What does being born again mean?

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heartwashed

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what’s the water for?
Jn 3:5

why did they immediately go to the city and preach “accept Christ by faith alone as personal savior “ oh ya sorry they went to the river and baptized!
Going under the water is the only way that death, burial, and resurrection can be accurately portrayed as our identification with Christ in His own death, burial, and resurrection.

That's what the water is for...to accurately portray our identification with Christ.
 

theefaith

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Going under the water is the only way that death, burial, and resurrection can be accurately portrayed as our identification with Christ in His own death, burial, and resurrection.

That's what the water is for...to accurately portray our identification with Christ.

it don’t wash away sin?
 

amadeus

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it don’t wash away sin?
With the Hebrews, we have been brought out of bondage [in Egypt for us from sin]. But... even having come out of bondage and having passed through the water in following the leader God provided, most of us are still unable to get completely out of own ways and travel along His Way all of way into the promised land.


Have we made it out of Egypt [across the Red Sea] without getting wet? Can we make it into the Promised-land [over Jordan] also without getting wet?

Do we need to get baptized again until we are soaked in the waters? Should the waters soak us first to our ankles, and then to our knees and then to our loins, and then finally with depth enough to swim?

Jesus had to go through those waters also. Did He get wet?

Did Peter get wet when he walked on water? Would it have been better if he had not?


There is water [H2O] and there is Living water. What is the difference?
 

Bible Highlighter

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In both passages, the people were water-baptized in Jesus' Name before the apostles laid hands on them and prayed for them to receive the Holy Ghost.

I can understand at first glance that by looking at both Acts 8, and Acts 19, they appear to sound similar in that they both sound like they are each describing the same event (water baptism in Jesus' name with the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit), but I don't believe this is the case.

How so?

Well, while Acts 8 is describing water baptism in the name of Jesus with a subsequent action of laying on of hands to receive the Spirit, I don't believe this is the case in Acts 19:1-6.

I say this because there are many biblical evidences that lead us to conclude that Spirit baptism is the new baptism for the New Covenant.

Spirit Baptism is the one and only baptism in effect today.

Scriptural Support:

  1. Ephesians 4:5 says that there is “one baptism.” Obviously if you were just water baptized without the Spirit involved (Spirit baptism), you would not really be changed or converted. We know there is a Spirit baptism because both John the baptist and Jesus referred to it.
  2. 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”
  3. The prophecy and fulfilment of the new baptism: Jesus stated: “For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” (Acts of the Apostles 1:5). Note: This baptism of the Holy Ghost took place at Pentecost for the Jewish believers (See: Acts of the Apostles 2), and it happened for the Gentiles with Cornelius and his family in Acts 10 (Also see: Acts 11 about Peter’s recollection of this event; For Peter recalls the words of Jesus in Acts of the Apostles 1:5 when Cornelius and his family experienced the baptism of the Spirit after the gospel was preached to them) (Note: In Acts 10-11: Peter was just first learning of the baptism of the Spirit and he did not know yet that water baptism had ended at this point in his life).
  4. 1 Corinthians 1:17 says, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” If water baptism is what places us into Christ, then why is Paul teaching against it here? This must mean that the true baptism is Spirit baptism and that the baptism that Paul was not sent by Christ to put forth was water baptism. For the apostles were commissioned to baptize in Matthew 28:19, and yet, Paul was an apostle.
  5. Mark 16:16 says: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” If one believes Ephesians 2:8-9, and they also believe that water baptism is for salvation: Well, this is a problem if they are claiming that believers are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace and not of works according to Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5. For if baptism is a work we must do to be saved by God’s grace or as a part of the gospel, then it nullifies the first aspect in the salvation process in being saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ without the deeds of the Law. Thus, when Jesus refers to baptism here to be saved he is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Which takes place every time a person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior). The Holy Spirit is a part of our salvation (See: Romans 8:9, Romans 8:11, and Romans 8:13; Ephesians 1:13-14).
  6. The Holy Spirit is compared to water; Water baptism (an OT ritual) is a picture that points ahead to the true baptism (i.e. Spirit baptism). Jesus told the woman at the well, “Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” (John 4:13-14). In John 7:38-39, we learn that the Spirit are the rivers of living water. In other words, the Holy Spirit is the living waters that can live in a person that Jesus was talking about with the woman at the well.
  7. Hebrews 9:10 says, “Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” The word “washings” is the Greek word “baptismos” (βαπτισμός) (Check out here for the Strong’s definition). In other words, Hebrews 9:10 is saying that diverse baptisms (washings) were imposed on believers until the time of reformation. Meaning, water baptism will give way or pass away until the time of reformation (Which means that Spirit baptism is now the one and only true baptism for today).
  8. Ezekiel 36:25-27 says,
    [25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” This clean water that is sprinkled upon them so that they would be clean is referring to the immersion (baptism) of the Holy Spirit when and when we receive a new heart with new desires (become born again). This water is not water baptism but Spirit baptism that transforms a person’s life.
  9. Ephesians 1:13 says,
    “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,” This lets us know that by hearing the gospel, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. This is being immersed into the Spirit for the first time sort of like with Cornelius and his household (Note: This does not mean we will speak in tongues, but we will have a change of the heart and a peace like never. before). In addition, Paul makes a distinction between the gospel, and baptism in 1 Corinthians 1:17. We are saved by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and baptism is not a part of that message..............................................................................................
  10. .Jesus did not water baptize anyone. Some Christian groups teach that water baptism is for salvation. Yet, if this is the case, then they would be saying that Jesus did not save anyone because He did not water baptize. However, we know that Jesus does baptize, but it is Spirit baptism and not water baptism. For John the Baptist said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:” (Matthew 3:11).
You said:
So, they did not pray for them to receive the Holy Ghost apart from water-baptism in Jesus' Name as a point of contact for faith.

