What do you believe is the fate of elite, evil, Christians?

[Patrick1966]

Let's say that there is an American president that claims to be a believer in Christ but demonstrates by his fruits that he does not do the will of Jesus. Let's say that this president has made a career in "public service" and has been taking bribes for decades. And let's say that this president has a scandalous history of being a chronic liar on all things big and small. And let's say that this president has sold out his people to special interests and to foreign interests in order to enrich himself and his family and friends. And let's say that this president dies unconfessed and unrepentant. What do believe is his fate?

Here's my guess. He is saved by the grace of Jesus but his Heavenly reward will be that he will be a humble servant to other Christians who were actually faithful Christians in life. He will remain a humble servant for a long time and will greatly regret his foolish and sinful choices in his short life on Earth.

The following verses compel me to believe that unfaithful Christians will be saved but their "reward" will be much less than the rewards given to faithful Christians.

Proverbs 22:16
English Standard Version
Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.​

Matthew 19:16-30

English Standard Version

​

The Rich Young Man​

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,[a] when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold[b] and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

 

[Pearl]

People can call themselves whatever they want but it should be obvious to those who are true Christians and have discernment to be able to tell if somebody who calls themselves a Christian really is born again. And whatever they say about themselves god is not fooled and they will experience the same fate as all other non-Christians.

Saying you are a Christian doesn't make you one. Only being truly re-born can do that.

 

[Scott Downey]

We are warned about following false Christs, that MANY will be deceived. Those people are not saved, they believe in a false Christ, not the genuine article.

I can call myself Jesus Christ and pretend to be the real deal. People might believe the things I say, how though are my followers saved, they are following and believing in someone other than the Son of God.

Matthew 24
Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age​

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
====================================
The end of the age is a time of great deception.

 

[Bob Estey]

Let's say that there is an American president that claims to be a believer in Christ but demonstrates by his fruits that he does not do the will of Jesus. Let's say that this president has made a career in "public service" and has been taking bribes for decades. And let's say that this president has a scandalous history of being a chronic liar on all things big and small. And let's say that this president has sold out his people to special interests and to foreign interests in order to enrich himself and his family and friends. And let's say that this president dies unconfessed and unrepentant. What do believe is his fate?

Here's my guess. He is saved by the grace of Jesus but his Heavenly reward will be that he will be a humble servant to other Christians who were actually faithful Christians in life. He will remain a humble servant for a long time and will greatly regret his foolish and sinful choices in his short life on Earth.

The following verses compel me to believe that unfaithful Christians will be saved but their "reward" will be much less than the rewards given to faithful Christians.

Proverbs 22:16​

English Standard Version​

Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.​

Matthew 19:16-30​

​

English Standard Version​

​

​

The Rich Young Man​

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,[a] when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold[b] and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

I suspect the man you are referring to is tormented, even this very moment, and will continue to be tormented till he repents of his sin.

 

[Keturah]

This very thing the word warns and cautions us about............believing and trusting in men.

Those who live in the Spirit and are led of the Spirit are the ONLY sons / daughters of the TRUE GOD !

 

[Space_Karen]

For the Son of Man is to go just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”

-Mark 14:21

The above appears to describe the fate of christians who betray the church.

 

[Keturah]

By the title alone these words scramble, contradict and cancel one another.

Elitism is in the mind of a person who feels superior or gifted in some way.

Evil is everything that is of the world and it's prince the devil,whom still awaits his final date.

Christians started as a slur of the Romans against the followers of Jesus,the Christ.
3 times is the word used.

Believers and followers of God live by the word and walk in his Spirit. They are easy to spot in their words and nature as well as the devil's children display his nature.

 

[Mr E]

Let's say that there is an American president that claims to be a believer in Christ but demonstrates by his fruits that he does not do the will of Jesus. Let's say that this president has made a career in "public service" and has been taking bribes for decades. And let's say that this president has a scandalous history of being a chronic liar on all things big and small. And let's say that this president has sold out his people to special interests and to foreign interests in order to enrich himself and his family and friends. And let's say that this president dies unconfessed and unrepentant. What do believe is his fate?

Here's my guess. He is saved by the grace of Jesus but his Heavenly reward will be that he will be a humble servant to other Christians who were actually faithful Christians in life. He will remain a humble servant for a long time and will greatly regret his foolish and sinful choices in his short life on Earth.

The following verses compel me to believe that unfaithful Christians will be saved but their "reward" will be much less than the rewards given to faithful Christians.

Proverbs 22:16​

English Standard Version​

Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.​

Matthew 19:16-30​

​

English Standard Version​

​

​

The Rich Young Man​

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,[a] when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold[b] and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

What church is he president of?

