What about the Death to Self message ?

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Soverign Grace

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We have believed it for years, tried living it for years…but hubby and I were talking and at 77 & 82 we find we are no more “dead” than were were in the 60’s 70’s. o_O

I’ve just read a book which really mad me think!!
…I know our old self got 'put on the altar' but it seems that most of us keep crawling on and off!! :eek:

Do you know anyone who has no chinks, hooks , or buttons to get pushed that is truly ‘dead’?
I don’t !!

It seems we have failed to really grasp the full message that we already did die IN CHRIST. Rom 6.6
So why the constant effort when We are already dead!! Why do we still keep struggling to kill which God says is DEAD?
It was final, finished, done Rom 6 10-11.

This must be linked to the knowledge that 'our mind must be renewed' about all this if we are going to life in victory! .."be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
That we believe His word and what He says about us.

We remember that God asked Adam in the Garden..” Who told you that you were naked?” ( one of the many favourites of @bbyrd009 :) )

And we know who said to Jesus- “ IF thou be the son of God…

It is the same voice which constantly tells to us that we do not measure up!! (and often he uses the voices of some in our life or on this very site to tell us that!! :D He will use any will object he can to so his destructive work)

If we think about what is called 'the death to self message'…really it is all about US and Self!!! ( " How am I doing...always measuring the me." )
“ Am I being good and spiritual by being dead enough.?”


Maybe it is time that we just stopped Trying and started bathing in His Presence..and seeng our God who is indeed awesome in wonder ..and as @Not me 's lovely post said the other day… "Let Us Draw Near…"in FULL assurance of faith.."

Time we believed what The Word has told us… For Ye are dead, and our new life is hid with Christ in God “

I read a sermon one time that the most important task is the renewing of our minds. I looked for it awhile ago but it got lost in the "graveyard" of old sermons I had.
 

Hidden In Him

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And yet Jesus was standing outside the door of every heart. A church in name is still a church outwardly, but God knows hearts. And nothing is mentioned about the candlestick, which means its was already gone.

If their candlestick was already gone, He would have been done speaking with them, yes?
 

marks

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Hey, marks! Well, see, I was quoting from Revelation 3:14-22. The church at Laodicea had these same promises as believers, but as Ephesians 1:3 states, these blessings and promises belong to believers so long as they abide in Christ, for all the promises of God are yea and amen in Him, and unfortunately the Laodicean church (which parallels the modern church in prophecy) was clearly not abiding in Him. The Lord was instead outside the church knocking, trying to get back in (Revelation 3:20).
Hi Hidden In Him,

I figured that's where you were referencing.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

You mentioned these have the same promises as believers. Does that then mean that you see the Laodiceans being addressed as unbelievers?

I would agree that the promises are universal:

Jesus gives riches and honor and sight to those who come to Him for it. It's interesting that He says, Buy from me, as if property transfers. Rather than, if you remain in Me. Those seem to be contrary, as the latter implies lack of ownership, while Buy from Me implies ownership.

but as Ephesians 1:3 states, these blessings and promises belong to believers so long as they abide in Christ,

I want to look and see if this is what that passage states, I don't remember that being a part. Be right back . . .

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Can you show me where this passage makes all the blessings we receive as our only as we "abide in Christ"? Could you define for me what "Abide in Christ" means? I very much hope you will pursue this with me.

Election, predestination, adoption, these are ours In Christ. If we are to say that we can lose our election, predestination, and adoption for not abiding in Christ, I think we need to be clear about what that means.

the Laodicean church (which parallels the modern church in prophecy) was clearly not abiding in Him.

I would agree they were not. They were not in Christ, Christ was not in them, they were not saved, not believers.

The Lord was instead outside the church knocking, trying to get back in (Revelation 3:20).
Back into the church, that is, is that right?

More to follow . . .

Much love!
 
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marks

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Isn't it rather the opposite? That the real reason is we forget that we're rich, and we think we're poor, and blind, and miserable, and naked?

I'm sure in some cases this is certainly true. But in most it is not. Most believers today are overly confident towards God, given the lives they are actually living (imo).

I have a question. You say, Most believer today are overly confident towards God. How could you ever know such a thing?