Baptism is not the point of contact for faith.
We see plenty of people forgiven of sins and or verses mentioned without any water baptism involved.

You said:
Acts 2:38,

Another way to interpret Acts 2:38, is to understand that the English word “for” can mean “because.”

See definition 14 here at KingJamesBibleDictionary.com

King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - For

Meaning, Acts 2:38 is saying repent and be baptized because of the remission of sin (Which was accomplished by Jesus Christ upon the cross).

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Again, in Acts 19:1-7, there is the issue of redundancy.

Act 19:1, And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Act 19:2, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3, And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4, Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5, When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6, And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Act 19:7, And all the men were about twelve.


If "baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus" here, is baptism in the Holy Spirit, how then did the Holy Ghost come upon them one verse later since, if your contention is valid, they were baptized in the Holy Spirit only a moment before? Were there two baptisms in the Holy Spirit? Why were two baptisms necessary?

First, it appears that the word “And” in Acts 19:6 may be archaic here from the Old 1600's English.

For example: The word “And” starts off the sentence in both Genesis 2:5, and Genesis 2:7. Yet, they each are describing a new narrative in detail from the previous chapter.

Like in Genesis 2:7, it starts off talking about the formation of man out of the ground (when there was no man to till the ground). However, this is not a secondary Adam or a second man being created (because the first man died off) but it is still referring to the first man created back in Genesis 1:26-27.

Genesis 2:7 is merely describing the details of Genesis 1:26-27.
We see something similar between Acts 19:5 and Acts 19:6.
Acts 19:5 is like Genesis 1:26-27 giving us the over all event, while Acts 19:6 is the details of that event (like Genesis 2:5-25 is the details of Genesis 1:26-27).

Second, the same Greek word “τέ” (Strong's G5037) for the English word “and” can be translated as the word “for” (As we see in Romans 7:7).

In fact, if you were to read through the King James Bible and replace the English word “and” for the English word "for” in certain cases, you would see that they can be interchangeable at times (Meaning you can use one or the other) (For example: Compare Ephesians 2:6 between the NLT and KJB).

So this is how I would interpret Acts of the Apostles 19:5-6

[5] “When they heard this [Paul's explanation of the gospel in Acts 19:4], they were [immediately] baptized in the name [person, authority, or power] of the Lord Jesus. [6] And [For] when Paul had laid his hands upon them [to mediate the Spirit], the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” (Acts of the Apostles 19:5-6).​

Again, the English word “And” beginning in Acts 19:6 is not an issue here because we see the word “And” used to describe a new narrative on the man from Genesis 1 being created in more detail in Genesis 2:5-25. The word “And” in Genesis 2:7 does not suggest two Adams anymore than the word “And” must suggest that there are two baptisms between Acts 19:5, and Acts 19:6.

