What do you think qualifies one to be one of Christ's disciples?

[mjrhealth]

Discipleship implies following another, namely Christ

Amen, Christ

Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

or

Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

This discussion began because some have questioned how we determine the voice of Christ and have claimed that the Scriptures are to vague to be interpreted definitively or that the local church is not a valid voice of authority either.

Thats because that was given to

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

We are supposed to follow Christ not men, its something Jesus instlled into teh disciples but is rejected by men.

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

After pentecost, we where supposed to receive and be led by teh Holy Spirit but,

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

there is an authority there that comes from Christ, himself that those who claim to be disciples should be willing to hear.

Amen and teh ywont follow any one else
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

We know in whom the truth lies, its not in men.

Reiterating

Joh_6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

But isnt that crazy, I have to quote the bible because men wont listen to anything else.
You still havnt answered teh question about which bible is teh well you know the bit. Simple answer, theer is either one or non, becuase there is only one truth and it doesnt change for men.

 

[H. Richard]

you must demonstrate this confidence in many ways, many acts, confessing your sins one to another, etc, and also recognizing that the descendants of the Wanderers in the Promised Land also had a confidence in Nehushtan, and the parallels should not be ignored, imo.

***
I don't have to demonstrate anything to men. Men are not my judge. Who ever wishes to judge me must first judge themselves by the same standard. If they sin then they can not judge me for sin.

But religious people love to judge others for their sins for it is a way the focus is on others rather than on themselves. If a person judges another for their sins while they sin too then they are condemning themselves.

1 Cor 4:3-5
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.
NKJV

Religious people look at the outwards sins and cannot see the inward sins they commit every day..

 

[H. Richard]

you might note that Paul got over that approbation, and went on to find his crown, brother. Your free will is never, ever going to be dismissed or annulled by God, and satan might always be released for a brief season, wadr, at least until you cast him into the pit. I'm def still working on that myself, and i just got another lesson on this. Do you envision a heaven filled with "believers" who can no longer choose, even though the angels obviously can? I'm not interested in getting into another pointless faith v works discussion, as the Book is full of the requirements, but i suggest that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and also the dead know nothing, and these are two completely different states, ok?

If you have no control, then change your mind, meet Him in the air, and relinquish this control, that you do not have anyway. This focus on sin and death is not God's will for you. It is a trap, pointed at by "Who told you that you were naked?" ok? Wadr you would be better served to go sit in a cave than continue giving your hard earned money to people considered "successful" by the world's standards in exchange for a false hope that they certainly cannot come here and demonstrate to me from Scripture. Best of luck.

***
That is an assumption on your part. Paul never claimed to be free of sin as religious people do today. He knew that when born again he had two natures, Romans 7) one of the sinful flesh and one of the spirit.

He said to walk in the spirit but that is why there is so much judging because men do not walk in the spirit. To the religious walking in the spirit is walking keeping the law by not sinning the sins of the flesh.

The religious will never see that the children of God are righteous because they believe (a spiritual effort, not physical) As long as a person has their belief, faith, confidence in the promise of salvation by trusting in His promise of grace (Paul's gospel of grace) they are walking in the spirit.

 

[H. Richard]

The church has authority over their members. If you can't tolerate being subject to discipline you can go it alone. This way no one can damage your pride, and the only false teacher you can hear is yourself.

***
So you place your belief, faith, trust, and confidence in men who claim to be more righteous than others?

lol, Perhaps it is the pointed hats with gold trimming and the colorful robes they wear.
so that men will see how much closer to God they are than others.

 

[H. Richard]

Richard,

I don't think grace is rationale to take sin lightly. I believe God deeply desires us to be transformed by grace and to hold one another accountable. Discipline in the church is a means to help people grow in faith and to keep leaven out of the holy people of God. It isn't a means of judgment or being "holier than thou." It is simply a means of trying to encourage one another to live lives worthy of the high calling of Christ.

