What do you think qualifies one to be one of Christ's disciples?

[Wormwood]

well, i don't mean to say that it cannot mean that, but that you are led into interpreting that way if you like, even though the bit about the admin of a certain ecclesia is not the main them of the chapter. My copy frames it that way, too;

13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.
14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.
Dealing With Sin in the Church
15“If your brother or sisterb sins,c go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
16But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d
17If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will bee bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will bef loosed in heaven.

19“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
20For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.g






but you have to limit vv18-20 strictly to church administration on your own, imo; now, what has been told truly to you has been redefined so as to limit it to the accepted group, and you in fact make these verses null, of no effect, by doing this, because now "there I am, wherever two or three gather in My Name"--which is even started with a "For..." and not a "So..." or a "For this reason..."--is made a servant of the preceding vv, rather than being the spiritual principle that this specific church admin direction comes from, as you have said yourself.

So now it reads, "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them, as long as they are discussing the disciplining of another member of the church."
Can you interpret it that way, if you want to? Yes. But that does not mean you know that--those breaks were put in there only quite recently, when beginning v20 with a "For" alone should suggest to you that the preceding depends upon v20, and not the other way around.

No, I am not suggesting it is limited to administration of the church. I am saying it is in relation to two or three witnesses in the church that confront another believer about sinful behaviors. The point is that two or three witnesses that confront a believer about something are a valid witness that demands respect just as two or three witnesses under the Law was sufficient to convict a person of a crime. So, the progression goes like this....

A person is mistreated or swindled by another believer. That person confronts the wrongdoer. If the believer does not repent when confronted, the person brings two or three witnesses in the church of the wrongdoing to confront the person. If they still dont repent then the matter is brought to the church and if they still dont repent then they are cast out of the fellowship.

Other NT passages show that the 2 or 3 that did the confronting were often leaders in the church. My point is not that Jesus is ONLY with 2 or 3 church leaders. My point is that the NT and Jesus clearly teach a distinct group of believers bound by certain beliefs and practices and would cast people out of their fellowship if on the basis of multiple witnesses to inappropriate actions by another believer. Jesus is saying, "You can rest assured that my authority goes with the multiple witnesses who are confronting the person. So, its not just Billy, Sally and Joe confronting Fred about his misdeeds, but Jesus, himself. So, the point here is that the "church" was an organized group that carried the authority of Jesus on matters of discipline and cast people out of the group if their actions or beliefs were unbecoming of a Christian (it wasn't this "all do-gooders" manifest Jesus and therefore belong to the church...regardless of other actions or beliefs...as you implied before).

neverminding that one must assume some different treatment for tax collectors et al from a "Christian" anyway, when that cannot be justified. For how are we called to treat them any differently? See, that little passage in there, in the middle of a chapter on forgiveness, ends up being sucker bait for people who want to be judgemental, and wadr it all starts with "well, that verse means this, because it follows this verse," when in fact it does not; it stands alone, and the concept of ecclesia admin is built upon it (even though that applies to any group, being an organic concept that even Unions and Hell's Angels follow).

Well it sounds to me like you are accusing Jesus of double-talk. I dont think that is what is going on here. Jesus isn't saying, "Treat them like a pagan or tax-collector" (which, snicker, snicker, means you treat them very nice and accept them just like everyone else). If that is the case, Jesus is doing a lot of talking but actually saying nothing. No, the progression goes like this...

God deeply loves every last child, so guard them and dont let people lead them astray with sin.
--
In fact, if someone is living a sinful, inconsistent life in your midst, follow the appropriate procedure of confronting them so they might repent and not lead others astray (Paul refers to this as a "little yeast working its way through the dough.")
--
If they refuse to repent, cast them out and treat them like an outsider.
-----
"But what if they DO repent, Lord....how many times should we forgive them...7 times?"
===
If they repent...you forgive them in the same way as God forgave you...without limit.