For I am sure you can read Acts 19:5-6 with no contradiction if both verses referred to a water baptism. Meaning, Acts 19:5 would be the overall description of water baptism, and Acts 19:6 would be the details of the water baptism event with Paul laying his hands on them in being water baptized.

[5] “When they heard this, they were baptized [water baptized] in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them [so as to water baptize them], the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” (Acts of the Apostles 19:5-6) (Water baptism interpretation).​

So if the passage can be read in this way with no contradiction, then both Acts 19:5, and Acts 19:6 could just as equally be referring both to Spirit baptism, as well.

[5] “When they heard this, they were baptized [into the Spirit] in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them [so as to baptize them into the Spirit], the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” (Acts of the Apostles 19:5-6) (Spirit baptism interpretation).​

So as we can see, there is no contradiction here. The passage could be read both ways, but the question is… “Which interpretation is the correct one?”

I take the Spirit baptism interpretation because of the testimony of the rest of Scripture stacks in favor for Spirit baptism being the New Covenant baptism (that eventually replaced John’s water baptism that was Christianized in the infancy of the early church).
 
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Bible Highlighter

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You are also assuming that Paul, a mere human being, had the power to baptize people in the Holy Ghost. Only God can do that.

When we are baptized by another human being, it is definitely in water.

Here are the four pieces of Scripture in all that talk about the laying on of hands associated with the giving of the Holy Spirit.

Deuteronomy 34:9
Now Joshua the son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him; and the sons of Israel listened to him and did as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Acts 8:17-19
Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 9:17
So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
 
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heartwashed

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Ephesians 4:5 says that there is “one baptism.”

So, are you saying that baptism in water is not a valid form of baptism?

For Holy Spirit baptism to be the one baptism spoken of in Ephesians 4:5, water baptism would have to not be baptism at all.

Jesus stated: “For John truly baptized with water;

I believe that there is one triune baptism in holy scripture.

one baptism in:

1) water

2) the Spirit

3) fire.


1 Corinthians 1:17 says, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” If water baptism is what places us into Christ, then why is Paul teaching against it here? This must mean that the true baptism is Spirit baptism and that the baptism that Paul was not sent by Christ to put forth was water baptism. For the apostles were commissioned to baptize in Matthew 28:19, and yet, Paul was an apostle.

I have already addressed this argument.

For if baptism is a work

Baptism is not a work; rather it is a point of contact for faith.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 says,
[25] Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. [26] A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [27] And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.” This clean water that is sprinkled upon them so that they would be clean is referring to the immersion (baptism) of the Holy Spirit when and when we receive a new heart with new desires (become born again). This water is not water baptism but Spirit baptism that transforms a person’s life.

There is no reason to believe that the "clean water" being spoken of in this scripture is referring to anything other than clean water.

Jesus did not water baptize anyone. Some Christian groups teach that water baptism is for salvation. Yet, if this is the case, then they would be saying that Jesus did not save anyone because He did not water baptize. However, we know that Jesus does baptize, but it is Spirit baptism and not water baptism. For John the Baptist said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:” (Matthew 3:11).

I beg to differ.

Jhn 4:1, When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Jhn 4:2, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)


Baptism is not the point of contact for faith.
We see plenty of people forgiven of sins and or verses mentioned without any water baptism involved.

Again I would ask you to consider the reality of what it says in Acts of the Apostles 2:39 as compared to Romans 8:30.

We are not justified and then glorified unless we are first called.

The conditional promise of the Holy Ghost is given to as many as the Lord our God shall call; the condition being repentance and baptism in Jesus' Name.

Another way to interpret Acts 2:38, is to understand that the English word “for” can mean “because.”

See definition 14 here at KingJamesBibleDictionary.com

King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - For

Meaning, Acts 2:38 is saying repent and be baptized because of the remission of sin (Which was accomplished by Jesus Christ upon the cross).

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I don't trust any of these contentions on the basis of the idea that the kjv is inaccurate but that it should say something different because of the Greek.

