What do you think qualifies one to be one of Christ's disciples?

[Wormwood]

To be honest, bbyrd, I am not really interested in your opinion if you arent going to refer to the text itself. I tried to take great pains to show the context and the structure of the verses in the original language. It seems you simply want to ignore all that and go with your predetermined views. That is fine, but just dont expect me to be willing to engage in a discussion about your views on "the spirit of the text" when they dont seem to have anything to do with the text. Again, I showed you the context in great detail. Thus, it seems to me the "spirit of the text" is revealed by the simple reading of its context. Again, the NT never teaches unrepentant sin is forgiven. So I dont think my views here are contrary to grace or forgiveness.

Anyway, if you want to dialogue, please refer to the text and explain your views out of the text itself.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, i think the chapter speaks for itself just fine, and you should interpret it how you see fit.
If avoiding outlining how the theoretical tax collector should be treated is not a clue for you, then why run to define the verse so narrowly at all?
Wouldn't it be better to allow that other interpretations are possible? Just for the record, i read it that way myself for like 30 years, ok.
And i am not advocating that sin that is not rebounded from be forgiven by anyone, but even the potential for abuse with this interpretation is kind of obvious, isn't it?

So, just to be clear, you presently insist that "Because wherever two or three gather in My Name, there I am also" must be about judgement and discipline within a congregation, and cannot be about anything else?

 

[Wormwood]

I would use the word, "discipline." The context is discipline. The focus is discipline. And the point is that what they "bind" on earth will be bound in heaven because Jesus is with them when they come together to address a wayward and unrepentant person in their midst. I think it is irresponsible to draw other conclusions from this text because it would require inserting ideas that are not explicitly stated. I think we just need to allow the passage to speak without trying to explain it away by importing ideas from other places.

 

[H. Richard]

To be honest, bbyrd, I am not really interested in your opinion if you arent going to refer to the text itself. I tried to take great pains to show the context and the structure of the verses in the original language. It seems you simply want to ignore all that and go with your predetermined views. That is fine, but just dont expect me to be willing to engage in a discussion about your views on "the spirit of the text" when they dont seem to have anything to do with the text. Again, I showed you the context in great detail. Thus, it seems to me the "spirit of the text" is revealed by the simple reading of its context. Again, the NT never teaches unrepentant sin is forgiven. So I dont think my views here are contrary to grace or forgiveness.

Anyway, if you want to dialogue, please refer to the text and explain your views out of the text itself.

Perhaps this is not the thread to say this but I really don't see that unrepentant sins of the flesh condemn anyone if they are under grace and not law. I see that this is the very reason Jesus shed His blood to pay for (atone for) all the sins of the whole world.

All of mankind goes about their daily lives and do not see the sins they commit. But the child of God has already acknowledged to God that they are sinful and can not stop sinning in the flesh. This is repentance that is a continuous attitude and not a ritual. If I am saved from all the sins out in the world and not from my own sinful flesh then salvation is impossible.

Rom 7:21-25
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Jesus has delivered the children of God from the condemnation of their sinful flesh.

 

[bbyrd009]

I would use the word, "discipline." The context is discipline. The focus is discipline. And the point is that what they "bind" on earth will be bound in heaven because Jesus is with them when they come together to address a wayward and unrepentant person in their midst. I think it is irresponsible to draw other conclusions from this text because it would require inserting ideas that are not explicitly stated. I think we just need to allow the passage to speak without trying to explain it away by importing ideas from other places.

funny, that is basically my argument for why the verse stands alone though.

