What constitutes the Church?

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charity

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Hello @bbyrd009,

I am finding your terminology difficult to follow, I'm afraid, and am now confused regarding what you believe regarding these things.

Abbreviations are useful when you are talking to someone who understands them, but impossible for someone like myself, who is new to you, and the board generally.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Chris
 

VictoryinJesus

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In a thread I have been reading through today, the subject of what constitutes the Church came up, and there appears to be differing views concerning this. For my own part, I believe that the church being called out in this present time is that of (Eph 1:22-23)

'And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'


Do you think differently?

What constitutes the Church for me would be the proverbs woman. Christ is the proverbs woman. We(His body) make up the proverbs woman. It is not an individual...but a whole (Christ and her (the church)). I hear today individuals say they are called to stand in the gap...to stand in the breach or gulf that is sin. This fixed gulf is spoken of that separates the rich man from Lazarus(Spirit) in Abraham's bosom. We have been restored to the Father through the blood of the Lamb. There is already a body(whole) laid over that gulf...it is His. Our head which is Christ and His body.

Proverbs 31:7-31 KJV
[7] Let him drink, (of living waters)
and forget his poverty, (having treasure in heaven)
and remember his misery no more. (where He shall wipe away tears)
[8] Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. (Speak life)
[9] Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy. (Which our savior has done)
[10] Who can find a virtuous woman? (Jesus Christ because He has redeemed Her.)
for her price is far above rubies.
[11] The heart of her husband(the Lord)
doth safely trust in her(His body), so that he shall have no need of spoil. (as with the Pharisees)
[12] She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
[13] She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
[14] She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
[15] She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. (never to hunger or thirst again)
[16] She considereth a field, and buyeth it He did this) with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. (He did this)
[17] She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. (His strength, His arms)
[18] She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
[19] She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
[20] She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
[21] She is not afraid of the snow for her household: (his hand was leprous as snow/Miriam became leprous (white as snow)
for all her household are clothed with scarlet. (the blood of the Lamb, the crimsom worm that dieth)
[22] She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
[23] Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
[24] She maketh fine linen, and selleth it ;
and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. [25] Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. (Rejoice...boast in the Lord always)
[26] She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
[27] She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
[28] Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also , and he praiseth her. (the Beatitudes)
[29] Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
[30] Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord , she shall be praised.
[31] Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. (the work of the Spirit "in Christ" will praise Her(His body) in that narrow way)

(Matthew 25)
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat(spiritual and everlasting): I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink(waters of life flowing): I was a stranger, and ye took me into your household/brethren)
Naked, and ye clothed me(with fine linen): I was sick(broken), and ye visited me: I was in prison(captive in darkness), and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Many will say no it is all literal food and clothing to the poor and needy. Yes, to a point but it is also Spiritual. That treasure laid up in heaven where it can't be stolen or moth eaten. Our sight is set there, not here.
 
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charity

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quote a snip for me--where? imo is in my opinion, all the other very recent ones seem easier than it even, so ya, quote pls
Don'worry, @bbyrd009, I have read through it again, and think I now understand.

:)
 

bbyrd009

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charity

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What constitutes the Church for me would be the proverbs woman. Christ is the proverbs woman. We(His body) make up the proverbs woman. It is not an individual...but a whole (Christ and her (the church)). I here today individuals say they are called to stand in the gap...to stand in the breach or gulf that is sin. This fixed gulf is spoken of that separates the rich man from Lazarus(Spirit) in Abraham's bosom. We have been restored to the Father through the blood of the Lamb. There is already a body laid over that gult...it is His. Our head which is Christ.