How do you know who is and who is not a believer?
How do you know how much confidence towards God each believer feels?
And how do you judge their lives not knowing them inside? Those who are the true believers?

Ok, that's more than one question.

Confidence towards God, isn't that our faith? That's a good thing, isn't it?

Now, I'm not talking about the person who is "Christian" in their own ideas, but not being born again.

The just live by faith - confidence and reliance.

2 Peter 1
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Yes, and here we have another instance of the NT describing those who had the promises of God in Christ, but were unfortunately NOT adding to their faith, virtue, and virtue knowledge, and knowledge self control, and self-control endurance... (2 Peter 1:5-7). The church today is trying to go on faith alone, and as Peter says, it will make a believer blind (2 Peter 1:9). Eventually they do take on forgetfulness of the cleansing of their sins, because their sins continue to be ever before their eyes, not being put away by the power of Christ in them.

Actually, what it says is that he who lacks these things IS blind, not BECOMES blind. He lacks these things being blind, and having forgotten that God purged his sins.

If you aren't adding these to your faith, it's because you don't see it, and you've forgotten what God did for you.

It's not a result, it's a cause, the way the passage reads.

Much love!
 

marks

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I think a good reminder to Christians is, Dead to sin and alive unto God. That's what we are.

I only wish that were true, LoL. This saying was a theological construct, yes. But what Paul was trying to get over to them was this: "If believers in Christ are dead to sins, then why are you still walking in them?" In other words, it was not just a mindset he was teaching, but a spiritual truth that should be producing a real change in their lives.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Theological construct? Is that another way of saying, it says this, but it doesn't mean this?

Does God want you be believe a lie? Something that's not true? I'd answer, no.

Jesus died, and is dead to sin, and alive unto God.

Likewise . . .

Reckon yourself also . . . dead indeed unto sin . . . alive unto God . . . through Jesus Christ our Lord.

He died to sin once, and we have also died to sin, and that only once. He is alive unto God, and we also are alive unto God.

If that's not true, why does God tell us to count it as being true? You may ask why say "reckon", I would answer, because so many don't.

Much love!
 
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WalterandDebbie

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We have believed it for years, tried living it for years…but hubby and I were talking and at 77 & 82 we find we are no more “dead” than were were in the 60’s 70’s. o_O

I’ve just read a book which really mad me think!!
…I know our old self got 'put on the altar' but it seems that most of us keep crawling on and off!! :eek:

Do you know anyone who has no chinks, hooks , or buttons to get pushed that is truly ‘dead’?
I don’t !!

It seems we have failed to really grasp the full message that we already did die IN CHRIST. Rom 6.6
So why the constant effort when We are already dead!! Why do we still keep struggling to kill which God says is DEAD?
It was final, finished, done Rom 6 10-11.

This must be linked to the knowledge that 'our mind must be renewed' about all this if we are going to life in victory! .."be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
That we believe His word and what He says about us.

We remember that God asked Adam in the Garden..” Who told you that you were naked?” ( one of the many favourites of @bbyrd009 :) )

And we know who said to Jesus- “ IF thou be the son of God…

It is the same voice which constantly tells to us that we do not measure up!! (and often he uses the voices of some in our life or on this very site to tell us that!! :D He will use any will object he can to so his destructive work)

If we think about what is called 'the death to self message'…really it is all about US and Self!!! ( " How am I doing...always measuring the me." )
“ Am I being good and spiritual by being dead enough.?”


Maybe it is time that we just stopped Trying and started bathing in His Presence..and seeng our God who is indeed awesome in wonder ..and as @Not me 's lovely post said the other day… "Let Us Draw Near…"in FULL assurance of faith.."

Time we believed what The Word has told us… For Ye are dead, and our new life is hid with Christ in God “
Amen, and thanks for such a good post.

Love always, Walter :)
 
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Hidden In Him

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You mentioned these have the same promises as believers. Does that then mean that you see the Laodiceans being addressed as unbelievers?

No, no. That's what Enoch is saying, but I believe they were unquestionably believers. But they were believers who, like much of the modern church, were effectively shutting the Lord out of their midst. It was one thing to believe in Him. Another to abide in Him. It is not a theological concept; i.e. it is not a given that someone who believes in Him necessarily abides in Him.
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Can you show me where this passage makes all the blessings we receive as our only as we "abide in Christ"? Could you define for me what "Abide in Christ" means? I very much hope you will pursue this with me.

