What are we really dealing with here?

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bbyrd009

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Again...I still think perhaps you're confusing it all.
well, i agree the terms have been confused, yes
Every time you say Word, I think of Jesus, not the Spirit.
well, Spirit is Word too, only that has to be inferred, can't be Quoted i guess. God is Spirit. A couple other things are Word too, Gospel is Word. But i suggest that the Book is made into Word by those who seek Absolute Truth, and the confusion is manufactured
In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God
I've found the more I'm in the Word, the more I hear the Spirit.
But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth:
for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear
 
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bbyrd009

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But i suggest that the Book is made into Word by those who seek Absolute Truth, and the confusion is manufactured
In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God
their Bibles say "Holy Bible" on the cover, but they cannot Quote that, except in English,
Bible Search: Holy Scripture writings
Bible Search: Holy book
pick any one you want

i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock
find a Bible that does not say "Holy" on the cover imo.
Copeland solved that by just putting his name there, not sure i'd go that far
 
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bbyrd009

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SiT is a lesson in hearing imo
can't be found til you search OT
all kinda weird stuff supposedly goin on
confusion



i love how the focus is made out to be speaking in this context
hearing is never mentioned, artfully avoided by going right into interpretation
If anyone speaks in another tongue, there are to be only two, or at the most three, each in turn, and let someone interpret.

so, a literal subject change wherein hearing is again inferred, but interpretation is actually more speaking

and while hearing is alluded to in the OT, the focus is on lack of interpretation there
7Come, let Us go down there and confuse their language so that they will not understand one another's speech."
we are all speaking in tongues
 
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amadeus

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SiT is a lesson in hearing imo
can't be found til you search OT
all kinda weird stuff supposedly goin on
confusion

i love how the focus is made out to be speaking in this context
hearing is never mentioned, artfully avoided by going right into interpretation
If anyone speaks in another tongue, there are to be only two, or at the most three, each in turn, and let someone interpret.

so, a literal subject change wherein hearing is again inferred, but interpretation is actually more speaking

and while hearing is alluded to in the OT, the focus is on lack of interpretation there
7Come, let Us go down there and confuse their language so that they will not understand one another's speech."
we are all speaking in tongues

I like that..."we are all speaking in tongues" and included would be those who wrote the words down under inspiration from God [through or by the Holy Spirit] which are now called the Bible. It is one long message or group of messages in "unknown" tongues from God to man, but where is the interpreter? Can just any Tom, Dick or Harry read the Bible with God's understanding on every point? Could anyone or does anyone understand Jesus so well?

When we read the 4 gospels we see that Jesus did his own interpretation for who were receiving it in that moment via their physical ears... but what about for us who are simply reading the text today? Without an inspired interpreter we are in trouble,
are we not, according to what Paul wrote, which @bbyrd009 cited [If anyone speaks in another tongue, there are to be only two, or at the most three, each in turn, and let someone interpret.]

There are those who name it and claim it, but who among them is trustworthy? The Catholics say they are, but so do many of her daughters...! That is they say they have The correct interpretation.

Where did Jesus get what He spoke, which some listener then wrote down and men commonly called it the Bible or even the Word of God? [I would go more slowly about putting that second title to it as someone recent pointed out it has not been called that for so very long.]

"All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him." Luke 10:22

Ah then the Son will reveal Him, that is the Father, but what of the interpretation? Well is not the Son the Word?

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14

If we were to eat his flesh, [the written words really are dead on the pages, are they not?] and they were quickened [brought to Life] by the Holy Spirit [II Cor 3:6, John 6:53] in a person then would not that person not begin to understand or know Him [Jesus, the Word, and his Father from which the Word comes] better?


Would that not then be the interpretation desired? Simple for God, but perhaps not so simple to understand for someone who has not experienced it or...?
 

Naomi25

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In the book of revelation we are presented with a picture of a woman riding a beast. Throughout the Bible a woman is prophetically s symbol of the church. We see that in both old and new testaments. What we also see is that if the woman is somewhat loose in her morals, aka a harlot or an adulteress, she is representative of an apostate church. If a chaste or Pure woman, she is representative of God people.

Actually, no...the 'woman' in general is not the symbolic representation of the Church. The 'Bride' is. Other references to women of loose morals...harlots, prostitutes...they all refer to false religions and practices...or people who lead others into those false religious practices. But there is always a distinct and clear difference in scripture.

Beasts represent the state Power or government. The picture in revelation 17,18 is of a white riding a beast. The beast is clearly Satan's final manifestation of his own created earthly personna in state form. But Satan also craves worship. For that he needs a counterfeit church to deliver it. To enforce it he needs the state. Throughout history we have witnessed numerous examples of pagan powers that were unions of church and state. In fact, such an arrangement is classically pagan in character, because all pagan kings has at their right hand pagan priests advising, counseling, and directing state affairs. All those beast/powers in Daniel 7, Babylon, Medi-Persia, Greece, and Rome, were pagan church/state unions. The RCC inherited that very same characteristic. She is a union of church and state... The pope is a head of state as well as a religious ruler. That picture in revelation takes that to a global concept. The church, am apostate church, riding or controlling the government. This does not need to be direct dictatorial power, but if a church even just in an advisory mode recommending to the state that certain religious laws should be legislated and enforced, that is a union of church and state. Now in Europe we have the RCC strongly advising government's to pass Sunday laws. In the US we have a strong cartel of religious leaders advising Trump. What if Trump accepts certain counsel and re enacts the old Sunday blue laws... Would that not be the establishment of an image to the beast? (Revelation 13).