So, you see, Jesus isn't saying we treat them as tax collectors...which means we ignore sin and lack of repentance...because after all, we all make mistakes and who are we to judge. No, he is saying, if they dont repent, then toss them out. If they DO repent...you forgive them as God forgave you. Unrepentant sin in the life of the church leads people astray and Christians should not tolerate this..otherwise we lose our "salt and light" and the little children God loves become impacted and misled by yeast working though the dough.

That is EXACTLY what we see Paul teaching to the Corinthian church. They were to cast the sexually immoral person out. However, in next letter to the Corinthians, when Paul hears that the person has repented, he calls them to embrace that person and welcome them back.

“The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.” (2 Corinthians 2:6–11, NIV84)

Finally, I dont know how to respond to the rest of what you wrote. It doesn't make sense to me. I am trying to show you the context of what the verses mean and why they mean these things by referring to the flow of thought and other supporting passages. It seems you are suggesting I have simply presupposed what the texts mean and am referring to my own predetermined views rather than appealing to the text. I just simply dont think this is the case. All of my comments are based on appeals to context and I am trying to use the overall discussion Jesus is making as rationale for my views. If anything, it seems you are the one going with your gut and impressions to draw your conclusions on these matters.

 

[mjrhealth]

Ive read stories about pastors, who came to see what "church" really is and quit. Tried to get back to basics, found the yneeded fellowship, started home groups than eventually someone tells them, you have just re created the very thing you where trying to leave.

Its hard

I know of only one way.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And as far as disciples go

Luk_14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

and that is teh hardest one of all,

Bu than we have

Mat_10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

or

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

And yet that is exactly what we see, so called servants lording over teh congregation

Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

But what does "church" do,?? It says, no if you want Jesus you have to go through us

or

Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

or David


2Sa 24:2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people.
2Sa 24:3 And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing?

2Sa 24:10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.

and yet that is exactly what "church" does,

People dont need church, they only need Jesus, its "church: that needs people ., without them it has no place or need for its existence

There is nothing "church" has to offer that God cant provide,

It cant save any one
It cant get people to know God nor Jesus, it can only tell them "about " them.

The only way to know Jesus is to spend time with Him, no one can do taht for you.

If all men went to Jesus, teh world would be a better place.

 

[Mungo]

There is nothing "church" has to offer that God cant provide,

God provides through his Church.

When you reject his Church you reject his provision.

 

[mjrhealth]

God provides through his Church.

When you reject his Church you reject his provision.

God doesnt nend church man does, a puppet on a string that is pulled when required,dance for us God, its sunday. He wont play mens silly games.

 

[Mungo]

God doesnt nend church man does, a puppet on a string that is pulled when required,dance for us God, its sunday. He wont play mens silly games.

God doesn't NEED anything.

Yes man needs a Church because that is how God makes provision for us to receive his grace.

I like this explanation from An Orthodox priest

3. The Church is what salvation looks like.

I’ll explain this third point in some detail. The Church is what salvation looks like because salvation is not a momentary matter, but a life-long event. It may be initiated by our acceptance of Christ, just as a battle against cancer may be initiated by a diagnosis and first dose of chemo. But the sin which affects us is not a mere legal problem – it is existential, ontological – it is deep in the core of us – and only a lifetime in Christ, bathed continually in grace, will we find a beginning to the healing of its destruction and prepare us for the life God is giving us.

What does St. Paul mean when he says in Romans 13:11:

'Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.'

Or in 2 Corinthians 7:8-9
'As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting; for you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.'

Or most famously in Philippians 2:12-13?
'Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.'

And again in 1 Thessalonians 5:8-9?
'But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.'

The Church is described as "the fullness of him who fills all in all".(Eph 1:23). Why do you reject the "fullness of him"?

 

[bbyrd009]

perhaps because you hold a definition of "church" that is not "living stones," and thus excludes people that God does not exclude.

 

[Mungo]

perhaps because you hold a definition of "church" that is not "living stones," and thus excludes people that God does not exclude.

Perhaps if you thought a bit before you posted, and made your points clearer - and stated who you are addressing -then you might get some answers.

 

[Wormwood]

God doesnt nend church man does, a puppet on a string that is pulled when required,dance for us God, its sunday. He wont play mens silly games.