Coming out of the quickie mart the other day, with a squishy, and i encounter a young girl with a toddler, who apparently had nowhere to be. Wishing i was a million miles away, i ask the girl if she is in any distress. Of course she is, and tells me her story, as other people swirl around us; possibly 50 people pass by without pausing as she speaks. It’s pretty hot out. So, she gets to the punchline, which i can not help her with, but just as she is stating her need a lady pauses to stand beside me and listen. The lady asks a question or two, to the girl, who again states that she needs to be three towns over, about an hour and a half away. A vendor who has been going back and forth from truck to store verifies the town the girl wishes to be in, and although it is against policy and might get him fired, offers to give her a lift.
*Because* where two or three gather in His Name, there He is also. Now, Jesus was never mentioned in the exchange above, and it is true that there is legal precedent for witnesses confirming a matter. But Christ came to bring Grace, and so it is that this verse, embedded in a chapter on forgiveness, yet referencing an ancient point of law, might be seen and not seen.
Legal precedent and language has been invoked by Christ–Who came to serve–to impart a spiritual principle of Grace, to people with a legal mindset, who will hear and not hear. And the proof is in your explanation to me of how “…let him be like an unbeliever and a tax collector to you” might be carried out?
So when one verbalizes how this treatment of the “unbeliever and tax collector” is to be carried out, it becomes clear that you are being tested when you read this chapter, and even encouraged to express it in terms of Law if that is what you see; but you cannot square this pov with Grace, or at least i have yet to hear it.

strictly for consideration, i don't expect anyone here to explain the treatment of an unbeliever that squares with Grace either ok.

This is likely our "baptism of fire," to accept the understanding of "sheep to the slaughter" for personal application, meaning that there is no scenario in which you can justify that Christ made exception to "turn the other cheek" after He has been crucified for us, although you are encouraged to believe that you might, if that is what you are seeking. Christ does not mean what we mean by the term "Church." You might even consider the dichotomy of someone in the "church" engaged in some behavior that would get them censured, and/or that they would not retreat from even when confronted. What behavior can you not turn the other cheek from? See how you might out yourself as a lawyer in your lack of reply here, and in your replies.

I do not direct this at anyone specifically, as this pov is widely held. By all means take this post rhetorically, a thought experiment, for personal consideration. Because i do not know, ok? Just because the verse came to mind later that day, and seemed to fit, does not mean that God told me this, although it did strike me as hearing, coming by Word at the time.

Or by all means, answer, what behavior? And what treatment? We are surrounded by witnesses right now, so let's hear it! lol.
(Don't worry reader, i am confident that the questions will remain rhetorical)

 

[bbyrd009]

So then, willingness to submit to the baptism of fire might be a requirement to be considered Christ's disciple.

 

[bbyrd009]

understand that all i have is a perspective, and i cannot say that you are wrong, ok, the interwebs are certainly rife with support of your pov. But i can suggest that, just as He did for "An eye for an eye" in a sense, Christ is likely restating the Legal into the Graceful, and in such a manner that you are certainly allowed to reveal where you stand in your heart, exactly what you might expect a God~Breathed text to do.

Everyone finds what they seek; to the Atheist, this is a passage that proves God's duplicity; to the Fundie, it lends them authority. Note the shades of duplicity inherent in this authority, authoritay, we call it--which still does not mean that the principle verse is not useful for legal matters within a congregation; not saying that at all (but it does reinforce the fundie/atheist link imo).

But see how the focus is on sin and death (excommunication), and no practical means seems to even be allowed for the verse to be telling you that wherever you go you can manifest Christ, when you gather "in My Name," which prolly does not mean handing out tracts and talking about Jesus ok, but much more likely means when you are doing what Christ cares about (represents, is known by), serving some widow or whatever.

 

[bbyrd009]

10.) Punishment – Spiritually abusive groups use church discipline passages as an excuse to punish current members or to shun ex-members. They use church discipline to keep people in line, to quell disagreement (which they call “rebellion”), and as a threat against critical thinking (which they call “pride”). They also overreact to small sins or minor behavioral issues and bring the full weight of church discipline against people who actually just need time to mature. Leaders of these groups misunderstand the purpose of church discipline, which is restorative, not punitive. Spiritually abusive groups also misinterpret the warning passages in the book of Hebrews—they claim that people who leave their select group have left the faith. In contrast, healthy leaders use church discipline only in serious matters of major unrepentant sin. And they understand that the goal of such corrective measures is restoration, not punishment.
https://libertyforcaptives.com/2013/05/09/ten-major-symptoms-of-spiritual-abuse/

 

