What does it mean to be born again?

[Lizbeth]

I like and mostly agree with this. I still think you have some confusion about where you are and that you claim already for yourself some verses that aren’t yet your experience but are rather promises to hope for. We hope for what we don’t yet have, not what we do have.

?? You are very much mistaken in what you are assuming I'm claiming for myself, apart from the foundation....which is perfect, righteous and holy....FLAWLESS... since it is Christ in us and HIS righteousness thus being imputed to us as a gift. The difficulty is in walking in that, manifesting it. We need to have the veil of our flesh (nature) torn like Jesus did as we FOLLOW HIM through the veil of His torn flesh into the holy place. Hence the bride analogy too, what it means to be the bride of Christ and circumcised in heart, with veil of flesh torn or cut away. No wonder Zipporah said to Moses, thou art a bloody bridegroom to me. And no wonder women suffer being married to men....like china teacups married to the proverbial bull in the china shop, lol....God's natural creation tells the story of the spiritual. And worth it all in the end.

There seem to be a lot of wrong assumptions and people not understanding each other with this whole subject. I've tried so hard and for so long to try and sort it all out but it's just too big an undertaking for my aging and pickled brain. So I just have to keep it simple and stick with what the scrips say and the picture they paint. Yep, I need the Lord to "draw me a picture." ha-ha!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Ah, I found it! A man named John Gill. I’m off to look for a book.

Ah, I won’t be able to slog through it for the good I might find. I don’t have the patience for it.

 

[Lizbeth]

A powerful statement
J.

Just was trying to encapsulate how I'm understanding this. Hope it's right, or at least mainly.

 

[Episkopos]

?? You are very much mistaken in what you are assuming I'm claiming for myself, apart from the foundation....which is perfect, righteous and holy....FLAWLESS... since it is Christ in us and HIS righteousness thus being imputed to us as a gift. The difficulty is in walking in that, manifesting it. We need to have the veil of our flesh (nature) torn like Jesus did as we FOLLOW HIM through the veil of His torn flesh into the holy place. Hence the bride analogy too, what it means to be the bride of Christ and circumcised in heart, with veil of flesh torn or cut away. No wonder Zipporah said to Moses, thou art a bloody bridegroom to me. And no wonder women suffer being married to men....like china teacups married to the proverbial bull in the china shop, lol....God's natural creation tells the story of the spiritual. And worth it all in the end.

There seem to be a lot of wrong assumptions and people not understanding each other with this whole subject. I've tried so hard and for so long to try and sort it all out but it's just too big an undertaking for my aging and pickled brain. So I just have to keep it simple and stick with what the scrips say and the picture they paint. Yep, I need the Lord to "draw me a picture." ha-ha!

I think your view could be summed up in phrases such as "the power of positive thinking"....or else "presuming is the same as being"

Does that kind of dogma help in our daily walk? Maybe in some cases where there is a natural tendency to be pessimistic. But as a doctrine it is disastrous...hence my calling it out. Most people are not pessimistic about themselves. They think the world of themselves. So what may take someone out of a deep valley will only add to the lofty attitude of someone who is already on a carnal elevation (a mountain or a hill).

John the Baptist came as a fore-runner to call people to repentance...making the mountains LOW and lifting up the valleys to make the path of the Lord straight in the desert.

Doctrines that only do uplifting of the flesh...may seem to help for those stuck in a valley...but do great harm to those who have an exaggerated view of themselves. This is why I must correct your way of distorting the biblical message. You have to consider that the truth goes beyond your own needs and experience.

ALL carnal understanding can only go one way. But the truth takes each one of us where we are and brings light into our present darkness. Reformation theology is wrong because it uplifts the flesh. Again, the overly meek might gain something from that temporarily. But never let those so uplifted in their carnal aspirations become teachers.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

?? You are very much mistaken in what you are assuming I'm claiming for myself, apart from the foundation....which is perfect, righteous and holy....FLAWLESS... since it is Christ in us and HIS righteousness thus being imputed to us as a gift. The difficulty is in walking in that, manifesting it. We need to have the veil of our flesh (nature) torn like Jesus did as we FOLLOW HIM through the veil of His torn flesh into the holy place. Hence the bride analogy too, what it means to be the bride of Christ and circumcised in heart, with veil of flesh torn or cut away. No wonder Zipporah said to Moses, thou art a bloody bridegroom to me. And no wonder women suffer being married to men....like china teacups married to the proverbial bull in the china shop, lol....God's natural creation tells the story of the spiritual. And worth it all in the end.

There seem to be a lot of wrong assumptions and people not understanding each other with this whole subject. I've tried so hard and for so long to try and sort it all out but it's just too big an undertaking for my aging and pickled brain. So I just have to keep it simple and stick with what the scrips say and the picture they paint. Yep, I need the Lord to "draw me a picture." ha-ha!