Well, we are talking about the church at Laodicea, and the Lord said to them the following (as you cited):

16 Then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing"; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

The contrast here is between A. the Ephesians (and other churches) being potentially blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ if they abide in Him vs. B. the Laodiceans being according to Christ's own words, "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" in reality. There is a disconnect between what they should have been and what they were by shutting Him out. Thus Paul tells the Ephesians, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself." Predestinated here means that this was God's plan long in advance, that they should walk in these all the spiritual blessings that are in Christ. But He does not eliminate their freewill. They are still free to walk as spiritual paupers if they value the things of this world more instead, hence the situation with the Laodiceans.
Election, predestination, adoption, these are ours In Christ. If we are to say that we can lose our election, predestination, and adoption for not abiding in Christ, I think we need to be clear about what that means.

All three of these would deserve their own discussion, but to just touch on election, Peter told his readers that they needed to make their election sure. Why would they need to make it sure if it was already guaranteed and they could never lose it?
 

Hidden In Him

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I have a question. You say, Most believer today are overly confident towards God. How could you ever know such a thing?

How do you know who is and who is not a believer?
How do you know how much confidence towards God each believer feels?
And how do you judge their lives not knowing them inside? Those who are the true believers?

There are certainly some who have been dealt a very tough hand, and come to the Lord with a great deal of scares and wounds that may cause them to appear on the surface to not be true believers. To this I agree. But just as the Lord prophesied to the Laodicean church about their spiritual condition in New Testament times, so too has the Spirit prophesied to the modern church essentially the same thing. So it's not something I am making up, but rather something the Spirit of God Himself has been declaring for quite some time.

But you may not be one who believes in modern prophecy, in which case it would be news to you.

But what is your opinion: Do you think the modern church, in spiritual terms, is in general "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked," or do you believe something else? I know there are exceptions to the rule, but I am speaking of your assessment of the church as a whole in our time.
Actually, what it says is that he who lacks these things IS blind, not BECOMES blind. He lacks these things being blind, and having forgotten that God purged his sins.

If you aren't adding these to your faith, it's because you don't see it, and you've forgotten what God did for you.

It's not a result, it's a cause, the way the passage reads.

Much love!

We'd have to get fully into the passage in Greek, as he used a form of the word ἐπιγινώσκω twice in the passage, which is properly translated "recognition," not "knowledge." In other words, they can go from recognition of Christ and what He did for them to blindness of it if they do not add to their faith, virtue, and to virtue knowledge...

If you don't add these things to your faith, you take on blindness. It's a result, not a cause. :)
We may need to quit while we're ahead, marks. We are coming at this from two completely different theological frameworks.

Bless you, brother : )
 

marks

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You mentioned these have the same promises as believers. Does that then mean that you see the Laodiceans being addressed as unbelievers?

No, no. That's what Enoch is saying, but I believe they were unquestionably believers. But they were believers who, like much of the modern church, were effectively shutting the Lord out of their midst. It was one thing to believe in Him. Another to abide in Him. It is not a theological concept; i.e. it is not a given that someone who believes in Him necessarily abides in Him.

So then God will vomit His children out of His mouth? We seem to have very different ideas of what it means to be God's spirit child.

Wretched, poor, blind, naked does not to me describe God's children.

It was one thing to believe in Him. Another to abide in Him. It is not a theological concept; i.e. it is not a given that someone who believes in Him necessarily abides in Him.

I'd like to ask again . . . what does this "abide in Him" mean exactly?

The modern church . . . which church? The true church? Christendom, as Sir Anderson would say?

But I'd love to discuss this "abiding in Christ" with you.

being potentially blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ if they abide in Him

You realize this isn't the way the passage reads.

Predestinated here means that this was God's plan long in advance, that they should walk in these all the spiritual blessings that are in Christ. But He does not eliminate their freewill. They are still free to walk as spiritual paupers if they value the things of this world more instead, hence the situation with the Laodiceans.

Predestinated actually means to limit in advance. Not to place guidelines, to place boundries. Predestination is not a statement of intent, the expression of an idea, a plan, rather, it's to put in place that which will insure a certain result.

