What does it mean to be born again?

[WalterandDebbie]

2-26-23

When a person is born again, I believe the LORD enable them to hear, see and do things first seeking the kingdom/scriptures

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 KJV And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. KJV: King James Version

Love, Walter​

 

[Johann]

The fact that God has drawn o u t the "image", does not change the fact that one who "passes from death to life", does so "in the twinkling of an eye." It's a double entendre.

Life in this world is but a breath and time an illusion, of which there is but one last breath.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


We know (hēmeis oidamen). Emphatic expression of hēmeis (we) in contrast to the unregenerate world, the Christian consciousness shared by writer and readers.
We have passed (metabebēkamen). Perfect active indicative of metabainō, old compound to pass over from one place to another (Joh_7:3), to migrate, out of death into life. We have already done it while here on earth.

Because (hoti). Proof of this transition, not the ground of it.

We love the brethren (agapōmen tous adelphous). Just this phrase (plural) here alone, but see 1Jn_2:9 for the singular.
He that loveth not (ho mē agapōn). “The not loving man,” general picture and picture of spiritual death.
Robertson Word Studies.

So what @ScottA?

 

[ScottA]

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


We know (hēmeis oidamen). Emphatic expression of hēmeis (we) in contrast to the unregenerate world, the Christian consciousness shared by writer and readers.
We have passed (metabebēkamen). Perfect active indicative of metabainō, old compound to pass over from one place to another (Joh_7:3), to migrate, out of death into life. We have already done it while here on earth.

Because (hoti). Proof of this transition, not the ground of it.

We love the brethren (agapōmen tous adelphous). Just this phrase (plural) here alone, but see 1Jn_2:9 for the singular.
He that loveth not (ho mē agapōn). “The not loving man,” general picture and picture of spiritual death.
Robertson Word Studies.

So what @ScottA?

So, you too (and many) draw out the "image" as God has also drawn it out in revelation, just as a story is drawn out in the writing of a book. And it is good--but only to a point.

But I don't need to tell you that it is only an image drawn out that comes to an end, for it is also written that salvation is accomplished in one day ("today") and even to the finer point of "in the twinkling of an eye." Which you also ought to know very well is not at the end of the world or the last beat of a living heart, but rather the last beat of a dead heart...which is the last trump for all.

 

[Episkopos]

The one that is confused here is you, I am talking about Christlikeness, not "growing in holiness, or improving into holiness" since that is not found in Scriptures, however implied.

So here you say one thing....no one improves into holiness. Exactly what I said. Then you say I am the one who is confused by agreeing with me as if I'm the one that's wrong.

2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

*Sounds like progressive, which you are in denial......*

Perfecting holiness (epitelountes hagiosunēn). Not merely negative goodness (cleansing), but aggressive and progressive (present tense of epiteleō) holiness, not a sudden attainment of complete holiness, but a continuous process (1Th_3:13; Rom_1:4; Rom_1:6).

Progressive, of which you are in denial...

Clearly progressive
J.

And then you say quite the opposite here...

Why? Because you are trying to make a dogmatic statement out of something that requires a spiritual understanding. You are not understanding the verses you are pitting each against.

Instead of trying to agree with verses that you are not seeing the balance of....notice that you are contradicting yourself in your attempt to agree with scriptures. Most believers never get past this stage. It takes some humility to see how it works.

God has engineered His words so that you will see (if you are honest) that the truth sounds contradictory to the carnal mind. The lesson is to stop trusting in your own understanding. Very few will do this.

So again...you are saying that holiness is NOT a process...then... it IS progressive. So which is it?

I said that holiness is NOT something we grow into...and you disagreed by agreeing with me. Then you went on to contradict yourself to disagree with me again. How is that not confusion on your part?

A blind man hears something and reaches out with his stick to hit it.... but it keeps moving...or so it seems. Is it the object that is moving...or is it the blind man who is turning in circles?

 

[Johann]

But I don't need to tell you that it is only an image drawn out that comes to an end, for it is also written that salvation is accomplished in one day ("today") and even to the finer point of "in the twinkling of an eye." Which you also ought to know very well is not at the end of the world or the last beat of a living heart, but rather the last beat of a dead heart...which is the last trump for all.

Good point.
What about.......