I liken it to a sports team. Teams practice diligently and will try to demand excellence from one another as they work together. If someone is slacking off or not giving it their all, another veteran player will come along, slap them on the rear and tell them to get their head in the game. This isn't because they don't like the player or want to throw them off the team. It is because the DO like the player and want them to be their best for their sake and the sake of others on the team. Is the veteran player saying, "I never make an error" when he rebukes a teammate for being lazy? No. He simply recognizes the difference between a mistake and lazy, careless play. God calls us to discipline and hold other believers accountable who "persist" in sin and refuse to repent when confronted by others. Again, grace is not a license to sin. If anything, the cross should teach us how horrific our sins are and how badly God desires us to be free of them. The cross of Christ was not merely an accountant's trick.

I too thank God for making salvation a matter of grace alone. Yet, grace should cause us to desire to live transformed lives and embrace a humility that accepts rebuke and discipline from others. I think it is a significant error to imply that concern and passion for holy living is undermining grace. If anything, it truly appreciates grace. Perhaps another illustration will help...

Imagine a man is in debt 1 million dollars. He pleads for forgiveness and receives amazing, undeserved grace as the lender completely forgives the man of his debt. Then, once the man is forgiven of his debt, goes back to the lender and asks for a million dollar loan and begins to squander that money as well. A friend comes up to the man and says, "Friend, our master has treated you with immense kindness. You need to stop this reckless spending. You were forgiven so you could be free of debt." The man responds, "How dare you lecture me! You have a debt too! So don't pretend you are better than me! You just dont understand grace!"

So which person really understands grace? I don't believe the friend who confronts his brother is anything like the legalistic Pharisee who condemned others who they felt were not as righteous as themselves. This has nothing to do with condemnation or looking down at others.

***
Who said I take sin lightly. Those are your words and reveal what you think I am saying. Sin is sending many to hell this very moment. My Bible tells me that what Jesus took care of my sins on the cross and I believe it, do you? Do you really think that your efforts to not sin is the way to salvation? Don't you see that according to the scriptures Jesus' shed blood atoned for , paid for, ALL THE SINS OF THE WORLD. So which sins are left to condemn people? There is one and it was the same sin that Eve and Adam committed, unbelief. Eve and Adam chose to believe Satan instead of God. This is what condemns in this age of Grace; unbelief; unbelief that Jesus' shed blood, His work on the cross purchased salvation for all that will place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in it. He, Jesus, has given mankind the free gift of salvation but men refuse to see it because they believe in their work in religion before believing in God's work on the cross.

If a person feels that they control their salvation by what they do in religion to not sin then they do not believe Jesus atoned for all the sins of the world.

Isa 53:3-6
3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
NKJV

Gal 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
NKJV

 

[bbyrd009]

***
I don't have to demonstrate anything to men. Men are not my judge.

? ok, but we are your keepers, and you most certainly must practice those things that Christ requires of you in order to be accepted, regardless of how other men might interpret these. Yes, you will be perceived as weak by some when you manifest Christ, and openly admit your mistakes, and ask forgiveness, and demonstrate rebound from them. You will obviously be held accountable for withholding a cup of "water" to the thirsty. Etc.

"I trust that Christ has covered all of my sins, and i do not have to humble myself when i am wrong, or ask forgiveness from anyone to be considered accepted by God" is a lie, ok.

Who ever wishes to judge me must first judge themselves by the same standard. If they sin then they can not judge me for sin.

Sure they can--many are going to, anyway, lol. So what. It is your response to this that matters, for you. I dislike dwelling on sin and death, myself, but obviously if you did sin, unawares, as does happen in creation sometimes, it is to your advantage to have someone point it out, that you may make what reparations are indicated or whatever. Of course in practice it more often amounts to others attempting to remove splinters from your eye, perhaps, but that is on them, not you. I might suggest that one cultivate a perspective of remorse even for these, and inquire what the accuser suggests be done as a remedy, and let their answer guide you, but that is up to the individual. Because anyone can see and know from past experience that at times our plans accidently encroach upon our neighbor's, in ways that we did not intend, yes? Better sorry than safe, in that sense, perhaps. At the same time, someone judging you for sins is revealed, and this is surely your best perspective on that person's heart, is it not?

