What distinguishes a "Protestant?"

[farouk]

This is correct. Not all non-Catholics are automatically Protestants. And there were plenty of non-Catholic churches even while the Reformers were repudiating Catholicism. For example the Waldensians (Vaudois) were non-Catholics in the 12th century, and there were many other groups similar to them scattered all over. At the same time, the Waldensians made common cause with the Reformers.

In English church history this finds its corollary in that many of the Lollards were subsequently regarded as precursors to the Reformation Protestants - Wycilffe was Master of Balliol, for example. In assessing early 16th century Protestantism, it is somewhat a moot point as to whether late Lollards were in fact early Protestants; John Foxe indeed cites Lollards sympathetically. However, the later, post-1662 Nonconformists - and even perhaps the 16th century Brownists - tended to regard Wycliffe and the Lollards as precursors of Nonconformity.

North American Fundamentalists - insofar as they are historically-minded at all - can thus find accounts of Lollards and the reception of their thought and claimed significance by various, diverse English Christian writers, somewhat confusing in terms of where they really belong in the historical scheme of things.

L. Verduin's The Reformers and Their Stepchildren, Eerdmans, is a useful resource.

 

[Willie T]

Several of you will enjoy this guy who wrote some fascinating books about this subject (as well as others.)

 

[Josiah]

Can we just point out what we think is the primary thing that distinguishes one as a Protestant?
I'll start. I say a Protestant is one who believes the Bible can be read and understood by ordinary people..... and should be.

I disagree.

In fact, I think one of the hallmarks of Protestantism is the PROTEST of that, the repudiation that one person, church, denomination, sect, cult can simply designate SELF alone as the sole, authoritative, infallible, unaccountable interpreter of Scripture.... it was one of Luther and Calvin's major objections to the Roman Catholic Church which insisted that the singular, individual RCC is THE authoritative, infallible, unaccountable interpreter and thus whatever IT itself currently says the Bible MEANS is therefore what it does, for when it itself speaks ergo God is. Luther stressed that the Bible is God's word for the WHOLE church - together. Individualism and egoism was condemned by the Reformers.


I think the most important marks of Protestantism are...


1. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. In justification (narrow or initial) Jesus is the Savior. Jesus - not self, not now or ever, not 100% or 0.001% It is the repudiation of Pelagianism and synergism in this matter. The repudiation of Jesus only as a possibility-maker, door-opener, teacher, inspiration, example but as THE SAVIOR. It's not Jesus and me, it's just Jesus for there is no other name under heaven by which any may be saved (and that includes our own name). The RCC and Luther and Calvin all agreed THIS was the major issue of the Reformation.


2. Ecclesiology. The church is the whole corpus of all believers, the "one holy catholic church - the community of believers." All believers, past and present. The church is not one specific denomination (whether the RCC or LDS or any other). Protestants have nothing against congregations or denominations (nearly all Protestants are in such) BUT no geopolitical, economic, legal denominational entity is The Church in any sense. The RCC insists that IT (as a denomination) IS THE Church (at least in fullness). And on this is based all its egotistical, individual claims of self for self. Protestants say, "It's not Jesus and ME, it's Jesus and WE." The church is not some denomination we must identify, it's US.... all of us.... together... as one family, one oikos.... one body... with Jesus as the head (He never resigned).


3. Epistemology. Protestants look to the objective, written, inspired WORDS on the page of the Bible as the norma normans for the evaluation of dogmas ("Sola Scriptura") - rejecting that if self says self alone is infallible/unaccountable, thus self alone is... if self speaks, ergo God is speaking. Protestants reject the idea that the Norm/Rule is simply the views of self, so if self agrees with self then self is right. Some hold that this was actually the "deal breaker" in the Reformation. the one thing the RCC could not permit. Note: Protestantism does NOT reject the role of Tradition - only that such is under Scripture not equal to it or above it (as the RCC insists). And Protestantism does NOT say that the individual PERSON is the interpreter rather than and individual DENOMINATION. Protestantism embraces accountability..... whereas the RCC itself exempted one, itself. When a Protestant does the same thing, they are repudiating Protestantism.