I believe that the kjv gives Holy Spirit commentary on the meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek.
 
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heartwashed

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First, it appears that the word “And” in Acts 19:6 may be archaic here from the Old 1600's English.

For example: The word “And” starts off the sentence in both Genesis 2:5, and Genesis 2:7. Yet, they each are describing a new narrative in detail from the previous chapter.

Like in Genesis 2:7, it starts off talking about the formation of man out of the ground (when there was no man to till the ground). However, this is not a secondary Adam or a second man being created (because the first man died off) but it is still referring to the first man created back in Genesis 1:26-27.

Genesis 2:7 is merely describing the details of Genesis 1:26-27.
We see something similar between Acts 19:5 and Acts 19:6.
Acts 19:5 is like Genesis 1:26-27 giving us the over all event, while Acts 19:6 is the details of that event (like Genesis 2:5-25 is the details of Genesis 1:26-27).

Second, the same Greek word “τέ” (Strong's G5037) for the English word “and” can be translated as the word “for” (As we see in Romans 7:7).

In fact, if you were to read through the King James Bible and replace the English word “and” for the English word "for” in certain cases, you would see that they can be interchangeable at times (Meaning you can use one or the other) (For example: Compare Ephesians 2:6 between the NLT and KJB).

So this is how I would interpret Acts of the Apostles 19:5-6

[5] “When they heard this [Paul's explanation of the gospel in Acts 19:4], they were [immediately] baptized in the name [person, authority, or power] of the Lord Jesus. [6] And [For] when Paul had laid his hands upon them [to mediate the Spirit], the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” (Acts of the Apostles 19:5-6).​

Again, the English word “And” beginning in Acts 19:6 is not an issue here because we see the word “And” used to describe a new narrative on the man from Genesis 1 being created in more detail in Genesis 2:5-25. The word “And” in Genesis 2:7 does not suggest two Adams anymore than the word “And” must suggest that there are two baptisms between Acts 19:5, and Acts 19:6.

For I am sure you can read Acts 19:5-6 with no contradiction if both verses referred to a water baptism. Meaning, Acts 19:5 would be the overall description of water baptism, and Acts 19:6 would be the details of the water baptism event with Paul laying his hands on them in being water baptized.

[5] “When they heard this, they were baptized [water baptized] in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them [so as to water baptize them], the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” (Acts of the Apostles 19:5-6) (Water baptism interpretation).​

So if the passage can be read in this way with no contradiction, then both Acts 19:5, and Acts 19:6 could just as equally be referring both to Spirit baptism, as well.

[5] “When they heard this, they were baptized [into the Spirit] in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had laid his hands upon them [so as to baptize them into the Spirit], the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” (Acts of the Apostles 19:5-6) (Spirit baptism interpretation).​

So as we can see, there is no contradiction here. The passage could be read both ways, but the question is… “Which interpretation is the correct one?”

I take the Spirit baptism interpretation because of the testimony of the rest of Scripture stacks in favor for Spirit baptism being the New Covenant baptism (that eventually replaced John’s water baptism that was Christianized in the infancy of the early church).

Again, when you try to say that the scripture does not mean what it says or say what it means because this or that word was inaccurately translated, I have a problem with you.

Paul said it in two places that arguing about words is to no profit and to the subverting of the hearers (1 Timothy 6:3-5, 2 Timothy 2:14).
 

Bible Highlighter

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Again, when you try to say that the scripture does not mean what it says or say what it means because this or that word was inaccurately translated, I have a problem with you.

You misunderstand me. I am not saying that the Bible is inaccurately translated. The use of archaic words does not mean that those archaic words are inaccurate.

You said:
Paul said it in two places that arguing about words is to no profit and to the subverting of the hearers (1 Timothy 6:3-5, 2 Timothy 2:14).

I can say the same. You say baptism is the point of contact of faith. Yet, we see many examples and verses in the Bible about Initial Salvation without water baptism.
 

heartwashed

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You misunderstand me. I am not saying that the Bible is inaccurately translated. The use of archaic words does not mean that those archaic words are inaccurate.

Then accept those words as being authoritative.

I can say the same. You say baptism is the point of contact of faith. Yet, we see many examples and verses in the Bible about Initial Salvation without water baptism.

