saved.
Works, will NOT keep you Saved.
Works, By a Converted person,
That Glorify God, WILL get you rewards.
Glorifying God, IS a Works that people DO between people, and accredit God, for ones ability to help, aid, assist, teach, give, charity, etc.
Those "WORKS" are called: stored up Treasures in Heaven.
Matt 6:20
The Reward is delivered unto you when the Lord Returns.
Rev 22:12
Get to getting, lend a hand, Praise God to he whom you aid.
God Bless,
Taken
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Kosher? What, it wasn't blessed by a Rabbi? Lol! No, it wasn't.
The Book of Matthew has a theme, it is a portrait of Christ, as the Messiah, the King of Kings, a descendant of David. It was written to the Jewish Christians and unbelieving Jews who had a conflict. Those unbelieving Jews, who practiced Law and the Prophets, who remain stubborn, will at their death meet their Messiah and they will get rejected.
The qualification of who this passage (Matthew 7) was written to, lies not just that it is written to the Jews, but also in their response to the Lord: " Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name and done many wonders in Your name?" Matthew 7:22
Those aren't gentile unbelievers. They never did those things nor claimed to do them, only the Jews did.
Yeap, Christ's initial ministry was directed at the Jews. And He knew that He dare not reveal Himself initially as the Son of God...much less a God, because that would be sacrilegious to the Jews and the Jews were expecting a human warlord king for a Messiah. They were not concerned with a Savior that would save them from the devil or hell...For the most part most did not believe in either one. They saw the Messiah...Savior as a man that would save them from their oppressors, put them in power and His kingdom would last forever. Which opens up another topic...
So since you say that they will meet their Messiah and they will be rejected. I have an open ended question.
Do you think that the Jews of the OT and NT went to Hell?
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
No, No, No! Those OT Hebrews who lived by faith, looked forward to their Messiah. From Abraham, the father of faith and onward, they were justified by faith. Jesus blood sacrifice and resurrection was imputed to them. However, those who rejected Him after He showed up, were not saved. Jesus condemned the Pharisees on the spot - "Who will save you from the Gehenna?"
Honestly, I don't think anyone went to Hell ( the Lake of Fire) because that is more of an event after the Millennial Kingdom. Unsaved souls go to Hades, which is like a dark dungeon underneath the crust of the earth and there they await their final destruction. Hades and Death will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed.
Back to those Jews after 32 AD. Those Jews who lived religious lives under the Law, will be judged by the Law. They are without Christ and therefore blind like everyone else on the planet who is born blind. They will be resurrected and come to Christ and plead, Lord, Lord, haven't we done this and that ... when did we not feed you ... bla? bla, bla.? JESUS WILL SAY, "AWAY FROM ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU."
Some are throughout the ages have come out of Judaism and converted to Christ. During the GT (according to Rom. 11), many Jews will receive Jesus, their veils will be lifted (1/3 remnant, about 5 million). It would appear that the Jews have the advantage, they the knowledge of God, just don't know who their Messiah really is - they are still waiting for someone else. How foolish they will feel when every eye sees Him. They will mourn, what guilt and shame. The 144k will be male Jewish virgins chosen. I would imagine an equal amount of virgin females will be saved as well. Why do I say this?
Christians will be resurrected into eternal bodies - we will not procreate
It is obvious thay scripture speaks of babies in the Millennial Kingdom. So who will procreate? The Jews who have been protected during the GT. This is conjecture on my part. It just makes sense to me. Once we get past the 7th Trumpet (the last trumpet), no one on earth repents, those with the mark of the Beast curae God. This view doesn't really fit in with the "Left Behind" Series. I'm not absolutely sure if non will be saved after the last trumpet. The Church is gone and the Restrainer.
I did not say that they did not look forward to their Messiah...where did that come from? But the Messiah they were looking for was a human warlord king...that is an historical fact and is is still true today...The Jews still do not believe in a God Messiah, a devil, or Hell.
Abraham was the only on justified by faith. No salvation in the OT. If there was, there would have been no reason for the Son of God to go through the Passion.
You need to look up what Hades is and why the Christians used a Greek word for a Greek God in their writings.
Ya, that is why I asked you. I understand it is a belief, and that is ok. Just not mine.