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

 

[farouk]

I disagree.

In fact, I think one of the hallmarks of Protestantism is the PROTEST of that, the repudiation that one person, church, denomination, sect, cult can simply designate SELF alone as the sole, authoritative, infallible, unaccountable interpreter of Scripture.... it was one of Luther and Calvin's major objections to the Roman Catholic Church which insisted that the singular, individual RCC is THE authoritative, infallible, unaccountable interpreter and thus whatever IT itself currently says the Bible MEANS is therefore what it does, for when it itself speaks ergo God is. Luther stressed that the Bible is God's word for the WHOLE church - together. Individualism and egoism was condemned by the Reformers.


I think the most important marks of Protestantism are...


1. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. In justification (narrow or initial) Jesus is the Savior. Jesus - not self, not now or ever, not 100% or 0.001% It is the repudiation of Pelagianism and synergism in this matter. The repudiation of Jesus only as a possibility-maker, door-opener, teacher, inspiration, example but as THE SAVIOR. It's not Jesus and me, it's just Jesus for there is no other name under heaven by which any may be saved (and that includes our own name). The RCC and Luther and Calvin all agreed THIS was the major issue of the Reformation.


2. Ecclesiology. The church is the whole corpus of all believers, the "one holy catholic church - the community of believers." All believers, past and present. The church is not one specific denomination (whether the RCC or LDS or any other). Protestants have nothing against congregations or denominations (nearly all Protestants are in such) BUT no geopolitical, economic, legal denominational entity is The Church in any sense. The RCC insists that IT (as a denomination) IS THE Church (at least in fullness). And on this is based all its egotistical, individual claims of self for self. Protestants say, "It's not Jesus and ME, it's Jesus and WE." The church is not some denomination we must identify, it's US.... all of us.... together... as one family, one oikos.... one body... with Jesus as the head (He never resigned).


3. Epistemology. Protestants look to the objective, written, inspired WORDS on the page of the Bible as the norma normans for the evaluation of dogmas ("Sola Scriptura") - rejecting that if self says self alone is infallible/unaccountable, thus self alone is... if self speaks, ergo God is speaking. Protestants reject the idea that the Norm/Rule is simply the views of self, so if self agrees with self then self is right. Some hold that this was actually the "deal breaker" in the Reformation. the one thing the RCC could not permit. Note: Protestantism does NOT reject the role of Tradition - only that such is under Scripture not equal to it or above it (as the RCC insists). And Protestantism does NOT say that the individual PERSON is the interpreter rather than and individual DENOMINATION. Protestantism embraces accountability..... whereas the RCC itself exempted one, itself. When a Protestant does the same thing, they are repudiating Protestantism.



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

I like Chillingworth's statement: "The Bible and the Bible alone is the religion of Protestants".

 

[CoreIssue]

I like Chillingworth's statement: "The Bible and the Bible alone is the religion of Protestants".

What denomination does that? None.

 

[farouk]

What denomination does that? None.

It's not a matter of denominationalism. It's a matter of the individual's understanding of God's Word.

 

[CoreIssue]

It's not a matter of denominationalism. It's a matter of the individual's understanding of God's Word.

And why I am neither Catholic or Protestant.

 

[farouk]

And why I am neither Catholic or Protestant.

One does not have to use the word Protestant; from a historical perspective, there have been those who have looked to the Bible alone and those who have not.

 

[CoreIssue]

Protestant carries denominational meaning.

 

[farouk]

Protestant carries denominational meaning.

It certainly can do; but as a general descriptive word it has also proved useful historically in relation to what people's attitudes to the Word of God are (even though today a huge range of error may be held by those who are nominally Protestant).

 

[CoreIssue]

It certainly can do; but as a general descriptive word it has also proved useful historically in relation to what people's attitudes to the Word of God are (even though today a huge range of error may be held by those who are nominally Protestant).

For history, yes. But not today.

 

[farouk]

For history, yes. But not today.