Thoughts?

Much love!
 

Enoch111

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If their candlestick was already gone, He would have been done speaking with them, yes?
Not necessarily. They were commanded to repent. God is longsuffering.

What Christians need to see clearly is that there are unsaved *professing* Christians in all churches since that time. But those in Laodicea were primarily unsaved. Genuine believers cannot be spiritually poor, naked, wretched, blind, and miserable, since they have the indwelling Holy Spirit and Christ within.
 
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marks

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All three of these would deserve their own discussion, but to just touch on election, Peter told his readers that they needed to make their election sure. Why would they need to make it sure if it was already guaranteed and they could never lose it?
Make sure they have it to begin with.

Make your . . . calling . . . and election sure. Don't be fooled thinking you have faith if you don't. And how can we know? Are we new people? There's an indicator.

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Theological construct? Is that another way of saying, it says this, but it doesn't mean this?

Does God want you be believe a lie? Something that's not true? I'd answer, no.

Yeah. My last post before we hang it up. We can pick it up again sometime later if you like, but I can tell we are interpreting passage after passage from two completely different theological perspectives. But the passage starts here with the word "if." If we are dead in Christ. Whether they actually are dead with Christ depends on IF they "Let not sin reign in [their] mortal bodies" or not. IF they do continue to let sin reign in their mortal bodies, then they would not yet be dead with Christ.

But yeah, I think I'll take a break from this one. Butting heads continually doesn't normally lead to much in the way of spiritual edification, LoL.

Bless you, bro, and thanks for the questions! Maybe the Lord will open a door so we see more eye-to-eye next time : )
 

Helen

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I think a good reminder to Christians is, Dead to sin and alive unto God. That's what we are.



7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Theological construct? Is that another way of saying, it says this, but it doesn't mean this?

Does God want you be believe a lie? Something that's not true? I'd answer, no.

Jesus died, and is dead to sin, and alive unto God.

Likewise . . .

Reckon yourself also . . . dead indeed unto sin . . . alive unto God . . . through Jesus Christ our Lord.

He died to sin once, and we have also died to sin, and that only once. He is alive unto God, and we also are alive unto God.

If that's not true, why does God tell us to count it as being true? You may ask why say "reckon", I would answer, because so many don't.

Much love!


Good post..

Do you see this "reckoning' that we are told to do and BELIEVE , as the Overcoming spoken about in Rev 3 ?

Jesus said John 6 :30 "This is the work of God that you believe
on Him whom He sent.."

Obviously because of the OP you can tell I am at the place of seeing that I so easily fall into the trap of NOT believing on Him 24/7 and always checking to see if I am overcoming the flesh enough.
It wearies me...and now I say ENOUGH...it is time I really believed what God wants us to believe...that our overcoming is in the mind...back to the beginning...'Who's Voice will we believe and listen to'

I doubt that on this pilgrim path that have a full decade ahead on me..
I am choosing to give 'me' up, and believe what He has said... "YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid with Christ in God."

I want to be found in Rev 3 among the overcomers. Winning the battle of the mind and having the mind of Christ.
"to be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.."
 
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Helen

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( to Hidden in Him) which church? The true church? Christendom, as Sir Anderson would say?

But I'd love to discuss this "abiding in Christ" with you.


I'd like that too...I want the thread to stay on topic , but I can see that what we in the 60's called " Constantly Abiding" is never mention much these days...
...but back there in the Holiness Churches , even the Pentecostal Church ...everyone knew what 'constantly abiding' was...
= Our soul returning to our magnetic north...in all we do , we do well but when the needed job is done our heart always swings back to 'home' ...our Magnetic North...Fathers heart.

I too would like to know what @Hidden In Him would say. :)
I am now weary of all the -'we must do this , and we must do that..'
It does not work because it bring our eyes back to me, me, me....

'I must decrease and He must increase'....

.....H
 
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marks

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There are certainly some who have been dealt a very tough hand, and come to the Lord with a great deal of scares and wounds that may cause them to appear on the surface to not be true believers. To this I agree.

Jesus Himself is the only fit judge. So what does that mean to us in how we think about each other?

Do we believe all things? Hope all things? Does this truly inform our thoughts, or do we continue to think what we think of others?