By that rationale, your own words are pointless. After all, God doesn't need man..including you. So who are you to teach anyone anything? If we listen to you, we are just submitting to the authority of another man and you are trying to build for yourself the very thing you are discounting with others. This is nothing but a word game with you, mj. You are simply tying to make yourself an authority by attacking others who have the position or platform you think you deserve. smh

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps if you thought a bit before you posted, and made your points clearer - and stated who you are addressing -then you might get some answers.

isn't it clear that we accept a definition of "church" that means "people who agree with me" instead of "people who seek to manifest good?"
that we trust the "successful" or "charismatic" to give us answers? When questions are what would better serve us?
So, you wanna play some more "dominance/submission" here, even though it was obvious enough where my comment was directed,
so i will tell you that i did my best to distance you from the last post to save your feelings, as i saw no need to put you on the spot,
and i posted in such a way that you could just ignore the post if you liked.

So then, you who thinks to give answers, what do you mean by "Church?" Don't you mean "Catholic church?"
Doesn't the "church" have to engage in penance, and Easter, and liturgies, and sacraments, in order to qualify in your eyes?
Don't they have to bend the knee and kiss the ring to be the "Church," as far as you are concerned?
i guess you hold that these are just ceremonial, and don't really mean anything, too, though, huh?
Why was Christ crucified, when the penalty for His crime was stoning?

 

[Mungo]

isn't it clear that we accept a definition of "church" that means "people who agree with me" instead of "people who seek to manifest good?"
that we trust the "successful" or "charismatic" to give us answers? When questions are what would better serve us?
So, you wanna play some more "dominance/submission" here, even though it was obvious enough where my comment was directed,
so i will tell you that i did my best to distance you from the last post to save your feelings, as i saw no need to put you on the spot,
and i posted in such a way that you could just ignore the post if you liked.

So then, you who thinks to give answers, what do you mean by "Church?" Don't you mean "Catholic church?"
Doesn't the "church" have to engage in penance, and Easter, and liturgies, and sacraments, in order to qualify in your eyes?
Don't they have to bend the knee and kiss the ring to be the "Church," as far as you are concerned?
i guess you hold that these are just ceremonial, and don't really mean anything, too, though, huh?
Why was Christ crucified, when the penalty for His crime was stoning?

I don't know why I bother to try and make sense of your posts. Quite frankly it's not worth the effort.

Anyway you are just trolling again.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't know why I bother to try and make sense of your posts. Quite frankly it's not worth the effort.

Anyway you are just trolling again.

hey, i am just asking questions, of an accuser. One of those questions not making sense to you?
Can someone who identifies as Atheist (or Muslim, or Protestant, or _________) be a Living Stone in your opinion, or not?
Your accusation tells me "no." So then, you have a concept of "Church" that requires acceptance of your beliefs, right?
So much so, that my question does not even make any sense to you, right?
Of course anyone who is not RCC is condemned, in your eyes.

If you can't answer questions, don't you think it might be better to ask some?
It seems to me that you are the one trolling here, again.
But i try to avoid that stuff--that you thrive on--
because you still think "Easter" is in the Book, too,
yet you apparently are still convinced that you are qualified to answer a question.

So, i guess this is coming off as combative or whatever,
but really if you can't answer questions, and you can't ask them either,
it seems that you are left with these crappy little accusative Proclamations
that no one is calling you out on.

The Church is "the fullness of Him who fills all in all" (Eph 1:23).
Maybe you will find It someday, when you fall off that horse?
Since you so obviously reject It right now.

Tbh i don't hold out much hope for you. You strike me as the type who talks tough as long as they have a crowd behind them. You are a gang member, in the toughest gang; only they are honest about it, where you could not possibly be.
This is how whores and tax collectors beat the religious into "heaven," wadr, which being a Tomorrow Person i guess that just confuses you too, because you still think heaven is some place that you might go to, after you die, right.