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Work out (katergazesthe). Perfective use of kata (down) in composition, work on to the finish. This exhortation assumes human free agency in the carrying on the work of one’s salvation.

Some are against the "human free agency" and are in denial re the "progressive"

1. Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Notice 3.13

Or am already made perfect (ē ēdē teteleiōmai). Perfect passive indicative (state of completion) of teleioō, old verb from teleios and that from telos (end). Paul pointedly denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non- development. Certainly he knew nothing of so-called sudden absolute perfection by any single experience. Paul has made great progress in Christlikeness, but the goal is still before him, not behind him.

But I press on (diōkō de). He is not discouraged, but encouraged. He keeps up the chase (real idea in diōkō, as in 1Co_14:1; Rom_9:30; 1Ti_6:11).
If so be that (ei kai). “I follow after.” The condition (third class, ei̇̇katalabō, second aorist active subjunctive of katalambanō) is really a sort of purpose clause or aim. There are plenty of examples in the Koiné[28928]š of the use of ei and the subjunctive as here (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1017), “if I also may lay hold of that for which (Ephesians' hōi, purpose expressed by epi) I was laid hold of (katelēmphthēn, first aorist passive of the same verb katalambanō) by Christ Jesus.” His conversion was the beginning, not the end of the chase.
3.15

Who is "verbing" to press on?

You are showing our positional state in justification and sanctification, and you are correct, however, having said that, are we to remain in a state of passivity?
Would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Positional Sanctification
The idea of positional sanctification is that at salvation we are completely forgiven. We have been sanctified in the sight of God because of the work of Jesus Christ in forgiving our sins. This goes hand-in-hand with justification. When God looks at a person who has accepted Christ as their savior, God sees a person completely justified—perfect—as if they had never sinned.


This does not mean that the Christian will never sin again while on this earth. That speaks to the practical aspect of sanctification. But positionally, this person is completely perfect in the sight of God and is as good as in the presence of God.

Here are some verses that talk about our position in Christ as being perfectly sanctified in the sight of God.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Practical Sanctification
When we speak of practical sanctification we are talking about the idea of how we actually live day to day. This is also known as progressive sanctification. The Bible speaks of spiritual growth, spiritual maturity and babes in Christ contrasted with being Christian soldiers and spiritually mature. The Bible even says that we should progress from desiring milk to eating meat. Each of these ideas is one of growth and maturity that comes with spending time with the Lord in a practical personal relationship with Him.

You agree with the above statement Scott?

Here are some verses speaking about the progressive nature of our Christian lives as it relates to sanctification.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 12:1, 2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Who is the subject?

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Romans on Sanctification
The book of Romans is a beautiful book that illustrates positional and practical sanctification. The first several chapters are about salvation. Romans talks much about justification and positional sanctification in that section. Starting in chapter 12 there is a shift of focus in the book to one of practical sanctification—the way we should live now that we are justified. Of course there is an interweaving of these two concepts throughout the book, but if you will read the book of Romans with the concept of positional and practical sanctification in mind (with a split between the two between chapters 11 and 12) then it may make the book more understandable to you and help you understand the differences between these two concepts of sanctification.

If the whole book of Romans is too much to take in at once, let me encourage you to focus on Romans chapter 6. In this wonderful chapter you will see positional and practical sanctification interwoven beautifully. Paul speaks to how we are justified and positionally sanctified at salvation. Yet, he tells how that practically we must make choices to live as mature, holy people as we yield our lives to the Lord each day. That is practical sanctification.

Top 10 Bible Verses About Sanctification

In this article David Peach shares some great Bible verses about sanctification.

www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com

Not my work, but in full agreement with the content.

Unless, of course, you want us to see the morphologies, Perfect, Active, Present, Middle, Aorist etc.
Point is, it is the progressive side of sanctification, and our responsibilities to the divine Imperatives that are now classified "as works"

A blind man hears something and reaches out with his stick to hit it.... but it keeps moving...or so it seems. Is it the object that is moving...or is it the blind man who is turning in circles?

I already gave you the scriptures @Episkopos and I cordially disagree with your doctrine on sanctification.
Please take note, I am not saying you are a heretic, a legalist or whatever, and I am not here to troll you in your ministry.
Too much of that nonsense going on, maybe, God willing, one day we can see eye to eye.
So don't take it personally, except the fact that whatever doctrine you put out, will be scrutinized by members.
J.

