What and when is the rapture?

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Marty fox

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Part 1

Introduction

Does the bible really teach us that the rapture is the church being rescued by Jesus from a 7 year tribulation?

Actually, the rapture or a seven year tribulation is not mentioned in the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation shows the church going through a 3 1/2 year persecution by a beast. This is a modern interpretation. In order to obtain truth, we need to be willing to sacrifice cherished traditions on the alter of scriptural revelation. This is what we will propose in this article.

What the book of Revelation doesn’t say about the rapture.

The book of Revelation was given with a specific warning to 7 churches of what would soon take place. Within this book of the bible a solemn promise is given that Jesus will stand with them and reward them for their trials and tribulations. The book of Revelation is written for us but not written to us.

Why would God choose one generation to be saved from persecutions and all of the other generations to suffer through them? It is great a privilege to suffer for Christ.

Here are some verses in the bible that leads some to believe is applicable to the rapture.

Revelation 4:12 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

This is not the rapture. It says come up here and I will show YOU (meaning John) what must take place after this. John is taken in the Spirit and receives a vision in heaven.

Some also believe that Revelation 3:10-12 is the rapture.

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

In Revelation 3:11-12 Jesus tells them to hold on so that no one can take their crown so they can overcome and be rewarded. This was a personable letter given to the church of Philadelphia, it wasn’t written to us, instead it was written for us.
Is the rapture in the Olivet Discourse?

Some also believe that Matthew 24:31 is the rapture

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his ELECT from the four winds,from one end of the heavens to the other.

This is not the rapture either. Matthew, Mark and Luke tell us that the ELECT are the chosen Jews that God saved during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. 1.1 million Jews were killed during the siege on Jerusalem and 97 000 people were taken captives.

These verses are during this conflict that was in their future and in our past.

1.Mark 13:20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the ELECT, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them

2.Luke 21:24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

3.Matthew 24:22-24 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the ELECT those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the ELECT

The ones taken in Matthew 24:40-41 are not raptured either, they are taken in judgment.

Matthew 24:36-41 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

In Noah’s time it was better to be left than to be taken.

In verse 39, the flood came and took them away. They are taken in judgment and the people were killed by the flood. The ones left behind were on the ark safe and sound. The ones in Noah’s day are taken away just like the ones in verse 40-41 are taken away. They are taken away in judgment. I want to be left behind safe and secure.

What did Paul teach us that the rapture is for? When it would occur?

There are two main teaching by Paul on the rapture,the first one is:

1.1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The second example that is used is in 1st Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true:

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

There is also no mention of a tribulation upon the earth or a persecution upon the saints after these events. Paul tells us that the rapture is only for changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven. Paul also says that this happens at the last trumpet. The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.The number seven means completeness to God, the completeness of Gods wrath is finished. Remember there was also a trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Please go to part 2
 
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Timtofly

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The rapture is at the Second Coming.

The Second Coming is after the tribulation of the first 4 Seals. The Second Coming is prior to the 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

Just like John wrote.
 

Marty fox

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The rapture is at the Second Coming.

The Second Coming is after the tribulation of the first 4 Seals. The Second Coming is prior to the 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

Just like John wrote.

I partially agree it’s at the second coming after the great tribulation
 

solway

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(Not having a Right to Live in a Geographic Area?)

Long Story Short, (joshua 12:8), the "ites" in the bible as a race or special interest group, because of their sin..............they lost their right to residency in various places, and altogether in the earth.

The Jewish people follow a similar description, because of their sin in the old testament god removed them from various places............in the new testament, its a combination of, "satan's suicide pleasure"/"satan's general pleasure", and uncleanness that keeps jewish people circulating and occupying jerusalem.

Jerusalem has had many modifications to its geographic area, since it was occupied by the jews relatively recently, they have been surrendering land. (not just because the body rots and dies quickly in certain areas there for them, but because, nations and many people are motivated to target them there because of their uncleanness, or, intereferences in "satan's suicide pleasure").

Shortly before the Crucifixion. Jesus and the Apostles were eating and celebrating, but not according to the customs of the Jews on their holy day in the same period of time................later on..............After the Crucifixion, Stephen celebrated the Crucifixion as a Holy Day for Jesus, and he went to a certain place. Wanting to make an example out of him, they began to put him to death, but already they didn't have a legal right to live in that territory and god put them to death..............in response to that, the jews there at that time, removed geographic area from their claim in jerusalem/isreal, at that time.