Cartel? That's a bit rich, don't you think? Now...you fear the possibility that America 'might' establish laws making it illegal to worship on anything but Sunday. But let me ask you this...if someone from your faith was guiding Trump, or in the White House, would you not push to have your view put into place? You believe that worshiping on Saturday is biblical...indeed, that worshiping on Sunday is a manifestation of the mark of the beast. Why wouldn't you do all that you could to undermine that?
For us...I can't see why we'd care what day people choose, or why anyone would want to establish law for it. We see scripture...Paul...telling us no one may tell us what day we can worship. So...from my point of view, it's more likely you...who believes Sunday worship to be a direct outworking of the Beast...to be the more imminent threat.

Sunday laws and the trinity were both established by force by the Roman church in the centuries following the time of Constantine. They were not established as a result of prayer and Bible study. Protestantism, when it grew to the extent it is today, has gone to great pains to defend those doctrines from scripture, but never from an unbiased view, but with the intention to justify a belief they inherited... Otherwise they would have to admit to surrendering to Roman authority.

Sigh. Go back to the post where I put some verses from Paul saying that no one has the right to judge others on the day we choose to worship. Christ freed us to do that. That includes you by, the way. You want to worship on Saturday, go for it. But quite apart from all this historical evidence for worship on the "Lord's Day"...as opposed to the "Sabbath"...as Jews, I think they'd know the difference, don't you? Quite apart from that, you'll have to refute Paul's blanket statement of freedom in regards to days of worship. Good luck with that.
Oh...and look, Rome didn't come into that at all!

ecumenism is admitting anybody and everybody... Hindus... Islam... Even Kenneth Copeland.
Yeah...I don't know about this...there's something wrong with this picture. The RCC is so strict in some of it's beliefs...still. And yet it's doing this. It doesn't jibe for me...something smells...I just don't know what...

I agree. I have never argued against Christ's divinity. Please consider the following carefully. By the way,i am a person who can be convinced of another way...I used to be a Trinitarian. It wasn't until I deliberately choose to study WHY that I changed my beliefs.
Jesus is the literal Son of God. Just as human children inherit certain traits from their parents, but imperfectly, so has Jesus inherited perfectly the loving compassionate merciful traits that originally inhered with the Father. The Son is a perfect representation of the character of God. In him is all the fullness of the godhead bodily. He is His Father's Son. And it is because He is His Father's Son that we can worship him as God.
Yeah...see, that just raises too many questions for me. And 'worshiping him as God because his Father's mantle rests on him', is far different from Christ actually being God in his own right.
You say he has "all the fullness of god" within him personally. To have that, you're talking about the characteristics of God as well. And those characteristics include eternality....existing from eternity past, to eternity future. We're also talking the Om's...Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent. Col 2:9 tells us that the "whole fullness of deity" dwells within him. The whole of it, as in, not missing any part of it. And we also know that everything was made through him (John 1:3)...indicating that he existed before Mary gave birth to him, and he also is "Creator God".
For me, these facts are just too much, the evidence too weighty.
 
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Naomi25

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@Naomi25

My story of the trinity….

Raised through middle grade school in a Catholic convent school. I never knew or realized there was a such a thing as a Trinity; never was taught it.

My Dad was a very loyal RCC. He never knew of the Trinity and would have practically shouted you out of room if you said such a thing. He believed God and Jesus were two distinct personalities and not part of any Trinity. I suspect many of his generation with a limited education believed the same thing.

I later was stunned when I went to my first protestant ‘church’ and heard the pledge or creed of loyalty spoke out loud. When I heard God of God etc. I stopped and said that’s not right and never went to that establishment again. I did the same for everyone I found with the same Trinity theory.

They I really discovered the RCC did indeed believe in a Trinity. I was always ignorant about it. I believe there are many, many RCC members that do not realize there is a Trinity, if really pressed to answer.

So, for about 30 plus years later and till today, I decided on which doctrine or teaching was true or not, without attending any ‘church.’

Just 4 years ago I was stunned to find out that there were two congregations that actually believed in at least 60 percent of the core doctrine and teachings that hold true. I never knew of them before. I do not belong to these groups, first because I do not attach to any group, and secondly because I have differences with their teachings as well. They believe that there are not any evil angels etc.no real Satan person, just our own evil from the heart. Need to seriously look this over. They also do not emphasis salvation assurance through grace. They emphasize 'staying in' Christ for salvation which is kind of mainstream anyway. They also over-emphasize full-emersion baptism as being very close to a critical step in salvation.