Don't go to that church.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Let's say that there is an American president that claims to be a believer in Christ but demonstrates by his fruits that he does not do the will of Jesus. Let's say that this president has made a career in "public service" and has been taking bribes for decades. And let's say that this president has a scandalous history of being a chronic liar on all things big and small. And let's say that this president has sold out his people to special interests and to foreign interests in order to enrich himself and his family and friends. And let's say that this president dies unconfessed and unrepentant. What do believe is his fate?

Here's my guess. He is saved by the grace of Jesus but his Heavenly reward will be that he will be a humble servant to other Christians who were actually faithful Christians in life. He will remain a humble servant for a long time and will greatly regret his foolish and sinful choices in his short life on Earth.

The following verses compel me to believe that unfaithful Christians will be saved but their "reward" will be much less than the rewards given to faithful Christians.

Proverbs 22:16​

English Standard Version​

Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.​

Matthew 19:16-30​

​

English Standard Version​

​

​

The Rich Young Man​

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,[a] when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold[b] and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

By their fruit you will know them. You cannot be an habitual sinner, thief, liar ... a grifter for decades and claim you are a believer of Christ. You must love the truth and be obedient. You hate sin and therefore hate lies and could not practice evil as such. God hates a lying tongue.

 

[ScottA]

Let's say that there is an American president that claims to be a believer in Christ but demonstrates by his fruits that he does not do the will of Jesus. Let's say that this president has made a career in "public service" and has been taking bribes for decades. And let's say that this president has a scandalous history of being a chronic liar on all things big and small. And let's say that this president has sold out his people to special interests and to foreign interests in order to enrich himself and his family and friends. And let's say that this president dies unconfessed and unrepentant. What do believe is his fate?

Here's my guess. He is saved by the grace of Jesus but his Heavenly reward will be that he will be a humble servant to other Christians who were actually faithful Christians in life. He will remain a humble servant for a long time and will greatly regret his foolish and sinful choices in his short life on Earth.

The following verses compel me to believe that unfaithful Christians will be saved but their "reward" will be much less than the rewards given to faithful Christians.

Proverbs 22:16​

English Standard Version​

Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.​

Matthew 19:16-30​

​

English Standard Version​

​

​

The Rich Young Man​

16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said in reply, “See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?” 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world,[a] when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold[b] and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Such a person shall hear the words, "I never knew you", then the lake of fire.

 

[-Phil]

Being ‘born again’ is realizing there was never a you that was born in the first place.
Therein, it isn’t possible to be born again and Christian (or Mormon, Jewish, Catholic, etc).
Don’t take my word for anything of course.
Actually inspect the direct experience of having been born.

 

[Mr E]

Being ‘born again’ is realizing there was never a you that was born in the first place.
Therein, it isn’t possible to be born again and Christian (or Mormon, Jewish, Catholic, etc).
Don’t take my word for anything of course.
Actually inspect the direct experience of having been born.

Listen to the stories of what it is "like" -- those stories are the only things that are reliable accounts, to inform us of things otherwise unknown. If you had to describe sky-diving to a quadriplegic who's never been separated from their wheelchair, never walked, run or jumped..... how would you do that? Maybe through a story-form, and you have to ask them to imagine things they've no real familiarity with. You'd have to ask them to employ and create associations of things that maybe they can imagine and take your word for it, that those things 'are like' whatever it is you are trying to relate.

 

[-Phil]

Listen to the stories of what it is "like" -- those stories are the only things that are reliable accounts, to inform us of things otherwise unknown. If you had to describe sky-diving to a quadriplegic who's never been separated from their wheelchair, never walked, run or jumped..... how would you do that? Maybe through a story-form, and you have to ask them to imagine things they've no real familiarity with. You'd have to ask them to employ and create associations of things that maybe they can imagine and take your word for it, that those things 'are like' whatever it is you are trying to relate.

Stating one is a born again Christian would be more equivalent to one walking perfectly normally but sharing a story about how they’re quadriplegic. It would be all too obvious that they don’t really know what they’re talking about. They’re believing they do, sure, but it’s a belief and not actual or direct experience.

Statements like this one below.

God hates

That’s arguably the most misleading use of words possible. It’s a belief, not actual or based on direct experience.

 

[PossibleThrowawayAccount]

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. " — Matthew 7:21

I think that sort of answers the question.

 

[Pearl]

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. " — Matthew 7:21

I think that sort of answers the question.