But religious people love to judge others for their sins for it is a way the focus is on others rather than on themselves. If a person judges another for their sins while they sin too then they are condemning themselves.

1 Cor 4:3-5
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself.
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.
NKJV

Religious people look at the outwards sins and cannot see the inward sins they commit every day..

well, not sure how we came to this discussion of sin and death again--just kidding, i know ezackly how--but i suggest that you condemn the religious here for things that even "heathens" do, so i suspect that your division here is arbitrary, if it may be considered that Atheists are religious, too, as are Scientists. At least some or many. But yes, there are also hypocrites in churches, chief among them imo those who espouse trusting "Jesus" to overlook all of their unconfessed sin, sins not confessed one to another, and counselling that it is ok to "confess" to some 3rd party that is inevitably referred to as "father" in the dark and everything will be ok, etc. Not sure how much more satanic and antithetical to the Book a dogma could be, tbh.

 

[bbyrd009]

***
That is an assumption on your part. Paul never claimed to be free of sin as religious people do today. He knew that when born again he had two natures, Romans 7) one of the sinful flesh and one of the spirit.

He said to walk in the spirit but that is why there is so much judging because men do not walk in the spirit. To the religious walking in the spirit is walking keeping the law by not sinning the sins of the flesh.

The religious will never see that the children of God are righteous because they believe (a spiritual effort, not physical)

well surely Paul would never make the claim to be free of sin, recognizing that satan might always be loosed again for a short season, yes. Just as your free will will never be surgically removed or whatever by God.

you state that the "religious" will never see, but wadr you then go on to make statements that i interpret as religious, so we are perhaps engaged in a semantics discussion now, i don't know.

As long as a person has their belief, faith, confidence in the promise of salvation by trusting in His promise of grace (Paul's gospel of grace) they are walking in the spirit.

bull puckey. If you cannot man up and confess your sins to those you sinned against, Nehushtan is not going to save you, ok? And i don't mean in a closet somewhere, or kneeling at your bedside at night, wherein your precious ego might be conserved. This is the height of hypocrisy. Jesus will not save you simply because you believe He will, or have faith that He will, or think Grace is some magic incantation that makes things all better without confession. As a brief conversation with any offended party who has not been confessed to might tell anyone. Have confidence and trust all you like, it will not avail you. Your lamp is going to need oil, and you are not going to have any, with this perspective.

the funny part here is that you are already forgiven, but when you are revealed you will not be able to accept this forgiveness, and i have examples from this forum, if you like.
You might reflect upon "Who told you that you were naked?" for this concept, to see that it is the mind of the unrepentant that betrays them, and this is what is meant by being "judged by God." It is the shame and guilt of unrequited sin, in the retaining of one's ego, that will betray them. If you are to "trust" in the promise of grace, then you must manifest grace, you must forgive to be forgiven, you must confess one to another, you must, you must, you must. these are not optional, and your faith will not avail you if it is only a belief that you play at on Sunday for an hour, or pretend is accomplished with another human in a dark closet, regardless of the twisting of the passage that suggests otherwise.

 

[H. Richard]

? ok, but we are your keepers, and you most certainly must practice those things that Christ requires of you in order to be accepted, regardless of how other men might interpret these. Yes, you will be perceived as weak by some when you manifest Christ, and openly admit your mistakes, and ask forgiveness, and demonstrate rebound from them. You will obviously be held accountable for withholding a cup of "water" to the thirsty. Etc.

"I trust that Christ has covered all of my sins, and i do not have to humble myself when i am wrong, or ask forgiveness from anyone to be considered accepted by God" is a lie, ok.