Anyway Naomi, I wonder if you went through a similar history as myself and never knew of a Trinity until at least into your twenties, would this man-made theory just jump out of scripture? I would bet at least odds of 10:1 it would not.

Someone and other people reinforced this and hard-wired it into your head (not intended to sound frightening), over the years and it stuck.

Bless you, (spelt it right this time)

APAK

I'm sorry, APAK, but it sounds to me like you are asking me if I've had "Someone and other people reinforced this and hard-wired it into your head"....but you've just admitted that you yourself have clung to an opinion you've had since your limited understanding as a child.

Let me flesh this out a bit. As a kid, you can't grasp a lot...or at least, not the really 'big' stuff. And the Trinity? That's about as complicated as it gets. So do we get taught about God the Father...separate person to....Jesus the Son....separate person to....the Holy Spirit. Yes. And yet we're told that they are all God. Not God's'...but God. One God. Now, at some point most kids are going to wonder about that...if they are seriously interested in their faith and in knowing God. Reading scripture they can see the three separate persons...often mentioned in the same passage, but listed separately (Matt 28:19, 2 Cor 13:14, Matt 3:16-17).
So...sometimes some of us just go on to blindly accept that teaching. Sometimes some of us find the idea interesting and study further, looking for the doctrine in scripture ourselves.

I'm not sure the direct path matters. Because what you've just written accuses us "Trinity" believers of doing nothing but believing what's been pushed at us...and yet you clearly admit you've done the same thing, just on the different side of the coin. You grew up believing one thing, and when confronted with the notion of something new, you abhorred it and have spent the next 'x' years avoiding or opposing teachings for it.
 
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Naomi25

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While your facts of history are spot on accurate, the Second Beast is indeed a "beast" and God's assigned meaning to that symbol is a "kingdom", not an individual (Daniel 7:23). Yes, Daniel 7:17 says "these great beasts, which are four, are four kings" but we know that this description does not limit the assigned meaning of "beast" to just an individual king for three reasons:
  • Verse 23 eliminates this possibility by expanding the description of a "beast" from "king" to "kingdom"
  • the Bible repeatedly uses the names of the kings when referencing their respective kingdoms
  • a king cannot exist without a kingdom
I wonder if you are aware that the symbolic reference of Revelation 2:10 "ye shall have tribulation 10 days" which refers not to just days (doesn't make sense that Jesus would speak of only 10 days tribulation to a church continuously in persecution), but 10 literal, horrific years of severe tribulation that can only refer to 303 A.D. to 313 A.D. under Emperor Diocletian...yet...tradition tells us the early church actually prayed for the preservation of the Roman Empire because they understood that once Rome fell, a far far worse "kingdom" would arise and make Rome's persecution of the church pale in comparison to what this next kingdom had in store - which was the Papacy. In a time when global populations were no where near our day, the mere thousands under Rome is nothing compared to what some estimate as 150 million deaths of "heretics" during the reign of the Papacy. So, using the prophetic timeline and tracing the existence of the First Beast from 538 - 1798, this Second Beast must arise sometime around 1798, and the description is unbelievably accurate of the U.S.

We all believe that Jesus is soon to return seeing that the condition of the world is such that for the first time technology is available to enforce Mark of the Beast control over everyone's lives, globalism is the end game of all the world's leaders, there exists the predicted overall absence of morality everywhere, and all around us we see unprecedented things like weather phenomenon, geological phenomenon, wars, rumors of it, disease, famines, etc. It just makes sense to me that in our day the most powerful apostate religious system and the nation with the only military industrial complex so powerful no other nation can hope to resist it - the Papacy and the United States - should be mentioned in prophecy.

Well...if this is all true...how you you suppose the RCC will impose themselves upon the American state? Liberalism being what it is today, and form of Christianity has had it's rights dropped to a level lower than what we've seen...well...probably ever, in the history of the nation. Do you really see...if things are as close to the end as you think...these two institutions merging together to form said unholy alliance?
 
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Naomi25

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hmm. well, when you see yourself as Esau, the story...comes to life :)
soup will become more like "red stuff" or something tho, red is the point @ "soup" almost surely

Yes...but, we're not Esau. That's the point. Like Jacob, we, although sinners, deserving nothing but punishment for what we've done, have still been shown favor and grace by God. If that doesn't make the story come alive for you, and you need to put yourself in the shoes of the 'vessel elected for destruction' then I suppose I just have to shake my head at you!
 