Proverbs 31:7-31 KJV
[7] Let him drink, (of living waters)
and forget his poverty, (having treasure in heaven)
and remember his misery no more. (where He shall wipe away tears)
[8] Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction. (Speak life)
[9] Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy. (Which our savior has done)
[10] Who can find a virtuous woman? (Jesus Christ because He has redeemed Her.)
for her price is far above rubies.
[11] The heart of her husband(the Lord)
doth safely trust in her(His body), so that he shall have no need of spoil. (as with the Pharisees)
[12] She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
[13] She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
[14] She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
[15] She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. (never to hunger or thirst again)
[16] She considereth a field, and buyeth it He did this) with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. (He did this)
[17] She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. (His strength, His arms)
[18] She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
[19] She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
[20] She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
[21] She is not afraid of the snow for her household: (his hand was leprous as snow/Miriam became leprous (white as snow)
for all her household are clothed with scarlet. (the blood of the Lamb, the crimsom worm that dieth)
[22] She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
[23] Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
[24] She maketh fine linen, and selleth it ;
and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. [25] Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. (Rejoice...boast in the Lord always)
[26] She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
[27] She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
[28] Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also , and he praiseth her. (the Beatitudes)
[29] Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
[30] Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord , she shall be praised.
[31] Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. (the work of the Spirit "in Christ" will praise Her(His body) in that narrow way)

(Matthew 25)
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat(spiritual and everlasting): I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink(waters of life flowing): I was a stranger, and ye took me into your household/brethren)
Naked, and ye clothed me(with fine linen): I was sick(broken), and ye visited me: I was in prison(captive in darkness), and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Many will say no it is all literal food and clothing to the poor and needy. Yes, to a point but it is also Spiritual. That treasure laid up in heaven where it can't be stolen or moth eaten. Our sight is set there, not here.
Thank you for responding @VictoryinJesus

Yes, we are in Christ, at God's right hand in spirit.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

VictoryinJesus

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Thank you for responding @VictoryinJesus

Yes, we are in Christ, at God's right hand in spirit.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

My husband was speaking to a lady the other day; she runs a home for women addicted to drugs. This woman meantioned to him how she has always wanted to be the proverbs woman. She was upset saying she has failed. (Physically). We(women) have been taught that we have to strive to be that virtuous proverbs woman (physically). But We already are(men included) in Christ. The Spirit of wisdom. How many women do you know, does all those things listed physically? It is spiritual and runs consistently throughout the word. I know it sounds insane. Please consider it.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Hello @BreadOfLife,

Thank you for giving so many Scriptures as confirmation. Though I must respectfully disagree with your interpretation of 1 Tim. 3:15-16.

'But if I tarry long,
that thou mayest know
how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God,
which is the church of the living God, ---

--- the pillar and ground of the truth (.)
and without controversy great
is the mystery of godliness:
.. God was manifest in the flesh,
.... justified in the Spirit,
...... seen of angels,
........ preached unto the Gentiles,
.......... believed on in the world,
............ received up into glory.'

* The truth of Christ, (as, 'The mystery of godliness' described), is the pillar and ground of the truth, not the church itself. The punctuation of this verse, added by the translators, is not helpful here.

I also disagree with your final point. (quote)
- Jesus gave the Church supreme Authority on earth and whatever it ordains on earth is also ordained in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).

* In each of the Scriptures you have provided, it is either the twelve disciples, or the seventy chosen and equipped by God for the particular service they were called upon to perform. This does not apply to the church.

The church, is a called out company, an assembly, known of God, but largely unknown to one another.


Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
I'm sorry you disagree with 1 Tim. 3:15-16 but your rendering is incorrect.
Every translation puts the period at the end of verse 15, indicating that it is the CHURCH that is the pillar and foundation of truth - and not the "the mystery of godliness" in verse 16.

Finally - you're right about the Church being so vast that not everybody knows each other. BUT they belong to the ONE Church Jesus established - and not tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering sects teaching different doctrines. Jesus called His Church the light of the world - a city on a hill that cannot be hidden - a visible entity (Matt. 5:14-16).
 

BreadOfLife

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Hello again, @bbyrd009,

In responding to your post, I thought of something similar, which I thought would be worthwhile sharing with you.

'He saith unto them, "But whom say ye that I am?"
And Simon Peter answered and said,
"Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus answered and said unto him,
"Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona:
for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee,
That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church;
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."'