Sure they can--many are going to, anyway, lol. So what. It is your response to this that matters, for you. I dislike dwelling on sin and death, myself, but obviously if you did sin, unawares, as does happen in creation sometimes, it is to your advantage to have someone point it out, that you may make what reparations are indicated or whatever. Of course in practice it more often amounts to others attempting to remove splinters from your eye, perhaps, but that is on them, not you. I might suggest that one cultivate a perspective of remorse even for these, and inquire what the accuser suggests be done as a remedy, and let their answer guide you, but that is up to the individual. Because anyone can see and know from past experience that at times our plans accidently encroach upon our neighbor's, in ways that we did not intend, yes? Better sorry than safe, in that sense, perhaps. At the same time, someone judging you for sins is revealed, and this is surely your best perspective on that person's heart, is it not?



well, not sure how we came to this discussion of sin and death again--just kidding, i know ezackly how--but i suggest that you condemn the religious here for things that even "heathens" do, so i suspect that your division here is arbitrary, if it may be considered that Atheists are religious, too, as are Scientists. At least some or many. But yes, there are also hypocrites in churches, chief among them imo those who espouse trusting "Jesus" to overlook all of their unconfessed sin, sins not confessed one to another, and counselling that it is ok to "confess" to some 3rd party that is inevitably referred to as "father" in the dark and everything will be ok, etc. Not sure how much more satanic and antithetical to the Book a dogma could be, tbh.

***
No, you are not my keeper nor is anyone else. It is the Holy Spirit that keeps the children of God.. God did not leave His children in the hands of sinful men (see Hebrews) But it seems the religious think He did.

A person is justified by their faith not by religious practices.but I know that the religious want to bring the children of God under their power..

You said ""I trust that Christ has covered all of my sins, and i do not have to humble myself when i am wrong, or ask forgiveness from anyone to be considered accepted by God" is a lie, ok.

What you indicate with this statement is the lie. The children of God have humbled themselves before God and acknowledged that they are sinful and have placed their trust in His work on the cross. Just as I have indicated that I know I am sinful in the flesh and need His shed blood on the cross to atone for my sins.

All your wondering and assumptions are are just yours and you live with them. I don't have to. The bottom line is this; a person either believes Jesus atoned for ALL their sins of the flesh or they don't believe He did. Those of faith in the work of the cross are children of God. Those who do not believe the work of the cross atoned for all their sins are not children of God.

 

[H. Richard]

well surely Paul would never make the claim to be free of sin, recognizing that satan might always be loosed again for a short season, yes. Just as your free will will never be surgically removed or whatever by God.

you state that the "religious" will never see, but wadr you then go on to make statements that i interpret as religious, so we are perhaps engaged in a semantics discussion now, i don't know.

bull puckey. If you cannot man up and confess your sins to those you sinned against, Nehushtan is not going to save you, ok? And i don't mean in a closet somewhere, or kneeling at your bedside at night, wherein your precious ego might be conserved. This is the height of hypocrisy. Jesus will not save you simply because you believe He will, or have faith that He will, or think Grace is some magic incantation that makes things all better without confession. As a brief conversation with any offended party who has not been confessed to might tell anyone. Have confidence and trust all you like, it will not avail you. Your lamp is going to need oil, and you are not going to have any, with this perspective.

the funny part here is that you are already forgiven, but when you are revealed you will not be able to accept this forgiveness, and i have examples from this forum, if you like.
You might reflect upon "Who told you that you were naked?" for this concept, to see that it is the mind of the unrepentant that betrays them, and this is what is meant by being "judged by God." It is the shame and guilt of unrequited sin, in the retaining of one's ego, that will betray them. If you are to "trust" in the promise of grace, then you must manifest grace, you must forgive to be forgiven, you must confess one to another, you must, you must, you must. these are not optional, and your faith will not avail you if it is only a belief that you play at on Sunday for an hour, or pretend is accomplished with another human in a dark closet, regardless of the twisting of the passage that suggests otherwise.

***
Sorry you are all upset and must write what you did.to get your point across. You will never be able to put me in your religious box. I believe, I have faith, I trust, I have confidence in the gospel of Grace as given to Paul for the world. But it looks like you don't.. Now you live with your belief that you can save yourself by what you do. I will not do that. For a person to hold up their works in front of God and expect Him to honor them is a slap in the face of God who by His work on the cross He has saved all that will trust in Him. All glory for salvation belongs to God.