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos and I cordially disagree with your doctrine on sanctification.
Please take note, I am not saying you are a heretic, a legalist or whatever, and I am not here to troll you in your ministry.
Too much of that nonsense going on, maybe, God willing, one day we can see eye to eye.
So don't take it personally, except the fact that whatever doctrine you put out, will be scrutinized by members.
J.

I appreciate your equanimity in your response. In the end it's not the finer details of our doctrines that count but how much love and patience we are able to communicate to one another. I am simply trying to bring clarity where there is so much confusion in regards to the ways of God. It isn't easy or straightforward to parse the writings of Paul. It takes comparing scripture with scripture and an understanding of the purpose of God which is based on life, truth, and the kingdom of God.

Peace

 

[ScottA]

Good point.
What about.......

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Work out (katergazesthe). Perfective use of kata (down) in composition, work on to the finish. This exhortation assumes human free agency in the carrying on the work of one’s salvation.

Some are against the "human free agency" and are in denial re the "progressive"

Thanks--it is good to be thorough.

The defining point in Philippians 2:12 is "fear and trembling." Such is the stance of one approaching the throne of God. Which can also be the case for a time while even in His presence (so to speak), however not literally, for if it were literally, such a one not fully free of sin would surely die. Even so, the biblical example and precedence, is "But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last." Which I submit, is the dividing line between one only approaching salvation and one having fully received it. Which line is that door upon which Jesus knocks--meaning that one who still approaches intending to do all that they can to please God, has not yet opened the door through which Jesus has not yet come in hand or in body, saying, "Do not be afraid", in who's presence is peace and no more fear.

To which I say, "More power to those who mean to please God unto the last--that is, unto Him who is the Last!"

Now on to "attaining."

 

[ScottA]

Some are against the "human free agency" and are in denial re the "progressive"

1. Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Notice 3.13

Or am already made perfect (ē ēdē teteleiōmai). Perfect passive indicative (state of completion) of teleioō, old verb from teleios and that from telos (end). Paul pointedly denies that he has reached a spiritual impasse of non- development. Certainly he knew nothing of so-called sudden absolute perfection by any single experience. Paul has made great progress in Christlikeness, but the goal is still before him, not behind him.

But I press on (diōkō de). He is not discouraged, but encouraged. He keeps up the chase (real idea in diōkō, as in 1Co_14:1; Rom_9:30; 1Ti_6:11).
If so be that (ei kai). “I follow after.” The condition (third class, ei̇̇katalabō, second aorist active subjunctive of katalambanō) is really a sort of purpose clause or aim. There are plenty of examples in the Koiné[28928]š of the use of ei and the subjunctive as here (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1017), “if I also may lay hold of that for which (Ephesians' hōi, purpose expressed by epi) I was laid hold of (katelēmphthēn, first aorist passive of the same verb katalambanō) by Christ Jesus.” His conversion was the beginning, not the end of the chase.
3.15

Who is "verbing" to press on?

You are showing our positional state in justification and sanctification, and you are correct, however, having said that, are we to remain in a state of passivity?
Would like to hear your thoughts on that.

Positional Sanctification
The idea of positional sanctification is that at salvation we are completely forgiven. We have been sanctified in the sight of God because of the work of Jesus Christ in forgiving our sins. This goes hand-in-hand with justification. When God looks at a person who has accepted Christ as their savior, God sees a person completely justified—perfect—as if they had never sinned.


This does not mean that the Christian will never sin again while on this earth. That speaks to the practical aspect of sanctification. But positionally, this person is completely perfect in the sight of God and is as good as in the presence of God.

Here are some verses that talk about our position in Christ as being perfectly sanctified in the sight of God.

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Notice first that Paul is not saying he has not "apprehended" or "attained", but rather that he does not "count" it as such. That is different. Which we can see in Philippians 3:15 where he includes himself, saying "us" referring to the "perfect", which one of God would not say unless God were in him.

Thus, Paul's statement suggesting that he had not yet "apprehended", is instead him putting feet to his mission, saying, "For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you." Thus, he also said, "For me, to live is Christ", which also is not the statement of one who has not attained, but one who has indeed "pressed on" in service.