(Mat 16:15-18)

Here, it is the Truth concerning Christ, revealed to Peter by God the Father, ie., 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' which our Lord is referring to as, 'The Rock' upon which He would build His church. It is not Peter as some say. This is the same principle as that which I have been talking about regarding 1 Tim. 3:14-16.

It is the truth concerning the ascended and glorified Christ (the mystery of godliness), made known to Paul, and through Him to Timothy: that is the pillar and ground of the truth. This is the truth pertaining to the Church of the Living God. Which is not a man-made company, not visible to the eye of man at all, but known of God and precious. This is the church of the One Body of which Christ is the Head (Col.1:18).

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Gotta disagree with you again.

Simon was the "Rock" - not his confession of faith.
As you know, the Lord said to Peter, “And so I say to you, you are Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (Petra) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

You say that Peter is not the Rock but that the Rock refers to his confession of faith. It couldn’t be Peter because the Greek words used here are Petros, meaning, small stone and Petra, meaning, large mass of rock. Most non-Catholics say that the Rock is Jesus because he is referred to as Rock elsewhere, including, Matt. 21:42 and 1 Pet. 2:3-8. The problem with this is that Jesus didn’t speak Greek to his Apostles - he spoke Aramaic.

What Jesus actually said was, And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this rock Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

This is why St. Peter is referred to as "Cephas" in many of St. Paul’s letters, because Cephas is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic, Kepha.
 

charity

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My husband was speaking to a lady the other day; she runs a home for women addicted to drugs. This woman meantioned to him how she has always wanted to be the proverbs woman. She was upset saying she has failed. (Physically). We(women) have been taught that we have to strive to be that virtuous proverbs woman (physically). But We already are(men included) in Christ. The Spirit of wisdom. How many women do you know, does all those things listed physically? It is spiritual and runs consistently throughout the word. I know it sounds insane. Please consider it.
Hello there,

There is indeed, 'Victory in Jesus'. Praise God!

I will consider what you have said and I don't think it sounds insane. From my own experience I remember the feeling of absolute peace, when I realised that I had been 'accepted in the Beloved', and that I was now, in God's sight, Holy and without blame, because of what Christ Jesus, our risen Lord had achieved in His sacrificial death and resurrection.

I used to despair of ever being able to attain to the standard that the Scriptures portrayed, for I thought it was incumbent upon me to be Holy and without blame by my own effort. Which was impossible. To have the assurance that all had been accomplished by God in Christ for me, was beyond price.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

charity

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I'm sorry you disagree with 1 Tim. 3:15-16 but your rendering is incorrect.
Every translation puts the period at the end of verse 15, indicating that it is the CHURCH that is the pillar and foundation of truth - and not the "the mystery of godliness" in verse 16.

Finally - you're right about the Church being so vast that not everybody knows each other. BUT they belong to the ONE Church Jesus established - and not tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering sects teaching different doctrines. Jesus called His Church the light of the world - a city on a hill that cannot be hidden - a visible entity (Matt. 5:14-16).

'There is one body,
and one Spirit,
even as ye are called
in one hope of your calling; ... '

(Eph 4:4)

Hello @BreadOfLife,

We are in agreement my friend. There is only 'One Body', and individually and corporately they are a light of the world.

As to 1 Timothy 3:15, I am open to consider this further, but I believe that the meaning of verse 15:- 'the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.' - is shown in the next verse, in the 'great secret' - concerning Christ Mystical and not Christ Personal. This great Mystery is 'the Body of Christ', the House in which God dwells by His Spirit: the assembly of the saints peculiarly belonging to the living God, as purchased with the blood of the everlasting covenant: and this is the pillar and ground - the great foundation pillar of the truth, so specially revealed to Paul to make known among the Gentiles.

This is spoken of as, -
'the mystery of the faith' (1 Tim.3:9), and 'the mystery' which is 'confessedly great' (1 Tim. 3:16). This is the pillar, yes - the great foundation pillar of the truth: ie., Christ Mystical, as set out in verse 16.