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Naomi25

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well, i agree the terms have been confused, yes

well, Spirit is Word too, only that has to be inferred, can't be Quoted i guess. God is Spirit. A couple other things are Word too, Gospel is Word. But i suggest that the Book is made into Word by those who seek Absolute Truth, and the confusion is manufactured
In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God

Absolute truth. You make it sound like a foolish thing. What is wrong with seeking truth? God is truth, and if it is his truth, then is it not absolute? What of those who rely just on 'Word' as you call it? Just the callings of the Spirit within. Haven't you seen how often vast differences are there, between the word received, depending on the person? Goodness...the way people can (and do) argue when they see black and white words on a page; it makes me shiver to think if the Church was to rely on nothing more than what you call "Word" and our own interpretation of him. That's why, even with the differences, we do hold on to our bibles, so we can line up what we hear from 'Word', with the word. And I'll thank you not to mock me, or those who see this book that God sent us, as an extremely important, and precious tool. So many people go on about how we 'revere' the bible too much. I mean, please. If it could be proven that God dropped a rock out of the sky, people would stick it up on a shiny alter where they could 'ohh' and 'ahh' at it. "Imagine...this came directly from God's hands!" Well...we don't have a rock...we have a whole book, and it tells us what he's thinking, what he's done in history, how he's saved us, what he'd like from us, and what he plans to do. That's worth some respect, yeah?

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. - 2 Tim 3:14-17


But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth:
for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear

See above.
 
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Phoneman777

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Lately, triggered liberals have sought to
Well...if this is all true...how you you suppose the RCC will impose themselves upon the American state? Liberalism being what it is today, and form of Christianity has had it's rights dropped to a level lower than what we've seen...well...probably ever, in the history of the nation. Do you really see...if things are as close to the end as you think...these two institutions merging together to form said unholy alliance?

Though it is not apparent on the surface, the world is run by members of "societies" with names like "Council on Foreign Relations", the "World Council of Churches", the "Trilateral Commission", etc. These organizations present themselves as being peopled by the "best" and "brightest" among us who meet to discuss how to solve the world's problems - this is nonsense. These organizations have but one goal, and that is working toward a New World Order in which there will exist a world govt., economy, and religious system, just like is mentioned in Revelation 18. These organizations are a front by which globalists gather to plot that which is necessary to bring this about. Connect the dots, follow the money, and this becomes evident. But, most people are either too lazy to research or too afraid of learning it's true, so they stop their ears, shut their eyes, pretend that what they're told on the news is reality, and ridicule the "conspiracy theorists" among them.

The Bible says that "Babylon" runs the show and is working with the "kings of the earth" against the will of God and the "merchants of the earth" form the third side of this Satanic union, to which the entire world will be forced to bow.

"Babylon" means "gate to God" and "confusion", which is so significant. Paganism is the ultimate exercise in futility for it is man confidently declaring there is another gate to God besides the one and only which God has prescribed - righteousness by faith in Him alone. "Babylon" in prophetic symbolism means "religious confusion" and the Papacy is Babylonian Sun Worship religion perfected. it is the modern day organization to which all religious systems of the world now look to and acknowledge as the system of global spiritual leadership with the Pope at its head.

Secret Societies control everything, and all secret societies are controlled by the Papacy. The United States is largely lead by Catholic sympathizers which appeals to Catholics and Protestants who are too afflicted with Stockholm Syndrome to recognize that the Papal "Counter-Reformation" was established to destroy Protestantism. Of course this sounds absurd to most Christians today, but the truth is that if the Protestant Reformers were alive today, they'd likely count Christianity at large today as devotees to the Pope simply by virtue of the fact that Protestantism is no longer protesting against what those great Christian men of old knew to be true - that the seat of Antichrist and all the Bible says about the issue is found right there in Rome.
 
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brakelite

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Just for your edification.....
Though Tyndale is known as the father of the modern Bible, there were numerous copies of the scriptures in Britain before Tyndale. These however were not derived from the corrupted Latin Vulgate, but from the Syriac or Peshitta translations of Lucian of Antioch. These formed the basis of the Cristian faith of such venerable Christians such as Dinooth, Aiden, Patrick, Columba and Columbanus of the Celtic church. Also the Waldensian Christians of northern Italy and southern France, as well as the Gaelic believers throughout Asia minor. The Christianity which came to these Celtic and Gaelic people was apostolic…it came direct from missionaries from Palestine and Syria, as did their scriptures, not from Rome, which by that time was slowly being corrupted by Origen, whose philosophies has been inculcated into Jeromes Bible, with Eusebius’ editorial help he also being a fan of Origen.

Also, it is mentioned by different authors such as Dr. Adam Clarke, who claim that the examination of Irish customs reveals that they have elements which were imported into Ireland from Asia Minor by early Christians. Since Italy, France, and Great Britain were once provinces of the Roman Empire, the first translations of the Bible by the early Christians in those parts were written in Latin. This is not the ‘high Latin’ which later became known only in academic circles, but ‘low Latin’, which throughout the early Roman Empire was the common language of the people. The early Latin translations were very dear to the hearts of these primitive churches, and as the Roman Church did not send any missionaries toward the West before 250 A.D., the early Latin Bibles were well established before these churches came into conflict with Rome. Not only were such translations in existence long before the Vulgate was adopted by the Papacy, and well established, but the people for centuries refused to supplant their old Latin Bibles by the Vulgate. “The old Latin versions were used longest by the western Christians who would not bow to the authority of Rome — e. g., the Donatists; the Irish in Ireland, Britain, and the Continent; the Albigenses, etc.”