But just as the Lord prophesied to the Laodicean church about their spiritual condition in New Testament times, so too has the Spirit prophesied to the modern church essentially the same thing. So it's not something I am making up, but rather something the Spirit of God Himself has been declaring for quite some time.

But you may not be one who believes in modern prophecy, in which case it would be news to you.

The Modern Church. Love to know what you mean when you say that.

Does it include you? Are we talking one out of 7? What does this mean?

I don't see where prophecy has ceased yet, so no, I don't rule it out. But I've not heard this prophecy to which you refer, so what can I say? Let the prophecy speak, and the others discern.

But what is your opinion: Do you think the modern church, in spiritual terms, is in general "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked," or do you believe something else? I know there are exceptions to the rule, but I am speaking of your assessment of the church as a whole in our time.

The church in modern times . . . the true church . . . is the group of people who have trusted in Jesus, who are born again God's spirit children, who are created brand new, sharing God's very nature of righteousness and holiness. So I do not think the Modern Church is wretched and poor and blind and naked. We are glorified and are rich and are given sight, and are clothed.

Many who call themselves the church aren't. And they are wretched and poor and blind and naked. And they need to go to Jesus.

We'd have to get fully into the passage in Greek,

Let's do!

:)

as he used a form of the word ἐπιγινώσκω twice in the passage, which is properly translated "recognition," not "knowledge." In other words, they can go from recognition of Christ and what He did for them to blindness of it if they do not add to their faith, virtue, and to virtue knowledge...

epiginosko - "upon-knowledge", a strengthened knowledge. Not mere recognition, as if a "lighter" form of knowledge, a "deeper" knowing. Thayer calls this "precise and correct knowledge".

This is used in this passage in reference to the knowledge of God, and of Jesus. We need to have a precise and correct knowledge of God.

You have not because you add not.

upload_2019-11-15_10-59-11.png

In this passage, 'not being present' and 'is blind' are both present tense, both occurring in the same time.

Forgetting being aorist had already happened. You've forgotten you've been cleansed, and now can't see, and now lack these things. These are the tenses in the passage.

If you don't add these things to your faith, you take on blindness. It's a result, not a cause. :)
We may need to quit while we're ahead, marks. We are coming at this from two completely different theological frameworks.

Bless you, brother : )

I'm not sure our frameworks are Completely different. But I'm always happy to continue to discuss the meanings of Scripture!

It seems to me that you see God's children, or many of them, as miserable little wretches who, if they can't get their act together, are going to be spat out. And this puts the onus on us.

I see God's children as celestial children of our Faithful Creator, nevermore to be separated from our Father. He has done it!

Much love!
 

Helen

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Jesus Himself is the only fit judge. So what does that mean to us in how we think about each other?

Do we believe all things? Hope all things? Does this truly inform our thoughts, or do we continue to think what we think of others?



The Modern Church. Love to know what you mean when you say that.

Does it include you? Are we talking one out of 7? What does this mean?

I don't see where prophecy has ceased yet, so no, I don't rule it out. But I've not heard this prophecy to which you refer, so what can I say? Let the prophecy speak, and the others discern.



The church in modern times . . . the true church . . . is the group of people who have trusted in Jesus, who are born again God's spirit children, who are created brand new, sharing God's very nature of righteousness and holiness. So I do not think the Modern Church is wretched and poor and blind and naked. We are glorified and are rich and are given sight, and are clothed.

Many who call themselves the church aren't. And they are wretched and poor and blind and naked. And they need to go to Jesus.



Let's do!

:)



epiginosko - "upon-knowledge", a strengthened knowledge. Not mere recognition, as if a "lighter" form of knowledge, a "deeper" knowing. Thayer calls this "precise and correct knowledge".

This is used in this passage in reference to the knowledge of God, and of Jesus. We need to have a precise and correct knowledge of God.

You have not because you add not.

View attachment 7760

In this passage, 'not being present' and 'is blind' are both present tense, both occurring in the same time.

Forgetting being aorist had already happened. You've forgotten you've been cleansed, and now can't see, and now lack these things. These are the tenses in the passage.



I'm not sure our frameworks are Completely different. But I'm always happy to continue to discuss the meanings of Scripture!