During the Crucifixion. Jesus............was the immediate euthanasia of the jewish people in that disputed geographic territory in jerusalem, both for being a false witness against his testimony, and for using force against his body and testimony there..............so they decided on a territory just outside of what they viewed jerusalem, to have Jesus put to death. (otherwise it was only dead bodies of the jews, by one angel or another, exceedingly).............(nonetheless, "dead flesh of those genetic lines, is mankind's accusation to resolve, and not god's accusation to resolve, and therefore, the crucifixion was the example of the law, and rebuke for them) (god doesn't have to identify this any generation specifically, with this earth specifically, and God does not have to do anything more or less then to identify with individuals only, as humanity lives out its short lifespan before its death).

What is this (fake) rapture business? (first of all, work hard, play hard, live your daily lives, just as you are, filthy or clean, eat a good meal, watch a ball game, and be silent wait the few years until humanity is deceased, enjoy the corpse of the son of man whoever he is, and then die in a few years with the rest of creation)

God Named "Jerusalem" in Daniel's Prophecy and in Revelations Prophecy..........the earth has no identification with noah's rainbow, nothing connected to a unified field..............and no specific distinction between mankind and the genetic lines that are not classified with "jesus" for the equal potential the gospel affords...............this is the nature of the "rapture", these events, that, are fantasy land for humanity as it dies in its suicide pleasure..............but let humanity die, prayer is the new testament covenant, not a gospel of (dead) works.

(Its only a few million dead from Covid19, that is nothing really, we want to see 5 billion dead from RABIES globally...........even at that time the rest of humanity will die in their natural suicide pleasure, things will continue, but marvel at the amount of lives lost in their suicide pleasure over these issues, and how much more important is prayer!!)

There is a Theory.

(that the earth has some areas in it, that is more responsive when what qualifies as "dead flesh" is removed from those zones, so its not necessarily jerusalem)

(we know the nazis reached out to asia, and to russia, but after that failed, they gave up on capturing africa or jerusalem or whatever it was history accurately reports.................they achieved a goal there (where they were) and they wanted to hold that position for a reproof, and it was quickly undone the truth, there, before that regime fell) (it was at that time the usa and europe used jewish people and minorities more in their forces there, and quickly, but we will have the benefit of RABIES, and they did not have that benefit, we have the benefit of the last generation)

(humanity doesn't have a science not necessarily on their terms, to gauge, one or two lucky nuclear strikes to ease its burden, of RABIES, hopefully we see this soon, we expect 60 to 80 percent of the usa's population to die in mass very quickly in only a few number of years)
 
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CharismaticLady

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Part 1

Introduction

Does the bible really teach us that the rapture is the church being rescued by Jesus from a 7 year tribulation?

Actually, the rapture or a seven year tribulation is not mentioned in the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation shows the church going through a 3 1/2 year persecution by a beast. This is a modern interpretation. In order to obtain truth, we need to be willing to sacrifice cherished traditions on the alter of scriptural revelation. This is what we will propose in this article.

What the book of Revelation doesn’t say about the rapture.

The book of Revelation was given with a specific warning to 7 churches of what would soon take place. Within this book of the bible a solemn promise is given that Jesus will stand with them and reward them for their trials and tribulations. The book of Revelation is written for us but not written to us.

Why would God choose one generation to be saved from persecutions and all of the other generations to suffer through them? It is great a privilege to suffer for Christ.

Here are some verses in the bible that leads some to believe is applicable to the rapture.

Revelation 4:12 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

This is not the rapture. It says come up here and I will show YOU (meaning John) what must take place after this. John is taken in the Spirit and receives a vision in heaven.

Some also believe that Revelation 3:10-12 is the rapture.

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

In Revelation 3:11-12 Jesus tells them to hold on so that no one can take their crown so they can overcome and be rewarded. This was a personable letter given to the church of Philadelphia, it wasn’t written to us, instead it was written for us.
Is the rapture in the Olivet Discourse?

The letters to the seven churches most certainly apply to us. At least the last four do: Thyatira (Roman Catholics and Orthodox) Jezebel is the goddess the Church has named Mary. Sardis is the Reformation with the first teachers preaching dead doctrines that do not cause life, but later in that church age there were others that remained holy, that I assume would be John Wesley, the first holiness preacher and forerunner to the latter rain of the Holy Spirit. Philadelphia are Christians that believe all of the New Covenant, including the gifts. They are not Cessationists, nor turned grace into laciviousness. And finally the great turning away, Laodecia, right before the tribulation. Those that need to overcome in any of these denominational types will be able to do so as they have to stand up and be counted, even unto death. No new Gentiles will come into the church during this time, only Jews will be saved for the first time and come into the Church. There is not a Gentile church and a Jewish church.
 