The children of faith have always been a horn in the side of the religious.

 

[Wormwood]

Amen, Christ

Rev_14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

or

Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Joh 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Thats because that was given to

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

We are supposed to follow Christ not men, its something Jesus instlled into teh disciples but is rejected by men.

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

After pentecost, we where supposed to receive and be led by teh Holy Spirit but,

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


Amen and teh ywont follow any one else
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

We know in whom the truth lies, its not in men.

Reiterating

Joh_6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

But isnt that crazy, I have to quote the bible because men wont listen to anything else.
You still havnt answered teh question about which bible is teh well you know the bit. Simple answer, theer is either one or non, becuase there is only one truth and it doesnt change for men.

Yes, us "men" listen to the Bible. I know you envision yourself as some sort of heavenly being, but my guess is you too are a "man." So, I'll follow your advice and not listen to you, but to what the Bible teaches. You have claimed church leaders should not confront persistent sin but the Bible says otherwise.


“As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.” (1 Timothy 5:20, ESV)

So in agreement with you, I'll side with God here...not with you.

 

[Wormwood]

Do you really think that your efforts to not sin is the way to salvation? Don't you see that according to the scriptures Jesus' shed blood atoned for , paid for, ALL THE SINS OF THE WORLD. So which sins are left to condemn people? There is one and it was the same sin that Eve and Adam committed, unbelief. Eve and Adam chose to believe Satan instead of God. This is what condemns in this age of Grace; unbelief; unbelief that Jesus' shed blood, His work on the cross purchased salvation for all that will place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in it. He, Jesus, has given mankind the free gift of salvation but men refuse to see it because they believe in their work in religion before believing in God's work on the cross.


If a person feels that they control their salvation by what they do in religion to not sin then they do not believe Jesus atoned for all the sins of the world.

What are you talking about? Who ever said I believed my efforts were my means of salvation?

the Bible clearly teaches, as I have pointed out, that persistent sin should be confronted. I never said this was our means of salvation. Lets not twist things to set up straw men. If your child is stealing, you are going to confront them and discipline them so they stop. You don't do this SO THAT you will love them, but BECAUSE you love them. I don't know why this concept is so difficult for everyone on here to grasp.

Moreover, if Jesus is really a person's Lord, they do what He says. They don't call him "Lord" and reject his word and use grace as rationale for doing so. Again, not saying we are saved by perfect obedience, but we are saved by making Christ our Lord and there is something fishy about saying Christ is a person's Lord but then refusing to respond to his word and desires. Again, that sounds like Gnosticism. The teaching that if you just accept some knowledge about Jesus in your head and what you do with your body makes no difference and you can rape, kill, steal, lie....doesnt matter so long as you claim special knowledge (in this case "saved by grace not by works) you are free and clear. It doesn't work that way.

God is not mocked. This argument that faith and actions are completely unrelated is simply not Biblical...neither Jesus, Peter, John or Paul make such a claim. Faith leads to transformed living and if it doesn't, then it isn't the Christian faith. Jesus was the Word made flesh. If our words of faith don't take on flesh, then we are not Christ"ian" and our faith is a lie. A person can call a potato a diamond all day long...it doesn't make it so. Likewise, a person can claim they have faith and are saved by grace until they are blue in the face. If they don't walk the talk then its a bunch of hot air. God has never been impressed with lip service. True faith brings about true change.

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes, us "men" listen to the Bible. I know you envision yourself as some sort of heavenly being, but my guess is you too are a "man." So, I'll follow your advice and not listen to you, but to what the Bible teaches. You have claimed church leaders should not confront persistent sin but the Bible says otherwise.

How does one listen to what one reads, does not teh bibel declare

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

One needs to hear is how one gets life, again

oh_4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

or

Joh_7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

can you imagine what it would be like if

Joh_6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

can you imagine all men learning from Jesus, can you imagine the delight in His face as He declares to God, look, they have all come to me, now they all know me, no more religion no more teachers just me and them....

