you said disciples are not made by baptism matt 28:19-20 and Jn 4:1 say they are
There is a massive post with lots of verses quoted attached to the above quote - as if the quoting of a verse (any verse) makes a person's own understanding of God correct. Are they?
I went over the above quoted verse before and obviously was ignored, because there were not comments about it, but just a reposting of the massive post. Anyway, let's take a look again to see if the above verses actually do support the thinking.
Mat 28:19-20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
A disciple is a pupil or student. If a student comes to learn from the teacher, then they are a disciple!! So Jesus had disciples when He was in the flesh, but they were not the finished thing but were the students. They didn't need to be "baptized" to be a disciple! That is opposed to logical reasoning and opposed to the thinking in the thread attached to the quote above!
So disciples are not made by baptism, they are made by coming and listening to the Teacher - and in the case of Christian our Teacher is still Jesus Christ!!
So in the verse above (Mat 28:19) we read "God make disciples of all the nations..." -- That means that we are to go and get them to listen to our Teacher Jesus Christ!!!
As far as this thread about being "Born Again" that is consistent with being "Born Aain" because Jesus explained that person who is "Born Again" hears the sound of the wind - which we know is the Holy Spirit who speaks but not own initiative but as He hears He speaks - therefore the Holy Spirit hears the words of the Teacher (Jesus Christ the Word of God) and then speaks His words to our spirit.
Jn 16:13:14 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. “He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose
it to you.
So a disciple must hear the Holy Spirit with his spirit, but that does not yet they are yet even baptized (immersed) in the Holy Spirit, just as a new believer can be a new believer without having yet chosen to be baptized in water. There is also a decision to be more dedicated to God that we should make but few instantly make that decision. People are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, and that faith comes from hearing Him.
Romans 10:17 So faith
comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Now if we do hear Him, He is going to be asking us to make a greater decision and dedication to Him. Indeed, as those who have made that decision we promote it. Thus we also read in Mat 28:19 ..."baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;
Thus the discipleship comes before the baptizing. and the teaching, and the doing as commanded.
So a new believer is saved (has eternal life) as soon as he or she becomes a disciple which means hearing from our Lord Jesus Christ. There is then more to follow, like baptism (Water, Spirit, and Fire), and getting teachings, and doing as commanded - yet those are things that follow and if anyone truly knows the Lord Jesus Christ they certainly know the teaching and doing as commanded just keeps on going on!! That is why we call Him Lord and Teacher.
This is all very simple understanding, so who doesn't understand this? Have we not heard from Him? Have we not even taken the time to study the verses we post?
Oh - also another verse was just thrown out in the quote:
Jn 4:1 Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
What does that have to do with being born again? It wasn't mentioned by Jesus when He discussed being born again!! So there is absolutely no connection! Let's take a quick look at what Jesus explain to Nicodemus - you will note that baptism is not a part of it!!! Or maybe you won't and just prefer to lean on your own understanding? Now you might note that baptism came in chapter 4 which is after chapter 3. So again being born again comes first then in the next chapter of your life comes baptism! There might be a little understanding in noticing that!
Jn 3: 1-12 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God
as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. “Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Check it out - baptism is not mentioned anywhere above!! It about being born and that of the Spirit - not about being baptized in water, Spirit, or fire! If you are born of the Spirit you now have ears( spiritual ears) to hear. The fact that the Pharisee Nicodemus did not understand this meant that he was not 'born again". I have trouble telling many (even Christians) about hearing the Lord. I can testify about Him and the things He tells me, but many just don't seem to be able to accept my testimony. Again, the first words a heard from Him were "Read Your Bible", so I did. But even doing that did not instantly mean I was that dedicated to Him or was 'immersed' in the Holy Spirit. I just started reading the Bible because I was told to. It took nine months to finish it, and more and more things kept happening, and I learned to hear Him better and better. I then got to know Him and He kept teaching me. He then started asking me to do things for Him, like quit my job and open up a Christian bookstore for Him, and many many other things. I really started getting into Him and immersing myself in Him. I got baptized in water at the church I decided to go to first. It was at least 3 months from those first words before I even went to church, and another 8 months before I got baptized in water. That church did do what the Lord asked in Mat 28: 19-20 but it is a process and my salvation came when my believe came, and that when I heard those first words from Him via the Holy Spirit saying "Read Your Bible". I was born again then, and heard the sound of the wind then! The baptism was in the next chapter of my life!
How do we have such a poor understanding of this? We are not like Nicodemus the Pharisee are we? We actually do hear from Him, right? Then we must testify about Him, right? But who accepts our testimony?