I'll let you have the last word here, as i already knew no one could tell you anything anyway, and i merely meant to point out that you have been provided a false definition of church, which you had already verified.
Do me a favor and come up with some new put down though if you would, ty.

 

[bbyrd009]

By that rationale, your own words are pointless. After all, God doesn't need man..including you. So who are you to teach anyone anything? If we listen to you, we are just submitting to the authority of another man and you are trying to build for yourself the very thing you are discounting with others. This is nothing but a word game with you, mj. You are simply tying to make yourself an authority by attacking others who have the position or platform you think you deserve. smh

i thought he did a nice job of it, too, personally. He did not call anyone out or accuse them, as he was accused, and as you accuse him here. It is certainly a poor Authoritarian who suggests that he needs no congregation to back him up, lol. He did not ask you to submit to any authority other than God's, did he? Or if so, i missed it. Maybe you guys need some new gang signs or something.

You do not get to define "Church," no matter how badly you need for your definition to be a valid one. And i would say that obviously God does not need churches to fulfill His purpose, which is not, as it turns out, collecting tithes from the unwary; He only requires a Church.
I won't even go onto how wrong it is for a Christian to even recognize some platform or "position," what a load that is.
"You commend yourselves, to each other."

C'mon guys, could you please just admit that you require worship already?
Or since i'm sure that would be a bit too bald a way to put it even for you, just reassure us how right that you must be. Yikes.
There is more salvation down at the pool hall imo. See you, guys.

 

[bbyrd009]

mjr, best wishes to you--but i wouldn't waste much time on haters intent on accusing you, when you are intent on debating concepts.
Imo you can confidently take that to mean that you already won, as much as you ever will. The only way to be accepted here is to reiterate the message of sin and death, i guess.

 

[Mungo]

hey, i am just asking questions, of an accuser. One of those questions not making sense to you?
Can someone who identifies as Atheist (or Muslim, or Protestant, or _________) be a Living Stone in your opinion, or not?
Your accusation tells me "no." So then, you have a concept of "Church" that requires acceptance of your beliefs, right?
So much so, that my question does not even make any sense to you, right?
Of course anyone who is not RCC is condemned, in your eyes.

If you can't answer questions, don't you think it might be better to ask some?
It seems to me that you are the one trolling here, again.
But i try to avoid that stuff--that you thrive on--
because you still think "Easter" is in the Book, too,
yet you apparently are still convinced that you are qualified to answer a question.

So, i guess this is coming off as combative or whatever,
but really if you can't answer questions, and you can't ask them either,
it seems that you are left with these crappy little accusative Proclamations
that no one is calling you out on.

The Church is "the fullness of Him who fills all in all" (Eph 1:23).
Maybe you will find It someday, when you fall off that horse?
Since you so obviously reject It right now.

Tbh i don't hold out much hope for you. You strike me as the type who talks tough as long as they have a crowd behind them. You are a gang member, in the toughest gang; only they are honest about it, where you could not possibly be.
This is how whores and tax collectors beat the religious into "heaven," wadr, which being a Tomorrow Person i guess that just confuses you too, because you still think heaven is some place that you might go to, after you die, right.

I'll let you have the last word here, as i already knew no one could tell you anything anyway, and i merely meant to point out that you have been provided a false definition of church, which you had already verified.
Do me a favor and come up with some new put down though if you would, ty.

There is a saying "Don't feed the trolls", so I think I will just ignore you from now on.

 

[mjrhealth]

There is a saying "Don't feed the trolls", so I think I will just ignore you from now on.

Yes isnt it odd, the people who end up ignoring people, by stating they will, usually do so because they are proven wrong and simply cant accept the truth. All teh pharisees did was plan to kill Jesus, because they couldnt ignore Him.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is a saying "Don't feed the trolls", so I think I will just ignore you from now on.

Why i'm subjecting myself to another blast from the grave i don't know, but that's all you got? You've ignored any engagement on about 20 concepts in the last two posts now anyway, so what's new? ty!

