What about the Death to Self message ?

[Episkopos]

You'd have to go into more detail here, Episkopos. This sounds again like the application of a theological construct to me, but maybe you can explain it more clearly.

How about...99% of Christians today walk in the power of the flesh...but many of these boast that they can see...like the Pharisees did in their day. Jesus said they were in sin...a dire sin...because of this. We have learned nothing from owning and reading bibles it would seem.

Religious sins are worse than carnal sins.
(But if we claimed nothing for ourselves we would not be condemned. )

So then the devil has this thing going in the churches whereby people justify themselves and boast of their own salvation claiming to know God and see spiritual reality...in exchange for a false assurance of eternal life after death.

So when someone comes from God to speak the truth ...these are seen as posers like themselves. So in this way the churches have become immune from God's intervention.

 

[Hidden In Him]

How about...99% of Christians today walk in the power of the flesh...but many of these boast that they can see...like the Pharisees did in their day. Jesus said they were in sin...a dire sin...because of this. We have learned nothing from owning and reading bibles it would seem.

Religious sins are worse than carnal sins.
(But if we claimed nothing for ourselves we would not be condemned. )

So then the devil has this thing going in the churches whereby people justify themselves and boast of their own salvation claiming to know God and see spiritual reality...in exchange for a false assurance of eternal life after death.

So when someone comes from God to speak the truth ...these are seen as posers like themselves. So in this way the churches have become immune from God's intervention.

Well, I understand all that, but I was hoping you'd go into more detail on what you meant specifically by saying, "But this idea quickly becomes ...always learning (improving) but never coming into the knowledge of the truth. One cannot increasingly abide in Him anymore than one increasingly tries to enter a house. Either you enter in or not. And it is God that permits or denies that entrance. It is His house."

Explain what you mean here for me in clearer terms.

 

[Episkopos]

Well, I understand all that, but I was hoping you'd go into more detail on what you meant specifically by saying, "But this idea quickly becomes ...always learning (improving) but never coming into the knowledge of the truth. One cannot increasingly abide in Him anymore than one increasingly tries to enter a house. Either you enter in or not. And it is God that permits or denies that entrance. It is His house."

Explain what you mean here for me in clearer terms.

Show me someone who is half-crucified...half-pregnant...half in a house or half out of a house. Half-dead....or half-alive. Can a person be half-holy and half-sinful?

Can of the same tree there be good fruit and bad fruit?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Can of the same tree there be good fruit and bad fruit?

Well, when James asked "can a fountain send forth out of the same source both sweet and bitter water?", he wasn't saying that Christians could not both bless and curse others because that's precisely what he said they were doing (James 3:9-11). So it wasn't actually a question of "can it happen?" as if it were impossible, but rather a statement that it would be unnatural for it to occur.

Same would go for the other analogies as well, Episkopos. James then quoted the analogy about the fig tree (James 3:12), so the common understanding was that, while these things shouldn't happen they indeed were happening among Christians.

I can also cite my own life. I often bless other Christians, but there have been times when I was virtually cursing them also, just as those James was writing to were doing. So yes, I think in spiritual terms you can be half-dead, half pregnant, and such. It's just that these are unnatural things, and therefore should not be.

 

[Episkopos]

Well, when James asked "can a fountain send forth out of the same source both sweet and bitter water?", he wasn't saying that Christians could not both bless and curse others because that's precisely what he said they were doing (James 3:9-11). So it wasn't actually a question of "can it happen?" as if it were impossible, but rather a statement that it would be unnatural for it to occur.

But these were carnal men. That's what James was saying. Did you miss that?

Same would go for the other analogies as well, Episkopos. James then quoted the analogy about the fig tree (James 3:12), so the common understanding was that, while these things shouldn't happen they indeed were happening among Christians.

Because they are babes. Most believers never get out of diapers...so to speak.

I can also cite my own life. I often bless other Christians, but there have been times when I was virtually cursing them also, just as those James was writing to were doing. So yes, I think in spiritual terms you can be half-dead, half pregnant, and such. It's just that these are unnatural things, and therefore should not be.