'And without controversy
great is the mystery of godliness:
.. God was manifest in the flesh,
... justified in the Spirit,
...... seen of angels,
........ preached unto the Gentiles,
.......... believed on in the world,
............ received up into glory.'

(1 Tim. 3:16)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris





 
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charity

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Gotta disagree with you again.

Simon was the "Rock" - not his confession of faith.
As you know, the Lord said to Peter, “And so I say to you, you are Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (Petra) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

You say that Peter is not the Rock but that the Rock refers to his confession of faith. It couldn’t be Peter because the Greek words used here are Petros, meaning, small stone and Petra, meaning, large mass of rock. Most non-Catholics say that the Rock is Jesus because he is referred to as Rock elsewhere, including, Matt. 21:42 and 1 Pet. 2:3-8. The problem with this is that Jesus didn’t speak Greek to his Apostles - he spoke Aramaic.

What Jesus actually said was, And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this rock Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

This is why St. Peter is referred to as "Cephas" in many of St. Paul’s letters, because Cephas is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic, Kepha.

Hello again, @BreadOfLife,

I won't enter into debate on this. There is no doubt in my mind that it is the truth of the revelation of God to Peter, which He confesses, in response to our Lord's question, 'Whom say ye that I am?' (Matt.16:15), that was 'The Rock' upon which His church would be built, and not Peter.

I acknowledge the points you have raised, and have considered them myself to arrive to the conclusion that I have. (Romans 9:33, 1 Peter 2:8 and 1 Corinthians 10:4) included) It is 'The Truth' that is the stumbling block, and the rock of offence to some.

Thank you again,
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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BreadOfLife

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Hello again, @BreadOfLife,

I won't enter into debate on this. There is no doubt in my mind that it is the truth of the revelation of God to Peter, which He confesses, in response to our Lord's question, 'Whom say ye that I am?' (Matt.16:15), that was 'The Rock' upon which His church would be built, and not Peter.

I acknowledge the points you have raised, and have considered them myself to arrive to the conclusion that I have. (Romans 9:33, 1 Peter 2:8 and 1 Corinthians 10:4) included) It is 'The Truth' that is the stumbling block, and the rock of offence to some.

Thank you again,
In Christ Jesus
Chris
You won't debate it because it's a losing proposition. the Scriptures are clear on this matter.

You have to explain why Paul referred to Peter as "Cephas."
As a matter of fact - you will have to explain why WE refer to Simon as "Peter."

While you're at it - explain why the Early Church Fathers UNANIMOUSLY render Matt. 16:18 as Peter being the Rock on whom the Church was built.
 

BreadOfLife

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'There is one body,
and one Spirit,
even as ye are called
in one hope of your calling; ... '

(Eph 4:4)

Hello @BreadOfLife,

We are in agreement my friend. There is only 'One Body', and individually and corporately they are a light of the world.

As to 1 Timothy 3:15, I am open to consider this further, but I believe that the meaning of verse 15:- 'the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.' - is shown in the next verse, in the 'great secret' - concerning Christ Mystical and not Christ Personal. This great Mystery is 'the Body of Christ', the House in which God dwells by His Spirit: the assembly of the saints peculiarly belonging to the living God, as purchased with the blood of the everlasting covenant: and this is the pillar and ground - the great foundation pillar of the truth, so specially revealed to Paul to make known among the Gentiles.

This is spoken of as, -
'the mystery of the faith' (1 Tim.3:9), and 'the mystery' which is 'confessedly great' (1 Tim. 3:16). This is the pillar, yes - the great foundation pillar of the truth: ie., Christ Mystical, as set out in verse 16.

'And without controversy
great is the mystery of godliness:
.. God was manifest in the flesh,
... justified in the Spirit,
...... seen of angels,
........ preached unto the Gentiles,
.......... believed on in the world,
............ received up into glory.'