[mjrhealth]

Quote
10.) Punishment – Spiritually abusive groups use church discipline passages as an excuse to punish current members or to shun ex-members. They use church discipline to keep people in line, to quell disagreement (which they call “rebellion”), and as a threat against critical thinking (which they call “pride”). They also overreact to small sins or minor behavioral issues and bring the full weight of church discipline against people who actually just need time to mature. Leaders of these groups misunderstand the purpose of church discipline, which is restorative, not punitive. Spiritually abusive groups also misinterpret the warning passages in the book of Hebrews—they claim that people who leave their select group have left the faith. In contrast, healthy leaders use church discipline only in serious matters of major unrepentant sin. And they understand that the goal of such corrective measures is restoration, not punishment.
https://libertyforca...piritual-abuse/

bit like the Israelites in egypt

Exo 1:13 And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour:
Exo 1:14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour.

Exo 5:4 And the king of Egypt said unto them, Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works? get you unto your burdens.
Exo 5:5 And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.
Exo 5:6 And Pharaoh commanded the same day the taskmasters of the people, and their officers, saying,
Exo 5:7 Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore: let them go and gather straw for themselves.
Exo 5:8 And the tale of the bricks, which they did make heretofore, ye shall lay upon them; ye shall not diminish ought thereof: for they be idle; therefore they cry, saying, Let us go and sacrifice to our God.

 

[bbyrd009]

i hadn't thought of that, but it is likely an excellent analogy of someone in a religion, performing altar works and counting on them for salvation. It even encompasses the Passover, and thus a gathering, invitation to Christ. The "calling" part iow. It is also relevant to note that the Wanderers expressed a desire to actually return to Egypt when things got tough in the Wilderness, that any seeker must relate to in order to advance imo, as it speaks to our nature.

No one wants to go out into the (metaphorical) desert and wander, of course. It is much more comfortable to be associated with a familiar tribe, and just adopt the beliefs of that tribe to fulfill our desire for inclusion, overlooking that this excludes everyone else, and is not Christ's way. But when you take that step, you find that although it seems like you are all alone, you are actually surrounded by like-minded people. While it is difficult to release one's definition of "believer," and accept that it is those who do the right thing that are accepted, whether or not they agree with your beliefs, this is what you have to do, if you are going to follow Christ imo.

 

[Wormwood]

Totally misrepresenting my position and the text. I discipline my kids because I love them. That has nothing to do with slavery, abuse or oppression. Hebrews 12 says God "disciplines" those he loves and that if you aren't disciplined you are not a legitimate child of God.

“It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?” (Hebrews 12:7, ESV)

“As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.” (1 Timothy 5:20–21, ESV)

Hmmm, well I guess according to you, both Paul and God are "spiritually abusive." I think I will go with what is written rather than your gut and your elaborations on words from online dictionaries.

 

[mjrhealth]

“It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?” (Hebrews 12:7, ESV)

YEs it is God that does teh disciplining, not men.

Is it right that a sinner should have teh right to tell another sinner to not sin????

 

[bbyrd009]

Totally misrepresenting my position and the text. I discipline my kids because I love them. That has nothing to do with slavery, abuse or oppression. Hebrews 12 says God "disciplines" those he loves and that if you aren't disciplined you are not a legitimate child of God.

“It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?” (Hebrews 12:7, ESV)

“As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.” (1 Timothy 5:20–21, ESV)

Hmmm, well I guess according to you, both Paul and God are "spiritually abusive." I think I will go with what is written rather than your gut and your elaborations on words from online dictionaries.

You say this, but i cannot seem to get a description @ "what behavior?" and "what treatment?" lol. Why is that? It is not a trick question. It is that you will be revealed as having put yourself in the position of judge over others, yet i am denied in rebuking you for this? The questions constitute the rebuke, imo. Or BAM prove me wrong. We are given enough rope to hang ourselves here, if our hearts are judgemental, and we seek after power and authority over anything other than the Temple inside each of us, as any answer to these would illuminate imo.