What will happen that day, when our Lord returns, and teh wise virgins get called and light there lamps, and they walk in teh light and brightness of their shining, while the foolish virgins find there lamps are flickering and dull, than they run to the wise and ask for oil, who declare unto them, We only have enough for ourselves!, what will they than do, run to teh religious and ask, help us. our lamps are dull and we do not have enough oil, what will we do?? What will they do, send them to BP to see if they have any???

 

[H. Richard]

What are you talking about? Who ever said I believed my efforts were my means of salvation?

the Bible clearly teaches, as I have pointed out, that persistent sin should be confronted. I never said this was our means of salvation. Lets not twist things to set up straw men. If your child is stealing, you are going to confront them and discipline them so they stop. You don't do this SO THAT you will love them, but BECAUSE you love them. I don't know why this concept is so difficult for everyone on here to grasp.

Moreover, if Jesus is really a person's Lord, they do what He says. They don't call him "Lord" and reject his word and use grace as rationale for doing so. Again, not saying we are saved by perfect obedience, but we are saved by making Christ our Lord and there is something fishy about saying Christ is a person's Lord but then refusing to respond to his word and desires. Again, that sounds like Gnosticism. The teaching that if you just accept some knowledge about Jesus in your head and what you do with your body makes no difference and you can rape, kill, steal, lie....doesnt matter so long as you claim special knowledge (in this case "saved by grace not by works) you are free and clear. It doesn't work that way.

God is not mocked. This argument that faith and actions are completely unrelated is simply not Biblical...neither Jesus, Peter, John or Paul make such a claim. Faith leads to transformed living and if it doesn't, then it isn't the Christian faith. Jesus was the Word made flesh. If our words of faith don't take on flesh, then we are not Christ"ian" and our faith is a lie. A person can call a potato a diamond all day long...it doesn't make it so. Likewise, a person can claim they have faith and are saved by grace until they are blue in the face. If they don't walk the talk then its a bunch of hot air. God has never been impressed with lip service. True faith brings about true change.

****
But men do mock God. God has said that He paid for the sins of all mankind but do men believe it? The discussion between us boils down to this very thing; did Jesus' shed blood pay for all the sins of the world which includes both of us.

When a person teaches that sin in the life of a person condemns that person they are saying that what the person does to sin or not sin determines their salvation

What I see in your writing above is your saying a person must not sin (the law) when you and I both know that we both sin in the flesh. Which is it? Is a person saved by having faith in the work of Jesus on the cross, alone, or by His work AND a person' work trying not to sin? If it includes the work of man then it is not a gift from God. The person has to earn it by what they do.

It seems to me that when I say that a person has to place ALL their faith in Jesus' work on the cross the religious must include their own works. And, since I do not include my works I must be the chief of sinners running around wanting to sin all the time. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It should be clear that I teach that God freed mankind from their sins of the flesh when He atoned for them on the cross. It is clear to see that I teach what God has done for man. He has made a way that saves sinners, not the self righteous. (self righteous = those that think they earn their salvation by what they do)

Now if you do not fit my definition of the religious then I do not see where you need to think that what I have written applies to you..

By the way, a person makes Christ their Lord when they place their faith, trust, belief and confidence in what their Lord has done for them.

 

[bbyrd009]

What you indicate with this statement is the lie. The children of God have humbled themselves before God and acknowledged that they are sinful and have placed their trust in His work on the cross. Just as I have indicated that I know I am sinful in the flesh and need His shed blood on the cross to atone for my sins.

Well i am sorry to have to tell you that Jesus is not going to save you, and that you can pray for forgiveness or ask forgiveness from unaffected parties until you are blue in the face, it won't matter, but at least then you don't have to humble yourself and follow the prescription to avail yourself of Grace, as we are commanded.

"Acknowledge that you are sinful and place your trust in Christ's sacrifice for you" is not anywhere in the Bible, and you are called to be perfect, as God is perfect.