I am not arguing about any words here. I will preach to you literally from the King James Version.

Again, I would ask you to consider what I said in a post above about Acts of the Apostles 2:39 and Romans 8:30.

Again I would ask you to consider the reality of what it says in Acts of the Apostles 2:39 as compared to Romans 8:30.

We are not justified and then glorified unless we are first called.

The conditional promise of the Holy Ghost is given to as many as the Lord our God shall call; the condition being repentance and baptism in Jesus' Name.
 

Bible Highlighter

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So, are you saying that baptism in water is not a valid form of baptism?

The problem is making everything written in a historical context (like the book of Acts) as applying to us, when it was written to a specific people group and written to a particular point in time (that involved the growth and learning of the early church).

Anyways, water baptism was 100% valid when John the baptist had done so.
After the cross, Jewish followers of Christ continued the practice in the infancy of the church based on a misunderstanding of the words of Jesus (Although the Lord was still able to use them despite this misunderstanding). When the apostle Paul came on to the scene, he clarified the point on the true one and only baptism that was to be for the New Covenant (Which is what Jesus intended for the great commission mentioned in Mark 16:16).

For Holy Spirit baptism to be the one baptism spoken of in Ephesians 4:5, water baptism would have to not be baptism at all.

No. Water baptism was of John, and when the New Covenant came, it was intended by our Lord Jesus that Spirit baptism is now the one and only baptism. John the baptist even told you he baptized with water and that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit.

You said:
Baptism is not a work; rather it is a point of contact for faith.

Not true. While the Old Covenant is not in effect anymore for us believers today under the New Covenant, when it was in effect: The Gentiles had to be circumcised in the Old Testament to become a Jew. For them, that would have been the contact of faith according to baptismal salvationists. But Paul does not agree with that line of thinking. Paul says in Romans 4:3, “...Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” Then when we read Romans 4:9-12 we see Paul make his point about how this belief (faith) was accounted to him as righteousness when he was not yet circumcised.

Romans 4:9-12
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

So Abraham believed God first and it was accounted to him as righteousness BEFORE he was circumcised (Which is a work of faith). Abraham was not justified by works (Works ALONE Salvationism) without God's grace through faith in the coming Messiah. Abraham first believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The same is true for us believers today. We are first initially saved solely by God's grace through a belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior. We did not do anything or perform any ritual like work or performance to get into the Kingdom. For by grace are ye saved and not that of yourselves. It is the gift of God and not of works. Note: I believe works of faith follow as a part of the secondary aspect of our salvation in the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit. But in our Initial Salvation it is not of any kind of works (whatsoever). We are saved initially by God's grace through faith without works. If this is not the case, then Paul's words don't make any sense.

You said:
There is no reason to believe that the "clean water' being spoken of in this scripture is referring to anything other than clean water.

That makes no sense. No water was clean back then unless God performed a miracle for God to say it was 100% clean. The context is talking about how God will give us a new heart, and put His Spirit within you. Also, sprinkling of water is not John's water baptism. So the sprinkling of clean water is the rivers of living water (Which is the Holy Spirit) cleansing us. To read water baptism into this passage makes a total mess of what the context is saying. But baptismal salvationists tend to look at the Scriptures in a way to see water baptism where no actual water baptism is actually mentioned.

You said:
I beg to differ.

Jhn 4:1, When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Jhn 4:2, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Not sure how your highlighting this passage helps you. My point is that Jesus did not water baptize anyone and that still is true to my point. The disciples of Jesus baptizing others does not mean Jesus baptized others. John 4:1 is speaking in figurative terms from what the Pharisees had HEARD (of what others said), and John 4:2 is clarifying things literally in reality. To deny this is to deny the passage.

Again I would ask you to consider the reality of what it says in Acts of the Apostles 2:39 as compared to Romans 8:30.

Peter did not even know yet that the Gentiles would be included in God's program of salvation until he had a vision and he was told to go to a Gentile's house (Cornelius). So the words in Acts of the Apostles 2:39 about the promise was for the Jew at this point in time. The Jewish Christians still were steeped in the traditions of the old ways and the Law of Moses.

We are not justified and then glorified unless we are first called.