As for your question regarding "passivity", "we who are alive and remain" remain for a purpose greater than our own. Just as Jesus (and here above Paul) came to live in service, we are not here beyond our being "finished" with our own salvation to travel, or go on vacation only, but to serve. Such is "to live is Christ." Knowing then, that "it is no longer we who live but Christ who lives in us", we walk out our days as He did--yes, even burdened with sin, which we ourselves are not worth to carry. But does that mean that Christ in us has not yet crossed the finish line? No, certainly not--but rather that, to His credit, we "endure" what we alone could not endure. Which is the fulfillment of "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened." Meaning, that when we come to the end of ourselves, He picks us up and carries us until our work is also finished.

 

[Lizbeth]

Wow. Your posts should be complete in themselves. You leave your audience with questions.

Sister.....just dropping in to try to help with your question.....the verse that says those who have this hope purify themselves....I believe is another way of saying we're saved by faith. Because that hope is in us by faith, and it is by faith (in Christ) that we're cleansed/purified/washed of our sins.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sister.....just dropping in to try to help with your question.....the verse that says those who have this hope purify themselves....I believe is another way of saying we're saved by faith. Because that hope is in us by faith, and it is by faith (in Christ) that we're cleansed/purified/washed of our sins.

This is relevant too. Gal 5:5
5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

 

[ScottA]

Practical Sanctification
When we speak of practical sanctification we are talking about the idea of how we actually live day to day. This is also known as progressive sanctification. The Bible speaks of spiritual growth, spiritual maturity and babes in Christ contrasted with being Christian soldiers and spiritually mature. The Bible even says that we should progress from desiring milk to eating meat. Each of these ideas is one of growth and maturity that comes with spending time with the Lord in a practical personal relationship with Him.

You agree with the above statement Scott?

Here are some verses speaking about the progressive nature of our Christian lives as it relates to sanctification.

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Romans 12:1, 2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Who is the subject?

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Romans on Sanctification
The book of Romans is a beautiful book that illustrates positional and practical sanctification. The first several chapters are about salvation. Romans talks much about justification and positional sanctification in that section. Starting in chapter 12 there is a shift of focus in the book to one of practical sanctification—the way we should live now that we are justified. Of course there is an interweaving of these two concepts throughout the book, but if you will read the book of Romans with the concept of positional and practical sanctification in mind (with a split between the two between chapters 11 and 12) then it may make the book more understandable to you and help you understand the differences between these two concepts of sanctification.

If the whole book of Romans is too much to take in at once, let me encourage you to focus on Romans chapter 6. In this wonderful chapter you will see positional and practical sanctification interwoven beautifully. Paul speaks to how we are justified and positionally sanctified at salvation. Yet, he tells how that practically we must make choices to live as mature, holy people as we yield our lives to the Lord each day. That is practical sanctification.

Do I agree?

I understand the premise, and certainly there is a practicality about us being "equipped" for the service of God. But that is not to say, that "Christ in me" has not brought His mind with Him--because He most certainly has. So, no, I do not agree that "Christ in me" needs schooling or maturing. What should be considered all the more practical, is that "Christ reigns" and that "His strength is" [even] "made perfect in weakness"--and to be grateful because He never did need our help or participation. On the contrary, those who think He does, magnify themselves.

As for those passages on the long and drawn out times of positional or practical sanctification so called, these are the word from God for as many generation to carry the gospel to the last. Which does not speak to "a process" regarding salvation, but rather regarding the times of repeating over and over what was new 2,000 years ago, but news to every generation. "Interwoven beautifully" for sure. And what was the message regarding when the promises would come? "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” This too is part of the gospel. But why "you also" and "you" and "you also"--why is that as applicable to those to whom it was first spoken as it has been to every generation since, and even now? I submit to you--if you can receive it, that this--not "positional" or "practical" salvation, but rather that "be ready" applies "also" to every generation--not just to one.

But what shall I say...Thanks for the encouragement? Or should I instead encourage you to "press on" past what was once considered only practical, now that the times are coming to a close?

 

[Johann]

So here you say one thing....no one improves into holiness. Exactly what I said. Then you say I am the one who is confused by agreeing with me as if I'm the one that's wrong.

And then you say quite the opposite here...

Why? Because you are trying to make a dogmatic statement out of something that requires a spiritual understanding. You are not understanding the verses you are pitting each against.