You put down some verses - very good verses - and said they were the foundation we were to begin from. But some of the verses were very far beyond the foundation. Some of them speak of not just being led by the Spirit but of actually walking IN the Spirit. And those verses arent the foundation we begin from but are past that. They are past the renewing of our mind and the learning of righteousness and the practice of trust.

 

[Johann]

Just was trying to encapsulate how I'm understanding this. Hope it's right, or at least mainly.

Nothing wrong with it, as I can relate to this experience.
As we grow older we need to stay with the K.I.S.S. principle, keep it strictly simple.

2Co 1:12 For our boast is this, the testimony of our conscience, that we behaved in the world with simplicity and godly sincerity, not by earthly wisdom but by the grace of God, and supremely so toward you.
2Co 1:13 For we are not writing to you anything other than what you read and understand and I hope you will fully understand—
2Co 1:14 just as you did partially understand us—that on the day of our Lord Jesus you will boast of us as we will boast of you.

And if the gospel is veiled..

2Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
2Co 4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2Co 4:5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Christian fortitude
is concerned about things which are apparently the will of God, and is exercised in obedience
to it; for the sake of a man’s doing his duty, and with a pure view to the honour and glory
of God; trusting in and depending upon his power, strength, and grace, to carry him through
whatever he is called to do or suffer in the performance of it; and from which he is not to

This is the part that thoroughly grabbed me, and especially “things which are apparently the will of God.”
I guess because of something I just went through. I’ve been getting and feeling sick, off and on, for maybe…two months or so. Then I began to feel somewhat stronger and almost immediately jacked out my lower back and tore the fibers of a disc. It’s happened to me two other times in my life. It’s excruciating pain. For more than 10 days, I barely slept because the pain would return in spasms about every 7 to 15 minutes and wake me shrieking in pain over and over. I stopped praying about it and said, if You did not will for me to be in this pain You would have answered my prayer to abate it, so I will take it as Your will and I will try to discern what it’s for my good for.
The next morning, it was lessened some so that it was bearable finally and I somehow discovered a way to put myself in traction with the bars on my beds headboard so the spasms could be quickly alleviated rather than continue.

Now, two mornings after that, I understand what He was practicing me in. Abnegation of self will. EVEN among pain. And my prayers were perfectly all right, but obedience to His will when it was the opposite of my will, even in suffering, was the exercise.

And it’s brought me such peace and a feeling of closeness to Jesus as a small taste of His pain and His obedience of being willing to suffer even though He prayed the cup be taken from Him. He has done me a great favor.

 

[Johann]

This is the part that thoroughly grabbed me, and especially “things which are apparently the will of God.”
I guess because of something I just went through. I’ve been getting and feeling sick, off and on, for maybe…two months or so. Then I began to feel somewhat stronger and almost immediately jacked out my lower back and tore the fibers of a disc. It’s happened to me two other times in my life. It’s excruciating pain. For more than 10 days, I barely slept because the pain would return in spasms about every 7 to 15 minutes and wake me shrieking in pain over and over. I stopped praying about it and said, if You did not will for me to be in this pain You would have answered my prayer to abate it, so I will take it as Your will and I will try to discern what it’s for my good for.
The next morning, it was lessened some so that it was bearable finally and I somehow discovered a way to put myself in traction with the bars on my beds headboard so the spasms could be quickly alleviated rather than continue.

Now, two mornings after that, I understand what He was practicing me in. Abnegation of self will. EVEN among pain. And my prayers were perfectly all right, but obedience to His will when it was the opposite of my will, even in suffering, was the exercise.

And it’s brought me such peace and a feeling of closeness to Jesus as a small taste of His pain and His obedience of being willing to suffer even though He prayed the cup be taken from Him. He has done me a great favor.

3a5a4. For these things may believers pray to God with an holy confidence, believing
they shall have the petitions they ask of him; who has raised, “When the poor and needy
seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the Lord will hear them”,
their cries and prayers, and supply their wants; yea, if need be, will rather go out of the
common course of nature and providence than that they shall want (Isa. 41:17, 18; 43:19,
20), and if earthly parents, “who are evil”, know how to “give good gifts” to their children,
who ask them of them, our Lord has taught believers in him to reason after this manner,
“how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?”
And if he will give to them the Spirit, and spiritual things, then much more may they expect
earthly and temporal things from him they stand in need of (Luke 11:13).
3a5a5. To trust and confidence in God with respect to those things, they may be encouraged by the experience of themselves and others. Good old Jacob in his dying moments expressed, in very strong language, his experience of the divine goodness throughout the whole
of his life; “The God which fed me all my life long unto this day—the Angel which redeemed
me from all evil, bless the lads” (Gen. 48:15, 16).