I do think that for today, to distinguish those who choose to get involved in ecumenical activities with Rome and those who for Biblical reasons do not, people might find the term 'Protestant' useful also.

 

[CoreIssue]

I do think that for today, to distinguish those who choose to get involved in ecumenical activities with Rome and those who for Biblical reasons do not, people might find the term 'Protestant' useful also.

But a lot of apostate churches are Protestant.

I think just being Christian opens a lot more doors for conversation.

 

[farouk]

But a lot of apostate churches are Protestant.

I agree.

I think just being Christian opens a lot more doors for conversation.

I agree.

It's just good for people to have a historical perspective also, to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past, when professing Christendom has strayed from the Word.

 

[CoreIssue]

I agree.


I agree.

It's just good for people to have a historical perspective also, to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past, when professing Christendom has strayed from the Word.

History is very important. You never get me to say otherwise.

 

[CoreIssue]

Can anyone name a denomination that was part of the historical Protestant movement that is not apostate now?

 

[Dave L]

Can anyone name a denomination that was part of the historical Protestant movement that is not apostate now?

Quite a few of the Reformed Churches remain true. Some of the Presbyterians caved but some others remain true churches.

 

[CoreIssue]

Quite a few of the Reformed Churches remain true. Some of the Presbyterians caved but some others remain true churches.

Names please.

 

[Josiah]

It's a matter of the individual's understanding of God's Word.

Actually, that's exactly one of the primary things Protestantism protests.... One of the PRIMARY issues of Luther and Calvin was the RCC insisting that Truth is a matter of the individual's understanding (self looking to self).


I posted above...

I think the most important marks of Protestantism are...


1. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. In justification (narrow or initial) Jesus is the Savior. Jesus - not self, not now or ever, not 100% or 0.001% It is the repudiation of Pelagianism and synergism in this matter. The repudiation of Jesus only as a possibility-maker, door-opener, teacher, inspiration, example but as THE SAVIOR. It's not Jesus and me, it's just Jesus for there is no other name under heaven by which any may be saved (and that includes our own name). The RCC and Luther and Calvin all publicly stated THIS was the major issue of the Reformation, Luther and Calvin both noted THIS is the hallmark of Protestantism.


2. Ecclesiology. The church is the whole corpus of all believers, the "one holy catholic church - the community of believers." All believers, past and present. The church is not one specific denomination (whether the RCC or LDS or any other). Protestants have nothing against congregations or denominations (nearly all Protestants are in such) BUT no geopolitical, economic, legal denominational entity is The Church in any sense. The RCC insists that IT (as a denomination) IS THE Church (at least in fullness). And on this is based all its egotistical, individual claims of self for self. Protestants say, "It's not Jesus and ME, it's Jesus and WE." The church is not some denomination we must identify, it's US.... all of us.... together... as one family, one oikos.... one body... with Jesus as the head (He never resigned). All the emphasis on SELF is a repudiation of this Protestant principle and a return to Rome.


3. Epistemology. Protestants look to the objective, written, inspired WORDS on the page of the Bible as the norma normans for the evaluation of dogmas ("Sola Scriptura") - rejecting that if self says self alone is infallible/unaccountable, thus self alone is... if self speaks, ergo God is speaking. Protestants reject the idea that the Norm/Rule is simply the views of self, so if self agrees with self then self is right. Some hold that this was actually the "deal breaker" in the Reformation. the one thing the RCC could not permit. Note: Protestantism does NOT reject the role of Tradition - only that such is under Scripture not equal to it or above it (as the RCC insists). And Protestantism does NOT say that the individual PERSON is the interpreter rather than and individual DENOMINATION. Protestantism embraces accountability..... whereas the RCC itself exempted one, itself. When a Protestant does the same thing, they are repudiating Protestantism.



Thank you.


.

 

[farouk]

Actually, that's exactly one of the primary things Protestantism protests.... One of the PRIMARY issues of Luther and Calvin was the RCC insisting that Truth is a matter of the individual's understanding (self looking to self).

I mean, the individual led of the Spirit through the Word, as opposed to deferring to some hierarchy.