It seems to me that you see God's children, or many of them, as miserable little wretches who, if they can't get their act together, are going to be spat out. And this puts the onus on us.

I see God's children as celestial children of our Faithful Creator, nevermore to be separated from our Father. He has done it!

Much love!


Hey, don't you guys get too wordy and heady on me...
Keep it simple so I can follow it without falling asleep...:D

Did you read my post #55 ???

.Don't skip over it .. :(

.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Fiddle sticks. Looks like I may not be getting much work done today after all. Oh, well. The Lord whispered something to me this morning about not worrying if I took a day off, so I guess I'll not be anxious about it.

But looks like I have time for another post.
I'd like that too...I want the thread to stay on topic , but I can see that who we in the 60's called " Constantly Abiding" is never mention much these days...but back there in the Holiness Churches , even the Pentecostal Church ...everyone knew what 'constantly abiding' was...
= Our soul magnetic north...in all we do , we do well but when the needed job is done our heart always swings back to 'home' ...our Magnetic North...Fathers heart.

I too would like to know what @Hidden In Him would say. :).....H

Not sure about the Magnetic North thing, LoL, but by "abiding in Him," I simply mean abiding in His Presence, i.e. through prayer, worship, study of His word, ministry, ect. It's what I was on about in this thread here:
How Is The Greatest Commandment Kept?
I am now weary of all the -'we must do this , and we must do that..'
It does not work because it bring our eyes back to me, me, me....

Well, to that I'd say that we make a mistake the minute we turn inward and start taking any glory unto ourselves, but the scriptures seem to be full of exhortations that it takes effort to abide in Him. Take Jude 1:21 for instance:

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

The "love of God" here was just another expression for the Presence of God, hence the command to continue praying in the Spirit and building themselves up in their most holy faith.

Btw, about the expression "following our Magnetic North," if you followed somebody else's "Magnetic North" and their compass was a little off, wouldn't that lead to tragedy?

Just saying. Not sure the NT writers would have called that a "trustworthy saying." :confused:


tenor.gif
 

Nancy

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I'd like that too...I want the thread to stay on topic , but I can see that who we in the 60's called " Constantly Abiding" is never mention much these days...but back there in the Holiness Churches , even the Pentecostal Church ...everyone knew what 'constantly abiding' was...
= Our soul magnetic north...in all we do , we do well but when the needed job is done our heart always swings back to 'home' ...our Magnetic North...Fathers heart.

I too would like to know what @Hidden In Him would say. :)
I am now weary of all the -'we must do this , and we must do that..'
It does not work because it bring our eyes back to me, me, me....

'I must decrease and He must increase'....

.....H

For sure Helen, " Constantly Abiding" <--- to me this means walking, talking, thinking, praying, worshiping...in the Spirit. And yes! If our eyes are always "Northward", it is about HIM and not us. My local body gives us scriptures each week (written on the card they give us each week) solely on abiding...
xo
 

Helen

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Fiddle sticks. Looks like I may not be getting much work done today after all. Oh, well. The Lord whispered something to me this morning about not worrying if I took a day off, so I guess I'll not be anxious about it.

But looks like I have time for another post.


Not sure about the Magnetic North thing, LoL, but by "abiding in Him," I simply mean abiding in His Presence, i.e. through prayer, worship, study of His word, ministry, ect. It's what I was on about in this thread here:
How Is The Greatest Commandment Kept?


Well, to that I'd say that we make a mistake the minute we turn inward and start taking any glory unto ourselves, but the scriptures seem to be full of exhortations that it takes effort to abide in Him. Take Jude 1:21 for instance:

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

The "love of God" here was just another expression for the Presence of God, hence the command to continue praying in the Spirit and building themselves up in their most holy faith.

Btw, about the expression "following our Magnetic North," if you followed somebody else's "Magnetic North" and their compass was a little off, wouldn't that lead to tragedy?

Just saying. Not sure the NT writers would have called that a "trustworthy saying." :confused:


tenor.gif


:p

Well you may not agree that God is our True Home and the Place that we who love Him swing back to when our mind is free from other things.
But, maybe some don't ...God is where my needle swings back to...whether you like the phrase or not, I do!!! ;)

God I believe gave us all an inner compass ...but maybe some have magnets which draw their own personal 'needle' in other directions!
 
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