(1 Tim. 3:16)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Wrong.
As I stated before - every translation puts the period at the end of verse 15, indicating that it is the CHURCH that is the pillar and foundation of truth - and not the "the mystery of godliness" in verse 16.

Yours is just another opinion that further splinters the Church - to the tune of tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects who ALL teach different doctrines.
 

charity

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You won't debate it because it's a losing proposition. the Scriptures are clear on this matter.

You have to explain why Paul referred to Peter as "Cephas."
As a matter of fact - you will have to explain why WE refer to Simon as "Peter."

While you're at it - explain why the Early Church Fathers UNANIMOUSLY render Matt. 16:18 as Peter being the Rock on whom the Church was built.
@BreadOfLife:

'And he (Andrew) brought him (Simon) to Jesus.
And when Jesus beheld him,
He said,
"Thou art Simon the son of Jona:
thou shalt be called Cephas,
which is by interpretation, A stone."'

(John 1:42)

Hello B.O.L.,

Cephas is Aramaic, it occurs only in 1 Cor. 1:12; 3:22; 9:5; Galatians 2:9;
The interpretation is given to us, it means 'a stone' (Gr. Petros). A stone that is loose and movable.

'And I say also unto thee,
That thou art Peter, (Gr. Petros)
and upon this rock
I will build my church;
and the gates of hell
shall not prevail against it.'

(Mat 16:18)

'This rock' = Petra is feminine and therefore could not refer to Peter; but, if it refers to Peter's confession, then it would agree with homologia (which is fem.), and is rendered 'confession' in 1 Tim. 6:13, and 'profession' in 1 Tim. 6:12; Heb. 3:1; 4:14; 10:23, cp. 2 Cor. 9:13. Whether we are to understand it (with Augustine and Jerome) as implying 'thou hast said (it)', or 'thou art Peter', most Protestants as well as the ancient 'Fathers' agree that Peter's confession is the foundation to which Christ referred, and not Peter himself. He was neither the foundation nor the builder - (a poor builder, Matthew 6:.23) - but Christ alone, Whom he had confessed (1 Cor. 3:11).

The rock (Gr. Petra) a rock (in situ) immovable: the Messiah, as being 'the Son of the living God', Who is the foretold 'foundation stone' (Isa.28:16); and the 'rejected 'stone (Psa. 118:22).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ref: Bible marginal notes
 
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BreadOfLife

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@BreadOfLife:

'And he (Andrew) brought him (Simon) to Jesus.
And when Jesus beheld him,
He said,
"Thou art Simon the son of Jona:
thou shalt be called Cephas,
which is by interpretation, A stone."'

(John 1:42)

Hello B.O.L.,

Cephas is Aramaic, it occurs only in 1 Cor. 1:12; 3:22; 9:5; Galatians 2:9;
The interpretation is given to us, it means 'a stone' (Gr. Petros). A stone that is loose and movable.

'And I say also unto thee,
That thou art Peter, (Gr. Petros)
and upon this rock
I will build my church;
and the gates of hell
shall not prevail against it.'

(Mat 16:18)

'This rock' = Petra is feminine and therefore could not refer to Peter; but, if it refers to Peter's confession, then it would agree with homologia (which is fem.), and is rendered 'confession' in 1 Tim. 6:13, and 'profession' in 1 Tim. 6:12; Heb. 3:1; 4:14; 10:23, cp. 2 Cor. 9:13. Whether we are to understand it (with Augustine and Jerome) as implying 'thou hast said (it)', or 'thou art Peter', most Protestants as well as the ancient 'Fathers' agree that Peter's confession is the foundation to which Christ referred, and not Peter himself. He was neither the foundation nor the builder - (a poor builder, Matthew 6:.23) - but Christ alone, Whom he had confessed (1 Cor. 3:11).

The rock (Gr. Petra) a rock (in situ) immovable: the Messiah, as being 'the Son of the living God', Who is the foretold 'foundation stone' (Isa.28:16); and the 'rejected 'stone (Psa. 118:22).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ref: Bible marginal notes
We already covered this.
Jesus didn't speak Greek to Simon. He spoke Aramaic.