 

[Wormwood]

i thought he did a nice job of it, too, personally. He did not call anyone out or accuse them, as he was accused, and as you accuse him here. It is certainly a poor Authoritarian who suggests that he needs no congregation to back him up, lol. He did not ask you to submit to any authority other than God's, did he? Or if so, i missed it. Maybe you guys need some new gang signs or something.

You do not get to define "Church," no matter how badly you need for your definition to be a valid one. And i would say that obviously God does not need churches to fulfill His purpose, which is not, as it turns out, collecting tithes from the unwary; He only requires a Church.
I won't even go onto how wrong it is for a Christian to even recognize some platform or "position," what a load that is.
"You commend yourselves, to each other."

C'mon guys, could you please just admit that you require worship already?
Or since i'm sure that would be a bit too bald a way to put it even for you, just reassure us how right that you must be. Yikes.
There is more salvation down at the pool hall imo. See you, guys.

Ive had many conversations with mj. He rejects the Bible as the authoritative Word of God and views his own words as superior to Scripture. If that is the side you want to take, then feel free. But perhaps I am a bit more abrupt with him because of my understanding of his views that fall very far outside the range of orthodox Christianity.

 

[mjrhealth]

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you:but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:

He rejects the Bible as the authoritative Word of God

Fo one who says the bible is the authority of God, you sure do ignore a lot of it.

A coule of years ago, in the other house we lived, the JW'[s would come and visit, always let them in, enjoyed teh coversaiton, but you see Mungo your religion has nothing over anyone, for teh JW's always ended teh conversation in the same way, "therefore you must agree that the Lord has His church". nope sorry its not yours, than they would walk out. The last time I spoke to them and invited them in, they said no thasks, but thank you as you are one of the few that invited us in. WelI said, its like this you ahve nothing to offer them but your religion, go and Find Jesus ,when you find Him and go offer them Jesus they will listen. They never came back.

As I said before

Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

But that is all you do. I

If you want Jesus you have to come through us.

Did not Jesus say

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Do you have a better way to offer.

Im sure Wormwood, you understand coverings. Its a bit like a youg christian comes to Christ all thrilled and excietd, Jesus opens up His brolly to cover them and they are happy. Than along comes the religious man, pos open his brolly, shoves it under our Lords, says, "hey come with me, my brolly is so much nicer" come ill tell you lovely things, and so one is lost to religion, Slowly but surely one by one teh religious come and steal our Lords Lambs from Him, offering them dance, song, music and all the excitement they desire. And so Jesus closes His umbrella cries another tear for teh lost and waits for the next one to come along.

So what do either of your religions have to offer men that God cant provide. Is it salvation, is it life, you must have something that is better than Gods , musnt you?? OIr is it you have a better plan than God???

Again


1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

And what did he tell them

1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
1Sa 8:11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
1Sa 8:13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
1Sa 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
1Sa 8:15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
1Sa 8:16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
1Sa 8:17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

And again just as Jesus said

Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you
and yet again its exactly what you do, rejecting Christ who is to rule over you and teh peopel or as God puts it

Isa_30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

And when men come uder the covering of your church and its doctirnes

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

So Wormwood, where is it you get your authority from??

and views his own words as superior to Scripture

Really show me where??

a bit more abrupt with him because of my understanding of his views that fall very far outside the range of orthodox Christianity.

never noticed, and Jesus always wlaked on teh outside, as did teh disciples, Would you Wormwood be willing to toss all you have away, for time in teh desert, away from men, would you be willing to be despised of men for His sake, or is you position in church more important than your life

If we listen to you, we are just submitting to the authority of another man and you are trying to build for yourself the very thing you are discounting with others

Funny isnt it, You tell people they have to follow you, I suggest that people you follow only chirts. So who is the one doing teh building??

Mat_23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

One should not boast to loudly, God might hear.

 

[Mungo]

So Wormwood, where is it you get your authority from??

And where do you get your authority from?

 

[Mungo]

So what do either of your religions have to offer men that God cant provide. Is it salvation, is it life, you must have something that is better than Gods , musnt you?? OIr is it you have a better plan than God???

I've answered that already - see post #123 & post #125. But you failed to answer.