A person can only be half-Christian when he is not IN Christ. There is still mixture...therefore no holiness.

 

[Helen]

Galatians teaches that the one who has is looking to their physical obedience to commandments has "fallen from grace", that is, is no longer functioning by faith in Jesus, and reliance on His power to keep us. They are no longer entered by faith in Jesus into the grace in which we stand, instead are trying to "stand" through performance in the body.

I think that the way He increases and I decrease is that I stop looking to myself for me to be acceptable to God, instead looking to Jesus for my acceptability to God.

Consciousness of my sin puts my eyes on me. Consciousness of Jesus' righteousness given to me opens my spiritual understanding to the fact of God's loving presence with me. And He most assuredly loves me, and is here with me.

But when I look at me, I lose sight of Him.

God knows our sins are of the flesh, and we are not of the flesh. We need to know the same thing.

Much love!

Amen...we are sure on the same page on this subject for sure!

 

[brakelite]

Quite a wind up for this, lol.

I suppose that is a way of summing it up, yes, though I would favor a more descriptive answer myself. But at least it's contemplative : )

I thought the post was long enough as it was.

 

[brakelite]

But this idea quickly becomes ...always learning (improving) but never coming into the knowledge of the truth.

One cannot increasingly abide in Him anymore than one increasingly tries to enter a house. Either you enter in or not. And it is God that permits or denies that entrance. It is His house.

The bible is a record of what it takes to enter in. A full surrender and an asking, seeking and knocking.

Our lack of need of God is really the roadblock to our understanding of our actual need of Him.

I would like to offer a different take, by changing your analogy somewhat. It isn't God who is our temple...we are to be His temple. So the key to overcoming isn't by entering into Him more, but allowing Him to enter into us more. Some rooms we prefer to keep the door shut and locked. We need to give Him carte blanche to enter into our lives and do all according to His will and purpose. I remember distinctly the surrender I made when I first came to Christ...make my life something you can approve of, was my prayer. That was my declaration of surrender. The difficulty is in retaining that mindset...not shutting Him out of the house as the Laodiceans had done leaving Jesus on the outside pleading to come back in.

 

[brakelite]

Galatians teaches that the one who has is looking to their physical obedience to commandments has "fallen from grace", that is, is no longer functioning by faith in Jesus, and reliance on His power to keep us. They are no longer entered by faith in Jesus into the grace in which we stand, instead are trying to "stand" through performance in the body.

The Galatians certainly had a problem. But it wasn't that they were keeping the commandments...it was because of their trust in commandment keeping above simple faith in God's grace and mercy for their justification. But there's nothing wrong, and everything good, about commandment keeping. And the truth is, and few Christians are willing to face this, is that commandment keeping is essential, otherwise we reject God's authority over our lives...But commandment keeping must also've accomplished by and through faith in the grace and power of God.
I must admit to being suspicious of posts like yours that become the knee jerk reaction to anyone advocating obedience. Obedience is not legalism. Nor does obedience automatically qualify as man working for salvation...in fact no obedience is possible at all without God's divine aid...so when you see someone obeying God's commandments, it cannot be a self motivated works based salvation thing, because God would not involve Himself in such a farce. Is someone is obeying the commandments, it's only because God is working in their life and changing that person into His image.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But these were carnal men. That's what James was saying. Did you miss that?

Hey, man. I'm back. Yeah, I know they were carnal men; carnal believers. But we're assuming they were Christians, right? And the word Christ meant "anointed." Thus a "Christian" was someone who had likewise had the Spirit of God poured out upon him, and thus likewise anointed with the Spirit of God (albeit to a lesser extent than Christ Himself). So at some point they had the Spirit poured out upon them, as was commonly the case with New Testament believers.

Don't you think that they would have at least been properly considered to be "in Christ" at the time they were baptized in the Holy Spirit?

See, the apostle Peter moved in great power, at one point even healing the sick and raising the dead. These works were proof that Christ was in him and he was in Christ, for certainly he could not have done them in his own power. And yet this same apostle was later found to be teaching falsehood by the example he was setting, siding with those of the circumcision for which the apostle Paul had to rebuke him. At times like this Peter most certainly was not abiding in Christ, for Christ would not have made such a mistake.