And what God requires first and foremost is that people accept Jesus and be re-born into God's family; becoming part of that Holy nation and Royal Priesthood.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Stating one is a born again Christian would be more equivalent to one walking perfectly normally but sharing a story about how they’re quadriplegic. It would be all too obvious that they don’t really know what they’re talking about. They’re believing they do, sure, but it’s a belief and not actual or direct experience.

Statements like this one below.

That’s arguably the most misleading use of words possible. It’s a belief, not actual or based on direct experience.

The Bible says God hates a lying tongue. It says he hated Esau. He destroyed millions in the Flood! Do you think that was an act of love? Jesus will return soon and destroy billions of souls. That is an act of hate. Aside from an act of justice, if killing people is not the ultimate expression of hate, than what is?
Your philosophy in placing value and trust in nothing but what is experienced in life leaves no room for faith. We experience God when we believe in Christ. Faith comes by the Word. We hear it, we read it and believe. Faith is a gift.
How can you claim to be a Christian if you do not believe that Christ died for our sins and rose on the third day? How can you experience history? These things were experienced by eye witnesses at the time.
I guess you won't believe in death until you actually experience it?

 

[-Phil]

Your philosophy in placing value and trust in nothing but what is experienced in life leaves no room for faith.

I’m not suggesting placing value and trust in anything. Those are conceptual.
I’m not suggesting philosophy. All philopshy is conceptual.
I’m suggesting investigating direct experience, rather than believing arising thoughts, beliefs or conceptualizations of experience.
I’ve nothing against believing and or having faith.

There is an absolute, unchanging under any and all situations & circumstances, contrary to & in spite of all beliefs - truth. There is what I can only point to with words as being absolute self-knowing, prior to all thoughts, beliefs, philosophies, religions, and self-conceptualizations. Historically, this is referred to as awakening or enlightenment or simply The Truth (Of yourself, and of reality).

How can you claim to be a Christian if you do not believe that Christ died for our sins and rose on the third day?

I am.

How can one sincerely claim love hates? Hate is simply a human emotion. Notice hate comes & goes with thoughts, like any other emotion. The emotion hate is a reactionary experience.

“Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.”
- MartinLuther King Jr.

How can you experience history? These things were experienced by eye witnesses at the time.

There is no past. Don’t take my word for this, actually attempt to go there now and see.

I guess you won't believe in death until you actually experience it?

The belief in death is based on the belief life, or if you will, aliveness, is a duality. In truth, aliveness is consciousness. Consciousness is not a duality. So to speak, when one croaks, this is exactly what’s realized - consciousness doesn’t end. What is infinite & eternal has no beginning or end. Thus, the key to realizing there is actually no death, is humble honesty in inspecting the belief you were born. While it may sound wild at first and be disregarded, there is no actual experience of your birth. It’s assumed in a hindsight manor based on believing arising thoughts which seem to label sensation & perception. This is verifiable right now in direct experience as well, there is only to inspect.

Shift attention now inwardly into the body. Is there the presence of sensation, let’s say, in the bottoms of your feet?
Through out the entire body, head to toe?
Now see if there is any actual edge or border in sensation. Not in thoughts about sensation, but sensation ‘itself’.
Notice there is no edge, no beginning, no ending found (directly) in sensation.

Notice perception. By that I mean seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. Look around. Do you see a beginning of perception? Do you see an end anywhere?

The truth, awakening, enlightenment, is for any interested in inspecting. The truth is simple and readily available to all. It is only the conditioning, the collective beliefs, which are radical.




If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[Aunty Jane]

By their fruit you will know them. You cannot be an habitual sinner, thief, liar ... a grifter for decades and claim you are a believer of Christ. You must love the truth and be obedient. You hate sin and therefore hate lies and could not practice evil as such. God hates a lying tongue.

I guess that rules out all politicians then.....its the system that is broken, and entices people to want to make their mark...either for the accolades, the money or the power. Those who go into politics with good motives cannot stay if they are decent people....its so corrupt that they are left with only two choices....'lick'em....or join'em.....guess what most choose....? Pathetic, isn't it?

 

[-Phil]

What do believe is his fate?

No longer appearing as ‘the president’, all beliefs in birth, death, separation, judgement, fate, others, a universe, etc fall away, leaving only the ineffable truth of whole & complete unconditional divine perfection appearing as Patrick & a world.

 

[Pearl]

No longer appearing as ‘the president’, all beliefs in birth, death, separation, judgement, fate, others, a universe, etc fall away, leaving only the ineffable truth of whole & complete unconditional divine perfection appearing as Patrick & a world.

A person's eternal fate can not be judged or guessed at before the end of their life as it's not over until it's over. You can't know that they won't be transformed by the renewing of their mind in the years to come. That is what god wants for everybody.