What brought about Tyndale’s untimely demise could be attributed to two things. One, his constant objections and debates with local priests and bishops over Catholic superstitions, and two, the fact that the translation into English which he offered the people was deeply influenced by Erasmus, a student of the Greek NT and advocate for the line of manuscripts derived from the italic/Syriac Peshitta which the early church used as opposed to the Vaticanus which by then was exclusively Rome’s favourite. A Bible in the hands of the common people in their own language which exposed Rome’s deceptions and false doctrines was what brought about the English Reformation.
The commonly diffused Catholic argument that the Catholic Church “preserved the sacred scriptures for 2000 years” and that if not for the Catholic Church “we would not have a Bible” is patently false, a lie, and an attempt to establish a myth as fact. It is said by the RCC that it was in 400AD, or thereabouts, that the church got all the manuscripts together to form the “first Bible’. That also is a lie. Throughout Christendom, Bibles existed from the 2nd century and were carefully copied into the language of the day, the lower Latin, throughout the western Roman empire. They all were derived from Antioch, in Syria, where God’s people were first called Christians, and these Bibles or portions thereof were spread throughout the churches of Asia Minor, Persia, India, Europe and Britain. The later version of Rome, the Vulgate, was rejected by these churches as being inferior and corrupt…the older italic versions continued to be used so long as the lower latin language was spoken, upward of 1000 years….and in those lands where the Romans had no influence, it was kept in the languages of the local people, all without any influence, protection, or sponsorship or credit going to Rome at all.

It is sad but true that Catholics today are still only too ready to accept their church’s lies without any open and honest investigation into the facts of history, and are thus completely duped. It is time that Catholics woke up and realized that the reformation didn’t come about because some odd priest here and there started teaching heresy. The Reformation came about because after reading the actual scriptures for themselves instead of taking their teachers word for what they said, many very serious and highly educated Bible scholars discovered that it was Rome who was the true Antichrist of the Bible, began to ‘protest’ the truth of scripture and object to the ridiculous superstitions and heresies and false doctrines of their own church that the Bible patently contradicted. Seeking to “reform” the church they loved, they met with a brick wall and stubborn refusal to repent, and were forced out. Excommunicated, persecuted, and the majority killed. Along with their followers. Their writings burned. Their Bibles burned. Their homes destroyed. Their lands stolen. And thus was the “preservation of Biblical truth” applied by Mother. What is even more sad is the ease with which the Protestant churches which developed from these courageous founders, are returning to Mother, and thus fulfilling the prophecy which names them harlots. It is only one completely ignorant of scripture who could pretend that the Lutheran Federation and the Catholic Church now agrees 100% on justification by faith alone. Luther, if he weren’t now a small pile of dust, would be tearing his hair out.
 
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brakelite

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Yeah...I don't know about this...there's something wrong with this picture. The RCC is so strict in some of it's beliefs...still. And yet it's doing this. It doesn't jibe for me...something smells...I just don't know what...
upload_2018-4-22_15-43-53.png
 
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brakelite

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Cartel? That's a bit rich, don't you think? Now...you fear the possibility that America 'might' establish laws making it illegal to worship on anything but Sunday. But let me ask you this...if someone from your faith was guiding Trump, or in the White House, would you not push to have your view put into place? You believe that worshiping on Saturday is biblical...indeed, that worshiping on Sunday is a manifestation of the mark of the beast. Why wouldn't you do all that you could to undermine that?
For us...I can't see why we'd care what day people choose, or why anyone would want to establish law for it. We see scripture...Paul...telling us no one may tell us what day we can worship. So...from my point of view, it's more likely you...who believes Sunday worship to be a direct outworking of the Beast...to be the more imminent threat.
My church, for all its existence, has been one of the strongest advocates for religious freedom. Representatives from our church have spoken before the Senate/Congress in defence of religious liberty...why? Because religious liberty, freedom of conscience, is one of the most basic of human rights, a gift from God, a solely Protestant ethic which took a long time to learn (after European Protestantism continued the practice of persecuting dissenters as their Catholic forbears had done, American Sunday 'blue' laws were enforced for a time along with fines etc for those not attending services on Sunday). The problem is that many Protestants tody see no harm in a union f church and state, and we witness that forming before our eyes. The constitution Naomi s only as good as the Supreme court agrees with it. And if the SC is loaded with Catholics, and no Protestants, as is now the case, what chance when the *%^# hits the fan, does religious liberty really have?
There is a crisis coming the magnitude of which we have little comprehension. Jesus called it “distress of nations with perplexity”. There will be no answers, no solutions, no way out.

Remember 9/11? For a month or two after that everyone and their cocker spaniel went to church and confessed faith in ‘God’. And, to my personal horror, the US president decides to get up into the pulpit and proclaim from there, as if he was preaching a ‘godly Christian evangelical gospel message’...”he who is not with us is against us”. I got real angry at that. But on another level was not surprised. In the coming crisis we will witness the same again. Churches will be packed. The churches will unite together, and even with the government, in standing against a common threat.