Instead of trying to agree with verses that you are not seeing the balance of....notice that you are contradicting yourself in your attempt to agree with scriptures. Most believers never get past this stage. It takes some humility to see how it works.

God has engineered His words so that you will see (if you are honest) that the truth sounds contradictory to the carnal mind. The lesson is to stop trusting in your own understanding. Very few will do this.

So again...you are saying that holiness is NOT a process...then... it IS progressive. So which is it?

I said that holiness is NOT something we grow into...and you disagreed by agreeing with me. Then you went on to contradict yourself to disagree with me again. How is that not confusion on your part?

A blind man hears something and reaches out with his stick to hit it.... but it keeps moving...or so it seems. Is it the object that is moving...or is it the blind man who is turning in circles?

So, no, I do not agree that "Christ in me" needs schooling or maturing. What should be considered all the more practical, is that "Christ reigns" and that "His strength is" [even] "made perfect in weakness"--and to be grateful because He never did need our help or participation. On the contrary, those who think He does, magnify themselves.

Right @Scott, agree, to disagree, the Christ in you is absolving you from all responsibilities and consequences.


1Pe 2:2 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation—
1Pe 2:3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.
That ye may grow thereby; that by the word, as your spiritual nourishment, ye may grow more in spiritual life and strength, till ye come to be perfect men, Eph_4:13.


The Christ in you is absolving you from all kinds of "testing's,

The Christ in you does not need maturing or schooling.....[Scotts words]


GREEK TERMS FOR TESTING AND THEIR CONNOTATIONS

There are two Greek terms which have the connotation of testing someone for a purpose.

1. Dokimazō, Dokimion, Dokimasia

This term is a metalurgist term for testing the genuineness of something (i.e., metaphorically someone) by fire (see Special Topic: Fire). The fire reveals the true metal and burns off (i.e., purifies) the dross. This physical process became a powerful idiom for God and/or Satan and/or humans testing others. This term is only used in a positive sense of testing with a view towards acceptance

It is used in the NT of testing

a. oxen – Luke 14:19

b. ourselves – 1 Cor. 11:28

c. our faith – James. 1:3

d. even God – Heb. 3:9

The outcomes of these tests were assumed to be positive (cf. Rom. 2:18; 14:22; 16:10; 2 Cor. 10:18; 13:3,7; Phil. 2:27; 1 Pet. 1:7), therefore, the term conveys the idea of someone examined and approved

a. to be worthwhile

b. to be good

c. to be genuine

d. to be valuable

e. to be honored

2. Peirazō, Peirasmus

This term often has the connotation of examination for the purpose of fault finding or rejection. It is used in connection to Jesus' temptation in the wilderness.

a. It conveys the attempt to trap Jesus (cf. Matt. 4:1; 16:1; 19:3; 22:18, 35; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:2; Heb. 2:18).

b. This term (peirazōn) is used as a title for Satan in Matt. 4:3; 1 Thess. 3:5 (i.e., "the tempter").

c. Usage

(1) It was used by Jesus warning humans not to test God (cf. Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12, [or Christ cf. 1 Cor 10:9]).

(2) It also denotes the attempt to do something that has failed (cf. Heb.11:29).

(3) It is used in connection with the temptation and trials of believers (cf. 1 Cor. 7:5; 10:9, 13; Gal. 6:1; 1 Thess. 3:5; Heb. 2:18; James. 1:2, 13, 14; 1 Pet. 4:12; 2 Pet 2:9).

Maybe there was a misunderstanding, on my part.

 

[Johann]

But what shall I say...Thanks for the encouragement? Or should I instead encourage you to "press on" past what was once considered only practical, now that the times are coming to a close?

Christian fortitude
is concerned about things which are apparently the will of God, and is exercised in obedience
to it; for the sake of a man’s doing his duty, and with a pure view to the honour and glory
of God; trusting in and depending upon his power, strength, and grace, to carry him through
whatever he is called to do or suffer in the performance of it; and from which he is not to