I guess what I'm asking is, you speak of being "in Christ" as almost a form of absolute; that you either are or you are not, and that such a state is permanent once you reach a level of true spiritual maturity. Is this what you truly believe? I don't see it this way. I see it as a moment by moment thing, and that even the most mature or immature of us can abide in Him or not at any moment, given the circumstances and what we with our own freewill choose to do.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I would like to offer a different take, by changing your analogy somewhat. It isn't God who is our temple...we are to be His temple. So the key to overcoming isn't by entering into Him more, but allowing Him to enter into us more. Some rooms we prefer to keep the door shut and locked. We need to give Him carte blanche to enter into our lives and do all according to His will and purpose. I remember distinctly the surrender I made when I first came to Christ...make my life something you can approve of, was my prayer. That was my declaration of surrender. The difficulty is in retaining that mindset...not shutting Him out of the house as the Laodiceans had done leaving Jesus on the outside pleading to come back in.

Actually, Brakelite, I think the expression of entering into Him is the best one. What's meant to be communicated is that by entering into Christ we have entered into all that He is. Understood this way, if Christ were to enter into us, He would enter into all that we are, which would be to enter into sin and corruption (God forbid, LoL). I know there is another way to take it more positively, and that is the way you are describing (of us being a spiritual temple which Christ enters into), but I think by "in Christ," Paul was actually communicating something more than that, which is why he put this way so much and not the other way around. A temple is just a building waiting to be filled. But entering into a person; now you have an analogy that more perfectly communicates the experience.

Just my take on why Paul may have used the expression "in Christ" far more often than he did references to Christ being in us : )

 

[Episkopos]

Don't you think that they would have at least been properly considered to be "in Christ" at the time they were baptized in the Holy Spirit?

This is where one's mind must NOT conform to human logic....and why so many fail to grasp the will of God.

When we are baptized by the Spirit we are baptized INTO Christ. But that does not mean we enter into His presence to live there always...to remain. So then entering into Christ is deliberate.

To make matters more difficult...we can be in Christ without being IN Christ.

For example...

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Compare the bolded red verses....How can they who are in Him not bear fruit when He says that they that are in Him bear MUCH fruit.

So then we can be in His body yet not be abiding in Him.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is where one's mind must NOT conform to human logic....and why so many fail to grasp the will of God.

When we are baptized by the Spirit we are baptized INTO Christ. But that does not mean we enter into His presence to live there always...to remain. So then entering into Christ is deliberate.

To make matters more difficult...we can be in Christ without being IN Christ.

For example...

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Compare the bolded red verses....How can they who are in Him not bear fruit when He says that they that are in Him bear MUCH fruit.

So then we can be in His body yet not be abiding in Him.

This is an excellent passage to study, and very interesting, so thanks for citing it and bringing it up : )

But now, here is how I read it: The text doesn't actually say "He that abideth in My body and bringeth forth no fruit," it says, "He that abideth in Me and bringeth forth no fruit." We are both agreed that one can be part of a church body and yet not bring forth any fruit. Nearly all Christians agree on this in fact. But the text seems to say that you can receive the Spirit of God and therefore be in Him, and yet not continue to abide in Him to the extent that you eventually bear fruit, yes? I.e., you can be baptized in the Holy Spirit and be in Him for a time, but if you do not continue to abide in Him you will be cast away.

 

[bbyrd009]

We have believed it for years, tried living it for years…but hubby and I were talking and at 77 & 82 we find we are no more “dead” than were were in the 60’s 70’s.

I’ve just read a book which really mad me think!!
…I know our old self got 'put on the altar' but it seems that most of us keep crawling on and off!!

Do you know anyone who has no chinks, hooks , or buttons to get pushed that is truly ‘dead’?
I don’t !!

It seems we have failed to really grasp the full message that we already did die IN CHRIST. Rom 6.6
So why the constant effort when We are already dead!! Why do we still keep struggling to kill which God says is DEAD?
It was final, finished, done Rom 6 10-11.