The problem is that they will all be united, not on the basis of Biblical or doctrinal truth…not on the basis of a desire to share the gospel with the world…not on the basis of sharing the love of Jesus with their neighbours…but purely and simply out of self-preservation. Jesus said that the rulers will have no solutions, and everyone will be panicking. So they turn to religion. Not the religion taught in the Bible, but the religion taught on TV and espoused by the popular press and media. It will be a mixture of New age/Christ consciousness…apostate Protestantism…and Roman Catholicism. Ecumenist all-in-all-tolerant all-inclusive confusion of Babylon the Great. They will offer up prayers and make all manner of well meaning and pious pronouncements and a pretence of repentance and godliness while the crisis deepens, and when no answers come, will look around for someone to blame who hasn’t joined them in their sincere but hopeless charade. That someone who they will target will be those who refuse to worship their global church/state union and image of the medieval papal beast, and who refuse to accept the ‘mark’ of the beast’s authority. And my friend, this mark has nothing to do with fiscal convenience. It has everything to do with worship and loyalty to the true Creator God. The fiscal aspect…that is the buying and selling aspect…is merely an inducement to accept the mark. An inducement to worship according to the dictates of man. Other inducements will be fines, then jail, and finally the death sentence.
 

Naomi25

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Lately, triggered liberals have sought to


Though it is not apparent on the surface, the world is run by members of "societies" with names like "Council on Foreign Relations", the "World Council of Churches", the "Trilateral Commission", etc. These organizations present themselves as being peopled by the "best" and "brightest" among us who meet to discuss how to solve the world's problems - this is nonsense. These organizations have but one goal, and that is working toward a New World Order in which there will exist a world govt., economy, and religious system, just like is mentioned in Revelation 18. These organizations are a front by which globalists gather to plot that which is necessary to bring this about. Connect the dots, follow the money, and this becomes evident. But, most people are either too lazy to research or too afraid of learning it's true, so they stop their ears, shut their eyes, pretend that what they're told on the news is reality, and ridicule the "conspiracy theorists" among them.

The Bible says that "Babylon" runs the show and is working with the "kings of the earth" against the will of God and the "merchants of the earth" form the third side of this Satanic union, to which the entire world will be forced to bow.

"Babylon" means "gate to God" and "confusion", which is so significant. Paganism is the ultimate exercise in futility for it is man confidently declaring there is another gate to God besides the one and only which God has prescribed - righteousness by faith in Him alone. "Babylon" in prophetic symbolism means "religious confusion" and the Papacy is Babylonian Sun Worship religion perfected. it is the modern day organization to which all religious systems of the world now look to and acknowledge as the system of global spiritual leadership with the Pope at its head.

Well...I agree with you on those pushing for a Globalist agenda...there are certainly a lot of very powerful people pulling a lot of strings to try and make that happen (boy I bet Trump was a slap in the face).
But you lost me when you said "the Papacy is the modern day organization which all religious systems of the world now look to and acknowledge as the system of global spiritual leadership with the Pope at it's head."
Nope. Not even close. You may be able to show examples where 'a' Protestant or two have joined hands with them in an ecumenical spirit. And a few other religions. But when you look at the vast majority? Protestants reject them. Islam rejects them. The Jews reject them. Hindu's reject them. Heck, try every second person here on this site! Where are the 'secret' masses flocking to the RCC? Every time I turn around I see or hear someone bagging on it.

Secret Societies control everything, and all secret societies are controlled by the Papacy. The United States is largely lead by Catholic sympathizers which appeals to Catholics and Protestants who are too afflicted with Stockholm Syndrome to recognize that the Papal "Counter-Reformation" was established to destroy Protestantism. Of course this sounds absurd to most Christians today, but the truth is that if the Protestant Reformers were alive today, they'd likely count Christianity at large today as devotees to the Pope simply by virtue of the fact that Protestantism is no longer protesting against what those great Christian men of old knew to be true - that the seat of Antichrist and all the Bible says about the issue is found right there in Rome.

"Of course this sounds absurd to most Christians today"
I'm sorry, of course this sounds absurd. Because we come to the surface and breath real air. How about you come up for some too...sounds like you've been too far under for too long.

What was the quote..."It's Spaceball 1...she's gone to plaid..."
 