Enoch111

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Does the bible really teach us that the rapture is the church being rescued by Jesus from a 7 year tribulation?
Do we really need another anti-pre-tribulation-rapture thread? I could take the time to show you your fallacies, but it won't make any difference. So let's leave it at that.
 
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Daniel Veler

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The word rapture doesn’t occur in the Bible. Men use the term to mean the same thing Paul meant when we are caught up to meet Christ in the air. Now there has been a lot of debate on the timing of this event. Paul refers to it as happening at the last trumpet. To eliminate such a long debate study the scriptures and ask the Lord for understanding. All you are going to get here is debate. Leaving you with the option to choose the one that sounds the best.
 

Timtofly

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I partially agree it’s at the second coming after the great tribulation
I think it says after great tribulation. The last 1991 years have seen millions martyred through great tribulation. Then there is the tribulation of the those days in the first 4 Seals. The church does not carry out the final harvest. That is the job of the angels. Unless angels are symbolic for the church, only they go through the Great Tribulation. The final harvest cannot start until after Jesus Christ arrives with the angels. Since Jesus Christ arriving is the Second Coming, then the church is removed. The Lamb and the angels carry out the final harvest.
 

Enoch111

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The word rapture doesn’t occur in the Bible.
So what? That is one of the weakest arguments floating around. So if you are serious about knowing the truth about a pre-tribulation-rapture, just put that argument aside and focus on the doctrine (which is well established).
 

solway

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The word rapture doesn’t occur in the Bible. Men use the term to mean the same thing Paul meant when we are caught up to meet Christ in the air. Now there has been a lot of debate on the timing of this event. Paul refers to it as happening at the last trumpet. To eliminate such a long debate study the scriptures and ask the Lord for understanding. All you are going to get here is debate. Leaving you with the option to choose the one that sounds the best.

(Technically the phrase "rapture" is written in the bible)

ROMANS 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
ROMANS 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
ROMANS 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

(Those Statements of "Baptism unto Death", is probably where the modern phrase "Rapture" originates, in the new testament)

Recall, in the "Rapture Theories", the Dead Rise Rise First (Baptism of the Dead)..........then those that remain and are not yet deceased, are spiritually caught up with them in the clouds, to be with the lord forever..............the phrase or the theory of "Rapture=Baptism of the Dead" is clearly explained and written in the gospel's law. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

(The Theory is not written to the carnal minded, those billions of unclean people that only view flesh and blood, unclean people) (but some detail can be added)

(in Vietnam, shortly before Nguyen Van Lem was euthanized, for the pleasure and enjoyment of the people in that day..............being blessed of god, god provided an additional rebuke for that generation of not acknowledging the promise of jesus in his name or by consequence of his testimony in a suicide pleasure controversy of dead flesh, and that is what humanity is.

So God called, Nguyen Van Lem, "Dead to Christ until the Baptism". And so his dead body was counted as a snare and a rebuke of that generation being both blind and dumb, for a controversy in man's accusation against god in dead flesh..........but all that meant nothing, he was already blessed...............and so as many in that day lived and died, some were blessed before their death unto the likness of the son of man, whoever he was, and jesus is also the son of man.

(the language is not written to the blind and dumb, and that is how humanity will die, but first if you are lucky you will see people die in mass from rabies, and this will go on permanently until humanity is altogether deceased.
 
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Marty fox

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The word rapture doesn’t occur in the Bible. Men use the term to mean the same thing Paul meant when we are caught up to meet Christ in the air. Now there has been a lot of debate on the timing of this event. Paul refers to it as happening at the last trumpet. To eliminate such a long debate study the scriptures and ask the Lord for understanding. All you are going to get here is debate. Leaving you with the option to choose the one that sounds the best.

I agree it is at the last trumpet and that the word doesn’t appear in the bible but the same meaning as you said does
 

marks

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Do we really need another anti-pre-tribulation-rapture thread? I could take the time to show you your fallacies, but it won't make any difference. So let's leave it at that.
In all the times I've demonstrated logical fallacies in people's assertions and arguments, I'm hard pressed to think of more than a few times when someone actually discarded that assertion or argument.

Much love!
 
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