The bottom line is this; a person either believes Jesus atoned for ALL their sins of the flesh or they don't believe He did.

well here's to the ones not buying that crap, who recognize their responsibility in Grace. Nowhere do i read "when you ask Jesus for forgiveness of your sin that night on your knees before bed, He is faithful and just to forgive you."

Those of faith in the work of the cross are children of God.

i would say that they are quite obviously Nehushtan worshippers, trapped in a Jesus cult, and fit for nothing so much as Gehenna, personally, but keep that camel down as long as it suits you.

Those who do not believe the work of the cross atoned for all their sins are not children of God.

16 Therefore confess your sins to each other
37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged.
Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.
Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Yes, Christ atoned for our sins, all of them, but this will not serve you if you do not practice Grace, as anyone of a forgiving heart has experienced when being attacked by the forgiven. Heaping burning coals on peoples' heads is not pleasant work, and i suggest that you have found a great way around it, perhaps?

 

[bbyrd009]

***
Sorry you are all upset and must write what you did.to get your point across.

i am all upset? "confess your sins to each other" is a point that i manufactured?

You will never be able to put me in your religious box. I believe, I have faith, I trust, I have confidence in the gospel of Grace as given to Paul for the world.

um, isn't that the definition of "religion?" I understand that you do all of those churchy things, ok, and this is me suggesting that it will not avail you, and that while you are certainly forgiven already you will not be able to accept Grace, just as Adam and Eve did not understand God's "Who told you that you were naked?" You might see that you are abusing Christ as if He were a snake on a pole, Nehushtan, with this, and that it is you that must break this kind of worship up, and recognize that Christ certainly forgives you, but you also have to forgive yourself, and you will not be able to do this if you have spent your life protecting your ego. Yes, you are forgiven; and you are the one responsible for seeing to it that burning coals are not heaped on your head. Satan has confidence in the Gospel, too, much more than us, surely. So what.

 

[bbyrd009]

The children of faith have always been a horn in the side of the religious.

i'm not sure this word means what you think it means. Could you tell me your definition of it? ty

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, us "men" listen to the Bible. I know you envision yourself as some sort of heavenly being, but my guess is you too are a "man." So, I'll follow your advice and not listen to you, but to what the Bible teaches. You have claimed church leaders should not confront persistent sin but the Bible says otherwise.


“As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.” (1 Timothy 5:20, ESV)

So in agreement with you, I'll side with God here...not with you.

ah, the old "I have God on my side" defense. Lol.

I'm curious how you might recognize when it might be you persisting in sin, in this case? Not saying that you are sinning right now, but if you were, how would you know? For example i now rebuke you for not being encouraging, what is your reply to this?

i mean surely you can see the inherent "Since i am the one siding with God here, by definition you, mjr, are the one not siding with God, as anyone who accepts my authoritay can easily see."
It is just a clever way to put others down wadr.

 

[bbyrd009]

They don't call him "Lord" and reject his word and use grace as rationale for doing so.

trust me, they do it all the time. As a habit, and a general rule. Many will cry LordLord. So i'm not sure how you can even defend this; it is a statement made from the influence of tares imo, wadr.

 

[tabletalk]

From bbyrd009: "....recognize that Christ certainly forgives you, but you also have to forgive yourself, and you will not be able to do this if you have spent your life protecting your ego. Yes, you are forgiven; and you are the one responsible for seeing to it that burning coals are not heaped on your head. Satan has confidence in the Gospel, too, much more than us, surely. So what."

I have read this other places, maybe many times, that "you also have to forgive yourself". Can you make a biblical case for that statement? Is it a command I have missed, and am I sinning by not following it? Or maybe it is a psychological truth?

 

[tabletalk]

bbyrd009 said: "Yes, you are forgiven; and you are the one responsible for seeing to it that burning coals are not heaped on your head."

Can you explain the meaning of the burning coals heaped on someone's head? I thought that was something desirable to have happen to you, like in this passage: Romans 12:20
Therefore “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”