Chapter 18. Of Christian Fortitude
be deterred by any difficulties that occur, or dangers he may be exposed unto therein: this
is fortitude becoming Christians.
Now of such fortitude there is a necessity in the Christian life. When we consider the
many duties of religion to be performed by us, and that with constancy and perseverance,
both public and private, relative, social, and personal, in which we are to be steadfast and
immovable; and when our own weakness is considered, that without Christ we can do
nothing, but all things, through Christ strengthening us, it requires great boldness of faith,
and confidence in Christ for grace and strength: and since the Christian has so many difficulties and dangers to encounter with; so many discouragements in the way; so many trials,
temptations, tribulations, and afflictions, from various quarters, he must be a man of fortitude
not to be moved with these things; bearing all with an invincible courage and constancy.
To which may be added, the numerous enemies he has to grapple with; enemies mightier
than he, who are lively and strong; some not flesh and blood, as he is, but above his match;
even principalities and powers, and spiritual wickednesses in high places. Good men dwell
in a sinful world, called, “This present evil world;” and to live soberly, righteously, and godly
in it; to bear the vexation arising from the filthy conversation of the wicked, as was the case
of Lot; and to bear a testimony against them, and to suffer their mockings, insults, and injuries, who are for war when they are for peace, requires great fortitude of mind; their souls
are sometimes among lions, men comparable to them, as David’s soul was; and they had
need to be as “bold as lions,” as the righteous man is. Now this being the case, and these the
circumstances of the Christian, he has need of great fortitude of mind and of strength, and
grace from above to support under them; he has need to be “strong in the Lord, and in the
grace that is in Christ” Jesus; to be fortified with the love of God, with the promises of the
gospel, and with fresh supplies of grace and strength from Christ.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is relevant too. Gal 5:5
5 For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Yes, though I don't know how you interpret that verse - I see it as saying we're waiting for the adoption, when corruption is swallowed up of incorruption - the redemption of our sinful flesh.

 

[Johann]

Yes, though I don't know how you interpret that verse - I see it as saying we're waiting for the adoption, when corruption is swallowed up of incorruption - the redemption of our sinful flesh.

"For we through the Spirit, by faith" This phrase shows the two necessary qualifications (i.e., covenant) involved in our salvation:

the drawing of the Holy Spirit (cf. John 6:44, 65; 16:7-13)

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”


Joh 16:7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
Joh 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
Joh 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;
Joh 16:10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;
Joh 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
Joh 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.


human response (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21)
Mar 1:15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Act 3:16 And his name—by faith in his name—has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all.

Act 20:21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

These phrases are placed first in the Greek sentence for emphasis.

"are waiting for the hope of righteousness" "Hope" is often used in the NT for the Second Coming. The NT describes our salvation as

a completed act
a state of being
a process
as a future consummation

These four attributes of salvation are complimentary not mutually exclusive. We are saved, have been saved, are being saved, and shall be saved. The future aspect of salvation entails the believers' glorification at the Second Coming

(cf. 1 John 3:2).
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

Other passages describing the future event of salvation include Rom. 8:23; Phil. 3:21 and Col. 3:3, 4.

Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

 

[Lizbeth]

My brain can't handle very much these days brother - I have to keep things as simple as possible. To my understanding being born again is as described in the scriptures below.......and no wonder the bible says GREAT is the mystery of Godliness.....we are reborn as a new creation created after the image of He who created us, hence our inner man is renewed and recreated, and quickened to new life, every bit as righteous as Christ is, the free gift of righteousness by faith:

Eph 4:19-27

Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
But ye have not so learned Christ;
If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Neither give place to the devil.

2Co 5:17

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


Col 3:1-10

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him



And this is why Paul could say this:

Rom 7:20-25

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
..O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


Col 3:12-14

Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.


Gal 3:26-27

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Rom 13:13-14

Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


Gal 2:19-21

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

But of course it doesn't just end there......that is the beginning, our strong foundation which we now must "build" upon, or grow up in. I think of it in terms that we now have the task of MANIFESTING what has been done in us.....manifesting the new creation, the new man, who really is Christ in us by HIS spirit/nature. We all have been given our measure of grace to begin with, some greater, some less. But we are to grow and increase in whatever we have received, and begin apprehending more of what has been done in us, by realizing and accomplishing the death of our old man in real time so to speak.....why the Lord helps us by chastising us in the flesh so that we may partake of His holiness. That is what I believe overcoming is all about.....putting our old nature under the feet of Christ. It has already been put under His feet, but we do not necessarily all yet SEE it entirely put under. We still have a fight to fight...the good fight of faith, because the devil is still here trying to devour us through our old man nature and flesh - as Paul wrote, the 'law' in our members (flesh) warring against the law of the spirit.