David frequently takes notice of the goodness
of God to him, in providence, to encourage his own faith in him, and that of others; “Thou
art my hope, O Lord God, thou art my trust from my youth!” and from what he had experienced in time past, even from the very dawn of life, he strongly thus concluded; “Surely
goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life” (Ps. 71:5, 6; 23:6), and every
believer may look back on the past goodness of God unto him, and encourage himself in
the Lord his God, in expectation and confidence of future favors; for their heavenly Father
knows they have need of these things, and therefore will bestow them on them (Matthew
6:32, 33).
3a5b. Secondly, there is great encouragement to trust in the Lord for spiritual things;
that is, for after supplies of grace; for faith respects present blessings of grace enjoyed, but
trust and confidence future ones; and which may be depended on; since God is the God of
all grace, whose grace is sufficient for his people now and hereafter; who has promised to
give more grace as they want it; and has set up a throne of grace, to which they are encouraged
to come with boldness, that they may find grace and mercy to help them in time of need.
The covenant of grace is filled with all spiritual blessings, and promises of them, which are
87
Chapter 7. Of Trust and Confidence in God
sure to all the spiritual seed of Christ; Christ has them all in his hands for his people, and
will give them things pertaining to life and godliness.
3a5c. Thirdly, there is encouragement to trust in the Lord for eternal things; for,
3a5c1. God has chosen his in Christ to the enjoyment of them; they are ordained unto
eternal life; appointed unto salvation; chosen through sanctification of the Spirit and belief
of the truth unto it; and the purpose of God, according to election, stands sure, not upon
the ground of works, but upon the will of him that calls; his purposes can never be frustrated
and disappointed; and therefore the chosen ones may be confident of eternal glory and
happiness
Gill

 

[marks]

Some of them speak of not just being led by the Spirit but of actually walking IN the Spirit.

When will you believe??

IF we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

To the person who is unwilling to show their teaching in Scripture, I'd say go back to the beginning, and work the sum through again.

I would say there are many various characteristic traits, some are visual, some academic, some artistic, I am a left hander, and find the more I "cut and paste" the scriptures, and not merely philosophizing with words, the more it is committed to memory, since I am a visual kind of man, and very artistic.
I don't read only the bible, but around the scriptures, custom, cultures and manners etc.
Till a week ago I was down in the valley and prayed to the Lord why my soul is so downcast,.....

As a deer pants for flowing streams, so pants my soul for you, O God.
Psa 42:2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When shall I come and appear before God?
Psa 42:3 My tears have been my food day and night, while they say to me all the day long, “Where is your God?” [...and your commentaries?]

that's when I stumbled upon the Baptist minister Bob Utley [American] whom you know nothing about, and find his preaching and teachings slating my hunger and thirst, his notes are in such a way that it gives me a new impetus, zest and zeal to keep on studying and sharing, to get up in the mornings and come to the table...

My English might not be up to American standard, but I can hold my own, in the sphere of the Holy Spirt.
The Lord knows my heart and I don't fear the face of man.

Shalom LaChem
J.

 

[marks]

This question, what does it mean to be born again?

What does it mean to be born again IF you lack the power to live a new life???

I'd say, that if you aren't different . . . if you lack the power to live righteously, to walk in holiness, to know love and joy and peace, to serve others in love, because you actually love, then maybe you aren't actually born again.

Examine yourself, to see if you ARE "In the faith".

IF we live in the Spirit, let is also walk in the Spirit. Is this something we can do by faith? Or no?

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I'd say, that if you aren't different . . . if you lack the power to live righteously, to walk in holiness, to know love and joy and peace, to serve others in love, because you actually love, then maybe you aren't actually born again.

I would cordially disagree with you here, some are mature, other babes, yet IN Christ. Yes, I agree if there is not a radical change in style of live, a mere carnal man bearing the name "Christian" having a form of godliness but denying it's power you may confidently say "you aren't actually born again"
We are all in this race, you may be further ahead in your walk with Jesus and have attained to epignosis/full and perfect knowledge and have reached maturity and have a solid relationship with our Savior, but others are following behind you, and they are not down and out yet.[Pilgrim's Progress]

Ephesians 4:13-15
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

This is a process, years of unlearning the "leaven" deeply ingrained in some of us

Colossians 2:6-7
Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Hebrews 12:2
Verse Concepts
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Fixing my eyes firmly on Jesus, not marks, episkopos and the rest, and in the process throwing off all impediments that would hinder me to continue in this race


Colossians 2:2
Verse Concepts
that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

Romans 15:14
Verse Concepts
And concerning you, my brethren, I myself also am convinced that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able also to admonish one another.

