1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

what do we believe about penance??

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Letsgofishing, Dec 3, 2007.

  1. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    And No where in scripture does God say you need a priest between you and God Where and when and why did the church insitute this practice??
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    (kriss;25710)
    And No where in scripture does God say you need a priest between you and God Where and when and why did the church insitute this practice??
    Correct Kriss, nowhere in the Word of God says that. But the other hand, the politically-correct bible surely does say that though.JagLovest ye in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  3. Lunar

    Lunar New Member

    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    0
    (thesuperjag;25045)
    Penace is difinately NOT in the bible. And actions to apologizefor our sins (with penace) in difinately so wrong.Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.The whole point here is to NEVER add works unto salvation. As I said penace is not in the bible. It is men's invention and doctrine.Jag
    That is Paul's view, most certainly, but I think some other authors in the Bible might have thought differently.James 1:22-25: " 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."James 2:14-25: " 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
     
  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    (Lunar;25720)
    (thesuperjag;25045)
    Penace is difinately NOT in the bible. And actions to apologizefor our sins (with penace) in difinately so wrong.Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.The whole point here is to NEVER add works unto salvation. As I said penace is not in the bible. It is men's invention and doctrine.Jag
    That is Paul's view, most certainly, but I think some other authors in the Bible might have thought differently.James 1:22-25: " 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."James 2:14-25: " 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[a]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."Actually James and Paul are both correct as they don't disagree with each as there is no contradictions in these verses. Paul is dealing with that we should NEVER add works unto salvation, since Christ alone is our salvation. James was speaking of FAITH without WORKS is DEAD. This has nothing to do with salvational issue. Works are just an extention of our Faith. God only did one work, and that is Truth. [​IMG] So we must work to preach Truth to others.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  5. Lunar

    Lunar New Member

    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    0
    (thesuperjag;25728)
    Actually James and Paul are both correct as they don't disagree with each as there is no contradictions in these verses. Paul is dealing with that we should NEVER add works unto salvation, since Christ alone is our salvation. James was speaking of FAITH without WORKS is DEAD. This has nothing to do with salvational issue. Works are just an extention of our Faith. God only did one work, and that is Truth. [​IMG] So we must work to preach Truth to others.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    I disagree, thesuperjag. Note 2:14 in particular - he specifically brings up the issue of salvation. "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" This seems to be very explicit on James' behalf. He is clearly arguing that someone cannot be saved through faith alone.
     
  6. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    (Lunar;25730)
    (thesuperjag;25728)
    Actually James and Paul are both correct as they don't disagree with each as there is no contradictions in these verses. Paul is dealing with that we should NEVER add works unto salvation, since Christ alone is our salvation. James was speaking of FAITH without WORKS is DEAD. This has nothing to do with salvational issue. Works are just an extention of our Faith. God only did one work, and that is Truth. [​IMG] So we must work to preach Truth to others.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    I disagree, thesuperjag. Note 2:14 in particular - he specifically brings up the issue of salvation. "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?" This seems to be very explicit on James' behalf. He is clearly arguing that someone cannot be saved through faith alone.And tell me, what good is it for Faith to add works on top of Christ unto salvation? We are saved by Grace, not of works.Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
     
  7. Lunar

    Lunar New Member

    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    0
    (thesuperjag;25738)
    And tell me, what good is it for Faith to add works on top of Christ unto salvation? We are saved by Grace, not of works.Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    Right, that is what Paul says. But that doesn't explain how it can coexist with what James says.
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    (Lunar;25742)
    (thesuperjag;25738)
    And tell me, what good is it for Faith to add works on top of Christ unto salvation? We are saved by Grace, not of works.Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
    Right, that is what Paul says. But that doesn't explain how it can coexist with what James says.And you never answered my question. What good is it for Faith to add works on top of Christ unto salvation?Jag
     
  9. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

    Messages:
    416
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Lunar,James was bout believers abusing their faithsaying in getting out of helping the poor. If you take the whole book in context to its respective topic within, you will find that these believers were treating the rich with favoritism and ignoring the poor. They even went so far as to send them away without sharing any of the provisions that was collected, issuing their faith to the poor by saying, "Be warm and be filled" as if they are issuing faith towards God for them to be healed and to be whole. It is that abuse James was addressing. The proof is in the words. Faith cannot profit the faithsayer. In grammarical usage, the words are referring to the profit of the poor. The same is applied in "can faith save him?" Save who? The poor. Profit and save is being directed to the poor in that the faithsayers are issuing their faith to the por to be warm and to be filled, but in the eyes of the poor, the faith of the faithsayers are dead because they had collected provisions and yet care not to meet their needs to have faith that God will provide for them for tomorrow as well. The faithsayers were just issuing faith to get out of showing love to the poor. Thus the rebuke is needed so that they could not stand behind that non applied faith when they are not willing to provide from what was collected that God has provided for the church to give to those in need. There were other corrections in there.. even other abuse towards the poor, but the faith without works is about the abuse of the faithsayers towards the poor in getting out of showing love towards the poor in meeting their needs for they were naked to the elements and starving.So saving faith in Jesus of oneself still stands apart from works. It is the abuse of the faithsayers in issuing their faith of God's Providence without applying it themselves by works which was dead to the poor for not meeting their needs.
     
Loading...