 

[Johann]

But of course it doesn't just end there......that is the beginning, our strong foundation which we now must "build" upon, or grow up in. I think of it in terms that we now have the task of MANIFESTING what has been done in us.....manifesting the new creation, the new man, who really is Christ in us by HIS spirit/nature. We all have been given our measure of grace to begin with, some greater, some less. But we are to grow and increase in whatever we have received, and begin apprehending more of what has been done in us, by realizing and accomplishing the death of our old man in real time so to speak.....why the Lord helps us by chastising us in the flesh so that we may partake of His holiness. That is what I believe overcoming is all about.....putting our old nature under the feet of Christ. It has already been put under His feet, but we do not necessarily all yet SEE it entirely put under. We still have a fight to fight...the good fight of faith, because the devil is still here trying to devour us through our old man nature and flesh - as Paul wrote, the 'law' in our members (flesh) warring against the law of the spirit.

A powerful statement
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Christian fortitude
is concerned about things which are apparently the will of God, and is exercised in obedience
to it; for the sake of a man’s doing his duty, and with a pure view to the honour and glory
of God; trusting in and depending upon his power, strength, and grace, to carry him through
whatever he is called to do or suffer in the performance of it; and from which he is not to

Chapter 18. Of Christian Fortitude
be deterred by any difficulties that occur, or dangers he may be exposed unto therein: this
is fortitude becoming Christians.
Now of such fortitude there is a necessity in the Christian life. When we consider the
many duties of religion to be performed by us, and that with constancy and perseverance,
both public and private, relative, social, and personal, in which we are to be steadfast and
immovable; and when our own weakness is considered, that without Christ we can do
nothing, but all things, through Christ strengthening us, it requires great boldness of faith,
and confidence in Christ for grace and strength: and since the Christian has so many difficulties and dangers to encounter with; so many discouragements in the way; so many trials,
temptations, tribulations, and afflictions, from various quarters, he must be a man of fortitude
not to be moved with these things; bearing all with an invincible courage and constancy.
To which may be added, the numerous enemies he has to grapple with; enemies mightier
than he, who are lively and strong; some not flesh and blood, as he is, but above his match;
even principalities and powers, and spiritual wickednesses in high places. Good men dwell
in a sinful world, called, “This present evil world;” and to live soberly, righteously, and godly
in it; to bear the vexation arising from the filthy conversation of the wicked, as was the case
of Lot; and to bear a testimony against them, and to suffer their mockings, insults, and injuries, who are for war when they are for peace, requires great fortitude of mind; their souls
are sometimes among lions, men comparable to them, as David’s soul was; and they had
need to be as “bold as lions,” as the righteous man is. Now this being the case, and these the
circumstances of the Christian, he has need of great fortitude of mind and of strength, and
grace from above to support under them; he has need to be “strong in the Lord, and in the
grace that is in Christ” Jesus; to be fortified with the love of God, with the promises of the
gospel, and with fresh supplies of grace and strength from Christ.

Oh my gosh…what is this I just read? Is it a book? It’s very, very good.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But of course it doesn't just end there......that is the beginning, our strong foundation which we now must "build" upon, or grow up in. I think of it in terms that we now have the task of MANIFESTING what has been done in us.....manifesting the new creation, the new man, who really is Christ in us by HIS spirit/nature. We all have been given our measure of grace to begin with, some greater, some less. But we are to grow and increase in whatever we have received, and begin apprehending more of what has been done in us, by realizing and accomplishing the death of our old man in real time so to speak.....why the Lord helps us by chastising us in the flesh so that we may partake of His holiness. That is what I believe overcoming is all about.....putting our old nature under the feet of Christ. It has already been put under His feet, but we do not necessarily all yet SEE it entirely put under. We still have a fight to fight...the good fight of faith, because the devil is still here trying to devour us through our old man nature and flesh - as Paul wrote, the 'law' in our members (flesh) warring against the law of the spirit.

I like and mostly agree with this. I still think you have some confusion about where you are and that you claim already for yourself some verses that aren’t yet your experience but are rather promises to hope for. We hope for what we don’t yet have, not what we do have.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh my gosh…what is this I just read? Is it a book? It’s very, very good.

Ah, I found it! A man named John Gill. I’m off to look for a book.