1 Corinthians 2:6
Verse Concepts
Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;

1 Corinthians 14:20
Verse Concepts
Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

Ephesians 1:17-18
that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

Colossians 1:9-10
For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Romans 12:2
Verse Concepts
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Ephesians 4:22-23
that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

Philippians 1:9-11
And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ; having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:3
Verse Concepts
We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater;

Colossians 4:12
Verse Concepts
Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.

Ephesians 4:14
Verse Concepts
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;

2 Peter 3:17-18
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Romans 15:1
Verse Concepts
Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves.

Galatians 6:1-2
Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

Philippians 3:13-15
Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

Luke 8:14
Verse Concepts
The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

2 Corinthians 7:1
Verse Concepts
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

There is still hope for me [with my commentaries]
J.

 

[Episkopos]

This question, what does it mean to be born again?

What does it mean to be born again IF you lack the power to live a new life???

Babies don't have much power beyond crying out in their needs. And this is a good thing. We are to cry out to God for the power to live life in spiritual victory. But most people take a new birth as sufficient in itself to be saved....so they bury their talent and remain in a state of perpetual infancy. Why? A lack of knowledge and bad teachers.

I'd say, that if you aren't different . . . if you lack the power to live righteously, to walk in holiness, to know love and joy and peace, to serve others in love, because you actually love, then maybe you aren't actually born again.

What about walking without any sin whatsoever? In the resurrection power of Christ? How many people that are born again experience that walk? Jesus said very few...and that was before all the distractions we have now. So basically none.

Examine yourself, to see if you ARE "In the faith".

By whose standard?

IF we live in the Spirit, let is also walk in the Spirit.

If we are alive in the Spirit...we can walk in the power of the Spirit.

Is this something we can do by faith? Or no?

By the faith OF Christ. We can only go so far in our own faith and strength.

 

[marks]

I would cordially disagree with you here, some are mature, other babes, yet IN Christ. Yes, I agree if there is not a radical change in style of live, a mere carnal man bearing the name "Christian" having a form of godliness but denying it's power you may confidently say "you aren't actually born again"
We are all in this race, you may be further ahead in your walk with Jesus and have attained to epignosis/full and perfect knowledge and have reached maturity and have a solid relationship with our Savior, but others are following behind you, and they are not down and out yet.[Pilgrim's Progress]

Yes, you are correct of course. We begin with very little sometimes, seemingly nothing! I'm speaking more to the ones here, posting here, that have been in this for years, and saying, maybe, maybe. Examine yourself.

But the reality is that I'm more interested in giving the challenge that they would simply believe His promises, and don't say you cannot. Our walk is by faith, believe.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When will you believe??

IF we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Much love!

I don’t believe it all happens on day one as you do. There’s a lot more that I don’t agree with you on, but with this, our huge difference is that if I see I have not attained to something yet I just admit I haven’t and I begin to hope for the promise. I don’t insist I already have what I clearly see I don’t have. I can’t even fathom what the purpose of doing so would be.

 

[marks]

Babies don't have much power beyond crying out in their needs.

Let's go beyond infancy.

What about walking without any sin whatsoever? In the resurrection power of Christ? How many people that are born again experience that walk? Jesus said very few...and that was before all the distractions we have now. So basically none.

You yourself tell people that they cannot have victory over sin. In faith we can always walk in triumph. Don't you believe that??

By whose standard?

By God's standard naturally.

If we are alive in the Spirit...we can walk in the power of the Spirit.

I'll stay with God's Words,

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Or do you not believe that you are able to walk in the Spirit?

By the faith OF Christ. We can only go so far in our own faith and strength.

Our own faith? Our own strength? I should say!

God has given to each a measure of faith. Of course there is so much that can be said about what God has done, and is doing for us, I'll simply again say, be believing.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I don’t believe it all happens on day one as you do.

"It all happens", that's rather vague statement.

I'm not saying we mature in a moment. I'm not saying we become trained in faith in a moment. But in a moment God slays us and births us and we are new. In a moment God frees us from sin and we are free.

What is it that you don't think happens when we are born again?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You yourself tell people that they cannot have victory over sin.

The man has literally never said that. He teaches the exact opposite.

 

[marks]

I can’t even fathom what the purpose of doing so would be.

It's like a homeless starving man deciding to actually look in his wallet, and finding he is rich.

Christ in you, the hope of glory.

He who has this hope purifies himself.

You believe you don't have God's righteousness, so guess what is going to be going on in your mind? But what if you come to see that He has actually made you righteous, and you don't have to stay where you are, you can move into it?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The man has literally never said that. He teaches the exact opposite.

He tells people that they cannot walk without sin unless God takes them up into it. Did I misunderstand? I'm always happy to be wrong! Especially about something like this.

And another, "In Christ"? Are we "in Christ"?

Much love!