You see water as the call. I see God calling us to hear His Word in Scripture and to receive those words so as to believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and call upon the name of the Lord so as to be saved (Romans 10:9, Romans 10:12-13).

You said:
The conditional promise of the Holy Ghost is given to as many as the Lord our God shall call; the condition being repentance and baptism in Jesus' Name.

But we read about lots of cases in Scripture in the NT about how one can be saved without water baptism.
Jesus forgave others their sins without water baptism. Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be with Him in paradise (and no water baptism was necessary). John 1:12 says “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” Listen to the last part. To even to them that believe on his name. BOOM. Your belief in water immersion to be saved is blown to pieces. This means that a man who is dying on his hospital bed can simply believe in Jesus as their Savior and be saved. No water is necessary.

I don't trust any of these contentions on the basis of the idea that the kjv is inaccurate but that it should say something different because of the Greek.

I actually believe the KJB is the Word of God and is without error. But that does not mean that it does not have archaic words. Archaic words does not mean something is incorrect. Archaic means outdated or old, and not incorrect.

You said:
I believe that the kjv gives Holy Spirit commentary on the meaning of the original Hebrew and Greek.

I would agree. But there are many archaic words in the KJB that we have to update.

As an example: Check out the following book here:

https://www.amazon.com/Archaic-Words-Authorized-Version-Laurence/dp/0982369735
 
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heartwashed

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The problem is making everything written in a historical context (like the book of Acts) as applying to us, when it was written to a specific people group and written to a particular point in time (that involved the growth and learning of the early church).

Anyways, water baptism was 100% valid when John the baptist had done so.
After the cross, Jewish followers of Christ continued the practice in the infancy of the church based on a misunderstanding of the words of Jesus (Although the Lord was still able to use them despite this misunderstanding). When the apostle Paul came on to the scene, he clarified the point on the true one and only baptism that was to be for the New Covenant (Which is what Jesus intended for the great commission mentioned in Mark 16:16).

Peter wrote 1 Peter in A.D. 62-64. To give you a perspective, Paul wrote Romans in A.D. 57.

Now, in 1 Peter 3:20-21, it is clear that the baptism being spoken of that "doth also now save us" (v.21) is in water (v.20).

No. Water baptism was of John, and when the New Covenant came, it was intended by our Lord Jesus that Spirit baptism is now the one and only baptism. John the baptist even told you he baptized with water and that Jesus would baptize with the Spirit.

See above.

Not true. While the Old Covenant is not in effect anymore for us believers today under the New Covenant, when it was in effect: The Gentiles had to be circumcised in the Old Testament to become a Jew. For them, that would have been the contact of faith according to baptismal salvationists. But Paul does not agree with that line of thinking. Paul says in Romans 4:3, “...Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.” Then when we read Romans 4:9-12 we see Paul make his point about how this belief (faith) was accounted to him as righteousness when he was not yet circumcised.

Romans 4:9-12
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

So Abraham believed God first and it was accounted to him as righteousness BEFORE he was circumcised (Which is a work of faith). Abraham was not justified by works (Works ALONE Salvationism) without God's grace through faith in the coming Messiah. Abraham first believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The same is true for us believers today. We are first initially saved solely by God's grace through a belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior. We did not do anything or perform any ritual like work or performance to get into the Kingdom. For by grace are ye saved and not that of yourselves. It is the gift of God and not of works. Note: I believe works of faith follow as a part of the secondary aspect of our salvation in the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit. But in our Initial Salvation it is not of any kind of works (whatsoever). We are saved initially by God's grace through faith without works. If this is not the case, then Paul's words don't make any sense.

Water baptism is indeed a point of contact for faith.

Col 2:11, In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12, Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


Clearly, Acts 2:38, according to Acts 2:39, is speaking of a promise which I will say is conditional here.

That makes no sense. No water was clean back then unless God performed a miracle for God to say it was 100% clean. The context is talking about how God will give us a new heart, and put His Spirit within you. Also, sprinkling of water is not John's water baptism. So the sprinkling of clean water is the rivers of living water (Which is the Holy Spirit) cleansing us. To read water baptism into this passage makes a total mess of what the context is saying. But baptismal salvationists tend to look at the Scriptures in a way to see water baptism where no actual water baptism is actually mentioned.