What Jesus actually said to Simon was "You are Kepha and upon this Kepha, I will build my Church. There is no distinction in Aramaic with Kepha. It simply means ROCK.
"Cephas" is simply the closest Greek transliteration of Aramaic "Kepha."

As for Petros and Petra, this distinction was made in the Greek ONLY to show that a man was being talked about.
To refer to Simon as "Petra" in the Greek would be tantamount to calling him "Patricia" instead of "Peter".

Protestant scholarship on this matter is OVERWHELMING . . .

1. There is no distinction between "petros" and "petra."
"In Aramaic 'Peter' and Rock are the same word; in Greek (here), they are cognate terms that were used interchangeably by this period."
--Craig S. Keener,The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, (Downer's Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1993), 90.

"Although it is true that petros and petra can mean 'stone' and 'rock' respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry."

--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.

"Many insist on the distinction between the two Greek words, thou art Petros and on this petra, holding that if the rock had meant Peter, either petros or petra would have been used both times, and that petros signifies a separate stone or fragment broke off, while petra is the massive rock. But this distinction is almost entirely confined to poetry, the common prose word instead of petros being lithos; nor is the distinction uniformly observed."

--John A. Broadus, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, (Valley Forge, PA: Judson Press, 1886), 355.

"I grant that in Greek Peter (Petros) and stone (petra) mean the same thing, save that the first word is Attic [from the ancient classical Greek dialect of the Attica region], the second from the common tongue."

--John Calvin, Calvin's New Testament Commentaries: The Harmony of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. 2, trans. T. H. L. Parker, ed. David W. Torrance and Thomas F. Torrance, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972), 188.

"The obvious pun which has made its way into the Gk. text as well suggests a material identity between petra and Petros, the more so as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the meanings of the two words."

--Gerhard Friedrich, ed., and Geoffrey W. Bromley, trans. and ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. VI, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1968), 98-99.

2. Two different Greek words are used because you can't use a feminine noun for a man's name.
"The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name."

--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.

"When using both the masculine and feminine forms of the word, however, Matthew is not trying to distance Peter, Petros, from 'this rock,' petra. Rather, the evangelist changes the genders simply because Simon, a male, is given a masculine form of the feminine noun for his new name."

--James B. Shelton, letter to the authors, 21 October 1994, 1, in Scott Butler, Norman Dehlgren, and Rev. Mr. David Hess, Jesus Peter and the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy, (Goleta, CA: Queenship, 1996), 23.

"The name Peter (not now first given, but prophetically bestowed by our Lord on his first interview with Simon (John 1:42), or Cephas, signifying a rock, the termination being only altered from petra to petros to suit the masculine appellation, denotes the personal position of this Apostle in the building of the Church of Christ."

--Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 1, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1983), 119.

"The most likely explanation for the change from petros ('Peter') to petra is that petra was the normal word for 'rock.' Because the feminine ending of this noun made it unsuitable as a man's name, however, Simon was not called petra but petros."

--Herman N. Ridderbos, Bible Student's Commentary: Matthew, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1987), 303.

"The feminine word for rock, petra, is necessarily changed to the masculine petros (stone) to give a man's name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form kepha would occur in both places)."

--R. T. France, The Gospel According to Matthew, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985), 254.
 

ScottA

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We already covered this.
Jesus didn't speak Greek to Simon. He spoke Aramaic.

What Jesus actually said to Simon was "You are Kepha and upon this Kepha, I will build my Church. There is no distinction in Aramaic with Kepha. It simply means ROCK.
"Cephas" is simply the closest Greek transliteration of Aramaic "Kepha."

As for Petros and Petra, this distinction was made in the Greek ONLY to show that a man was being talked about.
To refer to Simon as "Petra" in the Greek would be tantamount to calling him "Patricia" instead of "Peter".