This must be linked to the knowledge that 'our mind must be renewed' about all this if we are going to life in victory! .."be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
That we believe His word and what He says about us.

We remember that God asked Adam in the Garden..” Who told you that you were naked?” ( one of the many favourites of @bbyrd009 )

And we know who said to Jesus- “ IF thou be the son of God…”

It is the same voice which constantly tells to us that we do not measure up!! (and often he uses the voices of some in our life or on this very site to tell us that!! He will use any will object he can to so his destructive work)

If we think about what is called 'the death to self message'…really it is all about US and Self!!! ( " How am I doing...always measuring the me." )
“ Am I being good and spiritual by being dead enough.?”


Maybe it is time that we just stopped Trying and started bathing in His Presence..and seeng our God who is indeed awesome in wonder ..and as @Not me 's lovely post said the other day… "Let Us Draw Near…"in FULL assurance of faith.."

Time we believed what The Word has told us… “For Ye are dead, and our new life is hid with Christ in God “

hmm but what if you never really died at all, just went right back to your old life, after a little Luby’s? Like me?

 

[bbyrd009]

So then we can be in His body yet not be abiding in Him.

ha could be that stating spiritual conclusions as if they were already manifest in every life soul that has performed some approved ritual, “baptized by the Holy Spirit” even, might not be um optimum

 

[bbyrd009]

So, I’d like to make a radical suggestion, if i may; easy to say ‘i love Jesus’ and certainly easy enough to fall in love with the idea of Jesus as we understand him too, Imelda...but how do you hate Jesus? Irl? Bc if you then, being evil can say the one but not the other, what cost has really been counted?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But this idea quickly becomes ...always learning (improving) but never coming into the knowledge of the truth.

One cannot increasingly abide in Him anymore than one increasingly tries to enter a house. Either you enter in or not. And it is God that permits or denies that entrance. It is His house.

The bible is a record of what it takes to enter in. A full surrender and an asking, seeking and knocking.

Our lack of need of God is really the roadblock to our understanding of our actual need of Him.

I took hih to mean...to abide in Him for longer periods of time without stumbling. But I will admit that I am probably blending righteousness with holiness again. In fact, I'm certain that I am. And yet...all I really know is to go from trust to trust when He shows me where I am not trusting something He has said...and that is the righteousness that is by trust/learning the obedience of trust. Its the only abiding/remaining I have learned, to remain in trust. I always equated that with remaining in Him (remaining in trust, growing in trust/stumbling less in it and remaining in it for longer periods of time.) But then that would be the righteousness that is by trust, not holiness...

 

[Hidden In Him]

I took hih to mean...to abide in Him for longer periods of time without stumbling.

Yes : ) To "abide" in the Greek means "to continue in," so by increasingly abide I meant to increasingly continue or remain in Him.

Thanks for maybe clearing up my meaning, stunned by grace. Sometimes people attempt to do that and it just makes matters worse, lol, but in this case you were correct : )

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well, from start to finish, its all by trust. A man lives by his trust (through grace). So...remaining in that trust, growing in that trust, is the only remaining I know. Its the only race I know of, a race of trust. And when I am tempted to turn back to the leaven of religious men and the leaven of the world/ Herod, and I refuse and keep insisting on trust, not caring even when everyone thinks I'm a moron for it, I develop (somehow) endurance, so that I go longer periods of time without the sin of not trusting, without panic and mistrust, without the leaven that poisons me away from simple trust and into contortions of trying to do both what the world counsels and what God counsels, which is impossible. The world says to collect more than you need for the day. God says to not worry about that. It's like, the first hurdle, and we've tripped and fallen flat on our faces while insisting we're running our race of trust. He can make a pair of shoes last for 40 years but He can't see to our provision in old age unless we have amassed the 2 million dollars the world says we will need?

We can't understand it. We still don't understand. He fed how many people with a loaf or two of bread? He could make one loaf feed you for 30 years of retirement. But he couldn't do many miracles there because of their unbelief/mistrust...

 

[marks]

I am nowhere near yet having come to the place in my spiritual life where I can truthfully say, "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me."

How will you get there? How do you make this happen?

Much love!