B

brakelite

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Sigh. Go back to the post where I put some verses from Paul saying that no one has the right to judge others on the day we choose to worship. Christ freed us to do that. That includes you by, the way. You want to worship on Saturday, go for it. But quite apart from all this historical evidence for worship on the "Lord's Day"...as opposed to the "Sabbath"...as Jews, I think they'd know the difference, don't you? Quite apart from that, you'll have to refute Paul's blanket statement of freedom in regards to days of worship. Good luck with that.
Oh...and look, Rome didn't come into that at all!
Look into the history of how easter got established as opposed to the passover. I am talking about the dates. Look into the history of what day the early church actually met. The apostolic church. Not the churches in Rome and Alexandria which early began to apostatize, but the church in Assyria...the Celtic church in Britain, Scotland and Ireland. The church in Ethiopia.
Yes, as Jews the apostles, and those who opposed them, knew exactly the difference between the Sabbath and the first day. Do you not find it curious how the ex-Judaic legalists who had been converted, had no problem whatsoever with the practices of the new faith except for one...circumcision! No complaints ever arose...no protests ever made...by anyone, that anyone was dishonouring the Sabbath. Why? Because they weren't!. The met every Sabbath. At first in the synagogues, and in house churches. Then as persecution arose, first from the Jews, then pagan Rome, then Papal Rome, that persecution was directed at in particular Sabbath keepers! In fact, one reason Christians discarded the Sabbath and began to meet on Sunday was to be seen as being different from the upstart Jews that the Romans hated. And the full establishment of Sunday into the church had everything to do with Rome.
The early Christians saw the Christian faith as a progression, not a new religion. Calvary gave the Sabbath new significance, but did not annul it. Christians were worshiping alongside Jews in the synagogues every Sabbath, but over a period of time Jews became less tolerant of this arrangement and the rabbis actually devised prayers that were to be said which exposed the Christians within the community. This made it very uncomfortable for Christians to continue meeting in the synagogues, but they did not forsake the Sabbath. They began to meet in their houses and in places like the riversides as Paul found in Thyatira. Eventually, Christians found it impossible to worship in the synagogues and about that same time found themselves questioning their connections to the Jews, and with good reason. Much conflict around the early second century between the Jews and Rome began to impact the church. Not wanting to be recognized by Rome as being sympathetic or in any way involved with the Jews, some Christians began to abandon the Sabbath in favour of Sunday, which became an attractive alternative.

At this time also Sun worship increased in popularity with Rome. Mithra was particularly popular with the military, and Sunday became increasingly significant throughout the empire. Constantine established the first Sunday law in 321ad, and the church of Rome adopted that day as its own. As late as the 5th century however there were still a majority of Christian churches that were still observing the Sabbath. The church leaders in Rome strongly encouraged resting on Sunday in accordance to the law, while at the same time imposing fasts and other strictures on the Sabbath. Councils such as that of Laodicea in the mid 4th century recognized the continuing popularity of the Sabbath observance, and instituted canons to further enforce Sunday and demote the Sabbath. Churches that abandoned the Sabbath altogether however were very much in the minority, as attested to by Socrates Scholasticus when he wrote in the 4th century “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.”

Despite theological arguments, anti-jewish prejudice, and empirical decrees, the Sabbath was still honoured well into the 5th century. It was not dead. In fact, the Sabbath issue became a greatly heated debate between popes and patriarchs throughout the ensuing centuries, and became a test of authority. Sunday became the sign of submission to papal authority, and was a major cause of the great rift within the Christian faith that remained for 900 years.

With that history in mind, let us forever lay to rest the idea that Jesus or the apostles, or the scriptures themselves for that matter, had anything to do with any change or annulment of the seventh day Sabbath. Let us, at least in this matter, agree with the Church of Rome that responsibility for such a change can be laid squarely upon her shoulders. For it was the leaders, the popes, cardinals and bishops of that church who down through the ages from the 3rd century to the present day deliberately exalted Sunday and erroneously named that day the Lord’s Day; meanwhile persecuting Sabbath keepers, labeling them, among other things as Judaisers and heretics, and have trampled upon the true Lord’s day and cast it aside.

It remains for the Christian today to “choose this day whom ye will serve”. It is for you friend to decide upon whose authority your faith is surrendered to. The Creator of the “heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and all that in them is” as written in the 4th commandment or the prelates and lawmakers of the Catholic church, the foster parents of the counterfeit day of rest and worship, the day of the Sun.
But I fully and without reservation agree with you that freedom of conscience (not scripture) demands all of us have the freedom to set aside whatever day we choose, join whatever church we choose, worship in whatever way we choose. And that is the reason I discuss prophecy. Because Revelation, and the shadow cast from Daniel 3, inform us that the day is fast approaching when such freedoms are going to be removed, notwithstanding the constitution.
 

Reggie Belafonte

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their Bibles say "Holy Bible" on the cover, but they cannot Quote that, except in English,
Bible Search: Holy Scripture writings
Bible Search: Holy book
pick any one you want

i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock
find a Bible that does not say "Holy" on the cover imo.
Copeland solved that by just putting his name there, not sure i'd go that far
The Bible is the Holy Bible, it's a Spiritual Book of Books, that only they who are born again can understand and Christians have faith in the word of God.

There are other bibles for your cars mechanicals etc etc.
 

Naomi25

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You see...here's my question. It's one thing to stand on a stage together and smile at the world and tell them they're working in harmony...blah, blah, blah.
But if anyone of those people changed his beliefs or habits, I'd need to some mighty decent proof for it.
It's all the 'rage' now, don't you see. Smile for the camera's, talk about hugging the trees, embracing humanity and one another, talk about how "much they have in common" (we're all human, so there's bound to be some). But when they walked away, did anyone change their practices, who they worshiped, what their rules where, how they made/collected money, their statements of faith...? I seriously doubt it. So how do we say, then, that other religions are collaborating with Rome? We can't...not without them shifting their doctrines and practices to fit Romes beliefs.
Or do you see posing for a pic as evidence alone?
 