Protestant scholarship on this matter is OVERWHELMING . . .

1. There is no distinction between "petros" and "petra."
"In Aramaic 'Peter' and Rock are the same word; in Greek (here), they are cognate terms that were used interchangeably by this period."
--Craig S. Keener,The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, (Downer's Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1993), 90.

"Although it is true that petros and petra can mean 'stone' and 'rock' respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry."

--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.

"Many insist on the distinction between the two Greek words, thou art Petros and on this petra, holding that if the rock had meant Peter, either petros or petra would have been used both times, and that petros signifies a separate stone or fragment broke off, while petra is the massive rock. But this distinction is almost entirely confined to poetry, the common prose word instead of petros being lithos; nor is the distinction uniformly observed."

--John A. Broadus, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, (Valley Forge, PA: Judson Press, 1886), 355.

"I grant that in Greek Peter (Petros) and stone (petra) mean the same thing, save that the first word is Attic [from the ancient classical Greek dialect of the Attica region], the second from the common tongue."

--John Calvin, Calvin's New Testament Commentaries: The Harmony of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. 2, trans. T. H. L. Parker, ed. David W. Torrance and Thomas F. Torrance, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972), 188.

"The obvious pun which has made its way into the Gk. text as well suggests a material identity between petra and Petros, the more so as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the meanings of the two words."

--Gerhard Friedrich, ed., and Geoffrey W. Bromley, trans. and ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. VI, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1968), 98-99.

2. Two different Greek words are used because you can't use a feminine noun for a man's name.
"The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name."

--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.

"When using both the masculine and feminine forms of the word, however, Matthew is not trying to distance Peter, Petros, from 'this rock,' petra. Rather, the evangelist changes the genders simply because Simon, a male, is given a masculine form of the feminine noun for his new name."

--James B. Shelton, letter to the authors, 21 October 1994, 1, in Scott Butler, Norman Dehlgren, and Rev. Mr. David Hess, Jesus Peter and the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy, (Goleta, CA: Queenship, 1996), 23.

"The name Peter (not now first given, but prophetically bestowed by our Lord on his first interview with Simon (John 1:42), or Cephas, signifying a rock, the termination being only altered from petra to petros to suit the masculine appellation, denotes the personal position of this Apostle in the building of the Church of Christ."

--Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 1, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1983), 119.

"The most likely explanation for the change from petros ('Peter') to petra is that petra was the normal word for 'rock.' Because the feminine ending of this noun made it unsuitable as a man's name, however, Simon was not called petra but petros."

--Herman N. Ridderbos, Bible Student's Commentary: Matthew, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1987), 303.

"The feminine word for rock, petra, is necessarily changed to the masculine petros (stone) to give a man's name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form kepha would occur in both places)."

--R. T. France, The Gospel According to Matthew, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985), 254.
With "all language" there is confusion.

But given the choice which Christ gave, whether to choose to build upon and follow Peter or upon the spirit of God (both being part to Christ's statement), we each choose to follow the flesh or the spirit of God, according to our kind.

So we have chosen, and so shall it be.
 
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charity

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We already covered this.
Jesus didn't speak Greek to Simon. He spoke Aramaic.

What Jesus actually said to Simon was "You are Kepha and upon this Kepha, I will build my Church. There is no distinction in Aramaic with Kepha. It simply means ROCK.
"Cephas" is simply the closest Greek transliteration of Aramaic "Kepha."

As for Petros and Petra, this distinction was made in the Greek ONLY to show that a man was being talked about.
To refer to Simon as "Petra" in the Greek would be tantamount to calling him "Patricia" instead of "Peter".

Protestant scholarship on this matter is OVERWHELMING . . .

1. There is no distinction between "petros" and "petra."
"In Aramaic 'Peter' and Rock are the same word; in Greek (here), they are cognate terms that were used interchangeably by this period."
--Craig S. Keener,The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, (Downer's Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1993), 90.

"Although it is true that petros and petra can mean 'stone' and 'rock' respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry."