I entertain several renditions of interpretations of Revelation...that is as good as any.
Yes, these fruits most definitely manifest themselves when we are serving the Lord; however, they come in the first place because we have placed our faith in Jesus Christ.
We receive the Holy Spirit through faith (Galatians 3:14) and the fruits of the Spirit result out of having the Spirit.
You said this:
You appear to be saying that the Messiah rejected Jesus and rejected Christians and the New Testament.
That doesn't appear to me to be a "kosher" statement. And no, by that I do not mean "blessed by a Rabbi" I mean legitimate.
I think also that there will be Gentile believers who will say to Jesus on that day, "Didn't we cast out demons in your name?", etc.
David and the prophets were justified by faith (Matthew 5:10-12, Psalms 21:4, Psalms 86:13, for example).
JBF I am all about new discoveries, but as far as justification and Old Covenant people going to heaven you will need better scriptures. The more the better. Even the Jews do not believe Old Testament Jews went to heaven unless God took them. Enoch and Elijah
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Okay G. I haven't read through all 130+posts, but read enough I think to get the gist of what you are asking.
Your hypothesis regarding Billy is interesting. How is he saved? Through coming to the knowledge of the gospel, which comes by revelation. And in normal circumstances God will use someone to reveal truth and light; a friend, relation, neighbor, evangelist. In abnormal circumstances, such as in Muslim countries, God is using dreams and visions.
The relationship is initiated by God. It is maintained by God. All we are asked to do is believe. To enhance or faith... To strengthen our belief... We must do stuff. Study the scriptures. Pray. Share the gospel. Obey God's Commandments. None of these doing things affects our salvation directly. But they most surely can affect our faith. Without doing that stuff, out faith is weakened, and we are saved by faith. We are to live by faith. We are justified by faith. And not our works. Does a weak faith, one affected through neglect of prayer and scriptures, weaken to get point of becoming unbelief,? If so, then out salvation is affected. We can't be saved without faith.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
They do believe that Lucifer became Satan - it is in their scriptures. They accused Jesus of performing miracles by the power of Satan.
They had a concept of Hell from the Gehenna, a perpetual burning dump for diseased and dead animals - wjere the worm does not die. You should do a study on the history of Gehenna. The Canaanites used to sacrifice babies on a jot molten altars to Molech. They understanding of he afterlife was blurry. Jesus cleared that up.
All Abraham's descendants who lived by faith were justified. They had Jesus blood sacrifice IMPUTED to them. Study!
I thoroughly examine the nature of Hell in two chapters of a book I wrote called, "Hell ... If I Know". Sheol/Hades is of course examined as well. It does not prove I am right, it just informs you that I have looked it up.
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Understand what you are saying and understand that beliefs differ on the processes of salvation and what some of these process are and what they do in relation to our salvation.
And I have explained most of this in detail. The big picture is that if Christianity is about a relationship with God, and a person does nothing, is that a relationship? You might think that this is apple and oranges, but I contend that it is not.
Why do you call me Lord Lord, if you do not do what I say....then Acts 2:38...does any of that affect our salvation and or our relationship with God?
Belief as the sole requirement for salvation....There are those that believe that...a thought that Christ is real. And continue on with your life as if nothing else happened? Nothing we do matters in regard to our salvation. Interesting thought and is totally embraced by the OSAS crowd.
So what is repentance...if not a change in our life? A do? A work?
So what happens if we do not get baptized? And is it a do? A work?
So what happens if we do not participate in Communion? Is it a do? A work? I find this set of scriptures particularly interesting.
Although some try to explain them away, but Christ felt this was so important that He risked shutting down His ministry. He is talking to Jews and his own Apostles interrupted the conversation reacting to it strongly and His disciples walked away and no longer walked with Him
In this conversation Christ indicates if you do not perform this ritual that He does not abide in you and you in Him. He says there will be no life in you...this is contingent on if He will raise you on the last day. Now if you are saved and He does raise you, what is that like? So then they go on to perform this ritual at the Last Supper. Now this not an analogy because Christ says, This is my blood and this is my body. And they drink from the cup and eat the bread. I don't think Christ would have risked shutting down His ministry over something that was not critically important.
So if we do nothing but think...can we be saved?
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