Naomi25

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My church, for all its existence, has been one of the strongest advocates for religious freedom. Representatives from our church have spoken before the Senate/Congress in defence of religious liberty...why? Because religious liberty, freedom of conscience, is one of the most basic of human rights, a gift from God, a solely Protestant ethic which took a long time to learn (after European Protestantism continued the practice of persecuting dissenters as their Catholic forbears had done, American Sunday 'blue' laws were enforced for a time along with fines etc for those not attending services on Sunday). The problem is that many Protestants tody see no harm in a union f church and state, and we witness that forming before our eyes. The constitution Naomi s only as good as the Supreme court agrees with it. And if the SC is loaded with Catholics, and no Protestants, as is now the case, what chance when the *%^# hits the fan, does religious liberty really have?
There is a crisis coming the magnitude of which we have little comprehension. Jesus called it “distress of nations with perplexity”. There will be no answers, no solutions, no way out.

Remember 9/11? For a month or two after that everyone and their cocker spaniel went to church and confessed faith in ‘God’. And, to my personal horror, the US president decides to get up into the pulpit and proclaim from there, as if he was preaching a ‘godly Christian evangelical gospel message’...”he who is not with us is against us”. I got real angry at that. But on another level was not surprised. In the coming crisis we will witness the same again. Churches will be packed. The churches will unite together, and even with the government, in standing against a common threat.

The problem is that they will all be united, not on the basis of Biblical or doctrinal truth…not on the basis of a desire to share the gospel with the world…not on the basis of sharing the love of Jesus with their neighbours…but purely and simply out of self-preservation. Jesus said that the rulers will have no solutions, and everyone will be panicking. So they turn to religion. Not the religion taught in the Bible, but the religion taught on TV and espoused by the popular press and media. It will be a mixture of New age/Christ consciousness…apostate Protestantism…and Roman Catholicism. Ecumenist all-in-all-tolerant all-inclusive confusion of Babylon the Great. They will offer up prayers and make all manner of well meaning and pious pronouncements and a pretence of repentance and godliness while the crisis deepens, and when no answers come, will look around for someone to blame who hasn’t joined them in their sincere but hopeless charade. That someone who they will target will be those who refuse to worship their global church/state union and image of the medieval papal beast, and who refuse to accept the ‘mark’ of the beast’s authority. And my friend, this mark has nothing to do with fiscal convenience. It has everything to do with worship and loyalty to the true Creator God. The fiscal aspect…that is the buying and selling aspect…is merely an inducement to accept the mark. An inducement to worship according to the dictates of man. Other inducements will be fines, then jail, and finally the death sentence.

So...Your Church doesn't care if we worship on Sunday? You don't care that worshiping on Sunday is a sign of the Beast? I think this is an important issue to address. Because if you claim you want religious freedom, but really think everyone not under your banner is the enemy, how can I take your speculation on any of the rest without severe skepticism?
 
B

brakelite

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Yeah...see, that just raises too many questions for me. And 'worshiping him as God because his Father's mantle rests on him', is far different from Christ actually being God in his own right.
You say he has "all the fullness of god" within him personally. To have that, you're talking about the characteristics of God as well. And those characteristics include eternality....existing from eternity past, to eternity future. We're also talking the Om's...Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent. Col 2:9 tells us that the "whole fullness of deity" dwells within him. The whole of it, as in, not missing any part of it. And we also know that everything was made through him (John 1:3)...indicating that he existed before Mary gave birth to him, and he also is "Creator God".
For me, these facts are just too much, the evidence too weighty.
God alone is without beginning, yes? Yet John 1 tells us that at the earliest epoch when a beginning could be, a period so remote that to finite minds it is essentially eternity, appeared the Word. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." God alone is without beginning remember. Here is said that the Word, in the beginning, was with God...was God. ", and we read Jesus said in Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last". Again, consider John 1:1. "In the beginning". What beginning is John 1:1,2 speaking of? In the beginning was...what? Was it the beginning of the earth? No. Was it the beginning of creation? No. Why does it not refer to either the earth or creation? First, it doesn't say, therefore such a conclusion would be speculation. But second, verse 3 says "all things were made by Him". By who? By Him who was in the beginning with God. Therefore this beginning must be before creation. So "In the beginning was the Word" could just as easily read as "when the Word was, this was the beginning".
In Colossians 1:15 it says, "the firstborn of every creature". Can this refer to the incarnation? No, because verse 16 says "for by Him were all things created", the same teaching as John 1:3, and verse 17 says And He (the firstborn) was before all things".
Thus whatever beginning means, it cannot be the beginning of God the Father, because God has no beginning. It cannot be the beginning of creation, because the Word, and the Firstborn, were before creation. The ONLY conclusion to be drawn therefore, and without any undue speculation and guesswork, is that the beginning referred to in John 1:1 can only refer to the Son...begotten before the worlds were created, the only Son of the Living God.