--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.

"Many insist on the distinction between the two Greek words, thou art Petros and on this petra, holding that if the rock had meant Peter, either petros or petra would have been used both times, and that petros signifies a separate stone or fragment broke off, while petra is the massive rock. But this distinction is almost entirely confined to poetry, the common prose word instead of petros being lithos; nor is the distinction uniformly observed."

--John A. Broadus, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, (Valley Forge, PA: Judson Press, 1886), 355.

"I grant that in Greek Peter (Petros) and stone (petra) mean the same thing, save that the first word is Attic [from the ancient classical Greek dialect of the Attica region], the second from the common tongue."

--John Calvin, Calvin's New Testament Commentaries: The Harmony of the Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. 2, trans. T. H. L. Parker, ed. David W. Torrance and Thomas F. Torrance, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972), 188.

"The obvious pun which has made its way into the Gk. text as well suggests a material identity between petra and Petros, the more so as it is impossible to differentiate strictly between the meanings of the two words."

--Gerhard Friedrich, ed., and Geoffrey W. Bromley, trans. and ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. VI, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1968), 98-99.

2. Two different Greek words are used because you can't use a feminine noun for a man's name.
"The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name."

--Frank E. Gaebelein, ed., The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.

"When using both the masculine and feminine forms of the word, however, Matthew is not trying to distance Peter, Petros, from 'this rock,' petra. Rather, the evangelist changes the genders simply because Simon, a male, is given a masculine form of the feminine noun for his new name."

--James B. Shelton, letter to the authors, 21 October 1994, 1, in Scott Butler, Norman Dehlgren, and Rev. Mr. David Hess, Jesus Peter and the Keys: A Scriptural Handbook on the Papacy, (Goleta, CA: Queenship, 1996), 23.

"The name Peter (not now first given, but prophetically bestowed by our Lord on his first interview with Simon (John 1:42), or Cephas, signifying a rock, the termination being only altered from petra to petros to suit the masculine appellation, denotes the personal position of this Apostle in the building of the Church of Christ."

--Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 1, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1983), 119.

"The most likely explanation for the change from petros ('Peter') to petra is that petra was the normal word for 'rock.' Because the feminine ending of this noun made it unsuitable as a man's name, however, Simon was not called petra but petros."

--Herman N. Ridderbos, Bible Student's Commentary: Matthew, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1987), 303.

"The feminine word for rock, petra, is necessarily changed to the masculine petros (stone) to give a man's name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form kepha would occur in both places)."

--R. T. France, The Gospel According to Matthew, (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985), 254.
@BreadOfLife

Thank you for the extra reading.

You mention 'kepha', the Aramaic word translated, 'Cephas' in John 1:42: It is H03710 (Strongs No) and is used by the Holy Spirit in two places in the Old Testament: in Job 30:6 and in Jeremiah 4:29. In both cases the context refers to the finding of a hiding place among the rocks. The word kepha meaning a hollow rock, therefore suitable for hiding among, being light and insubstantial.

Peter was so called not because of firmness of character, but the reverse. Peter was an Elder in the Church (1Peter 5:1), and he was the Apostle who, of all others, teaches so clearly that Christ is the Rock on which His church was built.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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epostle1

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@BreadOfLife

Thank you for the extra reading.

You mention 'kepha', the Aramaic word translated, 'Cephas' in John 1:42: It is H03710 (Strongs No) and is used by the Holy Spirit in two places in the Old Testament: in Job 30:6 and in Jeremiah 4:29. In both cases the context refers to the finding of a hiding place among the rocks. The word kepha meaning a hollow rock, therefore suitable for hiding among, being light and insubstantial.

Peter was so called not because of firmness of character, but the reverse. Peter was an Elder in the Church (1Peter 5:1), and he was the Apostle who, of all others, teaches so clearly that Christ is the Rock on which His church was built.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
This is completely contrary to an army of Protestant scholars who author bible reference manuals. Shall I add to BofL list?
 
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