And again, i am not discounting that one should out unrepentant and prideful sins, but i would contemplate a more Scriptural definition of "Church," which we associate with our particular congregations now, and not what was meant.

So wadr i think i will go with what is written, and dismiss your prevarications of the Book, that allow you to be the arbiter of my Temple.

And since i loves me some Jesus, surely you accept this at face value, too, right? So then, we have all succumbed to the Book, and placed ourselves at the head of the table, hmm. Lol. See how easy it is? Will i gain some respect if i start shouting "THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!!!" Lol, no, prolly not. So really i do not mean that as it is read, ok, just why not man up and take that crown off for a second and answer the questions, and let the answers speak for themselves? Ty. I'll just hold my breath then, shall i.

The point is of course abundantly made now, regardless of any reply, but you are nonetheless welcome to give it a shot.
You even stated a personal example at one point, sans details; why not just tell that story?

 

[lforrest]

The church has authority over their members. If you can't tolerate being subject to discipline you can go it alone. This way no one can damage your pride, and the only false teacher you can hear is yourself.

 

[bbyrd009]

The church has authority over their members. If you can't tolerate being subject to discipline you can go it alone. This way no one can damage your pride, and the only false teacher you can hear is yourself.

which might be completely valid in one case, or revealed as hypocrisy when "the church" cannot reply to simple questions not asked from "why?" After all, gang leaders have authority over their members, too. So i'm not disagreeing, but it cuts both ways.

Nowhere am i required to assume or pretend that there is any human intercessor between me and God. Christ is it. If replies to "what behavior" and "what treatment" meet the standard of Grace, then why not state them? And if they do not, then whose pride is threatened?

If you claim some authority then an honest reply strikes me as the best way to demonstrate it, rather than ignoring that and descending into an ad hominem dismissal, wadr. So now i am smelling a rat/worm, tbh.

The Church--me--should certainly have authority over its members--those concepts that i practice that manifest Christ, or do not. If you cannot tolerate discipline, a great remedy might be to go join some congregation who will never advise you to experience being driven into the wilderness, where you must go it alone, just you and Christ. Undeniably there is comfort in a herd; but you get crucified alone, and you get judged alone, and you must seek your own salvation.

 

[mjrhealth]

The church has authority over their members. If you can't tolerate being subject to discipline you can go it alone. This way no one can damage your pride, and the only false teacher you can hear is yourself.

Only because when members join a church they hand themselves over to its leaders. Why are people more afraid of Jesus than man??? Like wormwood quoted,

Heb_12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

God does teh dealing not men.

Discipline you dont know the meaning.

 

[lforrest]

Only because when members join a church they hand themselves over to its leaders. Why are people more afraid of Jesus than man??? Like wormwood quoted,

Heb_12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

God does teh dealing not men.

Discipline you dont know the meaning.

Heb_12:7 has a purpose that is revealed in the context, “do not lose heart when he rebukes you." It is so you don't doubt God in the hardships he puts you through.

What are the hardships a church can cause compared to God? A bruised ego, emotional distress, or worst they may not want to play with you anymore. Then there is God, who can destroy life as you know it in an instant. Psalm 38

 

[mjrhealth]

What are the hardships a church can cause compared to God? A bruised ego, emotional distress, or worst they may not want to play with you anymore.

Nothing compared to God. A bit like

Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

Nothing has changed

 

[Wormwood]

YEs it is God that does teh disciplining, not men.

Is it right that a sinner should have teh right to tell another sinner to not sin????

“As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.” (1 Timothy 5:20–21, ESV)

“This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,” (Titus 1:13, ESV)


“When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 5:4–5, ESV)

​Your issue is with the Bible, not me.

 

[mjrhealth]

Your issue is with the Bible, not me.

Hmm no, just the religious, and can you please tell me which of teh hundreds of bible versions is His pure, undefiled, correct wirthout error , version of His word. Considering there is one God (unless you know some others), one truth and one Jesus who is teh Word of God come in teh flesh..Is Gods word Copyright???

Is it teh NIV, NKJ, OKJ, KJ, NSV, Rhhema ......


Please which one is it, it can only be one...