Rain water was clean water; filtered by the process of evaporation and condensation.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 can also be taken as a mandate to sprinkle clean water on someone in order to bring about regeneration; for in the passage, the result is that the stony heart is taken out of the flesh and one is given an heart of flesh; they are given a new heart and a new spirit; so that they might walk in God's statutes and in His judgments. All as the result of clean water being sprinkled on them.

Of course faith needs to be a factor as I already showed you out of Colossians 2:11-12.


Not sure how your highlighting this passage helps you. My point is that Jesus did not water baptize anyone and that still is true to my point. The disciples of Jesus baptizing others does not mean Jesus baptized others. John 4:1 is speaking in figurative terms from what the Pharisees had HEARD (of what others said), and John 4:2 is clarifying things literally in reality. To deny this is to deny the passage.

Jesus "made and baptized more disciples than John".

Though it was not by Jesus' hands, the water baptism was by Jesus' authority.

Peter did not even know yet that the Gentiles would be included in God's program of salvation until he had a vision and he was told to go to a Gentile's house (Cornelius). So the words in Acts of the Apostles 2:39 about the promise was for the Jew at this point in time. The Jewish Christians still were steeped in the traditions of the old ways and the Law of Moses.

Peter said that it was to "you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off."

If you want to say that the latter part of that is referring only to Jews, I don't think that you are thinking clearly.

You see water as the call. I see God calling us to hear His Word in Scripture and to receive those words so as to believe the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, and call upon the name of the Lord so as to be saved (Romans 10:9, Romans 10:12-13).

Yes, I see water as the call. It is a conditional promise given to as many as the Lord our God shall call (Acts 2:39). And the condition of the promise (which is remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost) is repentance and baptism in Jesus' Name.

But we read about lots of cases in Scripture in the NT about how one can be saved without water baptism.

So, I used to teach that water baptism was only one means of receiving remission of sins and the Holy Ghost, rather than the only means.

However, in comparing Acts 2:39 to Romans 8:30, I found that one is not justified and then glorified unless they are called; and that in order to be called, one must receive baptism in Jesus' Name.

Since this is pretty clear-cut, I consider that the instances where it seems to be that people are saved apart from baptism in Jesus' Name, are mere arguments that will be demolished by the weapons of our warfare; which are not carnal but mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds.

Jesus forgave others their sins without water baptism. Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be with Him in paradise (and no water baptism was necessary). John 1:12 says “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” Listen to the last part. To even to them that believe on his name. BOOM. Your belief in water immersion to be saved is blown to pieces. This means that a man who is dying on his hospital bed can simply believe in Jesus as their Savior and be saved. No water is necessary.

It remains that Acts 2:38 is a conditional promise that is given to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

And that if someone is not called, they will not be justified and neither will they be glorified.

I also used to teach that in Mark 16:16, if you believe and are not baptized, you should not perish (John 3:16);

While if you believe and are baptized, you shall be saved.

So, bringing it to that point, I would say that belief apart from baptism may save you but there is no guarantee (it is "iffy").

Whereas baptism in Jesus' Name has the ability to provide for you absolute assurance of salvation.
 

theefaith

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No; it makes us Christian;

And there are Christians who are not catholic.

the new covenant is catholic
Universal

Major covenants!

God initiated each covenant and the mediator always remains on earth mediating the covenant except for Christ who made Peter His personal representative and vicar! (Matt 16:18)

Adam
(Marriage covenant)

Noah
(Family covenant)

Abraham
(Tribal covenant)

Moses:
(National covenant)

Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)

New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18

Universal (Catholic)
World universal

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal) All men!

Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people. All men!

Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world. All men!

Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. All men!

Lk 2: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. All men!

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (All people universal) All men!

1 Tim 2:5 one mediator

Jn 10:16 One new covenant church

Only Jesus Christ has authority to found the church on Peter and the apostles! Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18
Jn 20:21 eph 2:20

All others are heretical sects the tradition of men!

Christ is king and established a kingdom!

Obedience to the apostles who have the jurisdictional authority to govern the church and administer the kingdom is obedience to Christ!
 

theefaith

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If catholicism were universal it would include the Protestant.

you are free to unite to Christ by faith and baptism

Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 and not the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!