What does it mean to be born again?

[Episkopos]

I believe Uzzah was a living parable speaking to the church about the end result of handling the things of God/Spirit with hands/mind of flesh. It leads to death. Like the way that seemeth right to man, his carnal mind, fleshly emotions and self righteousness, leads to death. (Speaking of spiritual death.)

Exactly. So why can't you see what you are doing? Why the blindness?

To the church, in one way Moses was a picture of the Law.....it fell short. How the Law couldn't bring the people into the promised land. Entering the land of promise had to wait for Joshua/Jesus to lead them in.

Amen.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I believe Uzzah was a living parable speaking to the church about the end result of handling the things of God/Spirit with hands/mind of flesh. It leads to death. Like the way that seemeth right to man, his carnal mind, fleshly emotions and self righteousness, leads to death. (Speaking of spiritual death.)

I agree! But…I’m confused as to how you are able to see this, based on much else you have said…or…I guess I do understand, as I was confused over and over again as I grasped, then didn’t grasp, then grasped again.

Self righteousness not yet uncovered is maybe A part…

 

[Lizbeth]

This is your speculation. The churches were mixed with new and older believers. Some were carnal and some were spiritual. Do you know the bible well enough or do I have to post verses?


The things of Christ. Righteousness always was. The New Covenant is about the higher walk...that's what's new. So then God is calling the righteous (men like Cornelius) UP into the higher walk....into holiness. It isn't wrong to teach holiness. Back then, there was more faith.


He wasn't walking in the Spirit at the time of His writing. But he also said that some were...To those of us who are perfect...Again do you know the bible well enough????....


The carnal mind cannot help. Try compartmentalizing the birth of a baby...lots happening. A lot of moving parts. Nothing that men would consider. Too many moving parts. The same goes for godliness. You are trying to compartmentalize with your own mental abilities...futile to say the least...


But the carnal mind does. That is what you are doing.


You are a broken...carnal...record here...turning the same vain ideas in your mind...over and over. Your foundation is YOU and Christ mixed together. Maybe you need to compartmentalize the difference between you and your ways, and God and His ways.

Again, you are not seeking the face of God...instead saying..it's ok...I've got everything I need...I will not be seeking You!

Your flesh is showing brother. I perceive there is much sensitivity here to being critiqued. It probably stems from childhood experience as it usually does. When stunned by grace said "let's see who throws the first punch" I was thinking our definitions of punch probably aren't the same. Not to mention a punch is only perceived to be a punch if it is thrown by those she/you don't agree with.

No that is not what I say or think at all....it certainly doesn't reflect my attitude. That is your assumption. See you even compartmentalize people. Compartmentalizing things of the SPIRIT leads to error, it just IS error. Which thankfully can simply be corrected if one is humble enough.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Your flesh is showing brother. I perceive there is much sensitivity here to being critiqued.

I think you perceive wrong. It seems to you that when he is truthful it is attacking or said out of fleshly arrogance or pride.
My family members who havent Yet come to God are the same way, so it’s a human thing for sure. They see any speaking truthfully as an attack on their person. It looks like very bad form to them to be told the truth. It’s not following the script or playing the part they’ve written for you. I’m trying to think of an example…for instance, two of them will be talking about and tearing down someone and if I pass by they try to bring me into the conversation. So I say something like…I don’t want to have this conversation behind their back because it’s not right and needs to be said in their presence. Say to their face what you think they are doing wrong.
And that causes them to say I am mean and nasty and attacking them, even though I was speaking calmly and not angrily and was telling the truth.

 

[Episkopos]

Your flesh is showing brother. I perceive there is much sensitivity here to being critiqued. It probably stems from childhood experience as it usually does. When stunned by grace said "let's see who throws the first punch" I was thinking our definitions of punch probably aren't the same. Not to mention a punch is only perceived to be a punch if it is thrown by those she/you don't agree with.

No that is not what I say or think at all....it certainly doesn't reflect my attitude. That is your assumption. See you even compartmentalize people. Compartmentalizing things of the SPIRIT leads to error, it just IS error. Which thankfully can simply be corrected if one is humble enough.

Way to deflect...I think you are becoming more of a crow. You weren't so sure if you would side with people like Behold...but you are moving that way. In Jeremiah, there is given to him from God a ministry that has twice as much tearing down as building up. Tearing down gets to the root of the flesh. You absolutely refuse to be torn down...either in your own devotional life...or when confronted by ministers of Christ who are looking to help you.

There is a lot of tearing down that needs to happen first...when people have relied on religious indoctrination and the carnal religious covering that results from believing a lie.

Even bad examples can be useful if it gets others to see how the flesh works...and what God is trying to do.

 

[Johann]

says who? Neither describe moral excellence. Righteousness is based on the wisdom of humility, honesty and godly fear. The righteous sin. The holy are pure as God is pure. Sinless...by the power of grace.

Incorrect.

Maybe a re-reread in the Pauline epistle would help.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.


2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2Co 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

1.The righteous don't live in a STATE of habitual sins/sinning, like unbelievers.
2. We are nor AS hagios as YHVH is kadosh, as 1 John 3.2 shows you, we are the tzedakah of YHVH in Yeshua, we are reckoned as such.

When He appears, we shall be LIKE HIM.....

Again very wrong. There is a huge difference between being humble about one's fallen condition and walking in resurrection life. And these are not concepts but POWER. The righteous walk by human strength..and the saint walks by resurrection power.

Incorrect
you put a distinction between the righteous walking by human strength...and the saints by resurrection power, and no scriptural verses.

The present grace can either help someone to be righteous...become honest by seeing how sinful we are....OR/AND...allow the righteous to be translated into the higher walk in Zion where the walk is in the power of the risen Christ.

Incorrect

Now the "righteous" walking by their own power [sin conscious] are being translated as "saints into a "higher walk"--a contradiction in terms--no scripture quotations, no book, chapter and verse

Walking with God is now possible ...and being PLEASING to God....because we are able to enter INTO Christ...to walk as He walked. That is the privilege of the saint.

On this I would agree, but you "cut out" the progressive part of our sanctification, as shown already.

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree! But…I’m confused as to how you are able to see this, based on much else you have said…or…I guess I do understand, as I was confused over and over again as I grasped, then didn’t grasp, then grasped again.

Self righteousness not yet uncovered is maybe A part…

I'm afraid you'll perceive my answer to be criticism sister, even though it is not meant unkindly, but I'll say this anyhow. I think you probably assume that anyone who has an area of disagreement with you/Epi over certain things must not be 'advanced enough' or have any spiritual insight at all. (which makes you automatically write off what they are saying about those things.)

 

[Lizbeth]

Way to deflect...I think you are becoming more of a crow. You weren't so sure if you would side with people like Behold...but you are moving that way. In Jeremiah, there is given to Him from God a ministry that has twice as much tearing down as building up. Tearing down gets to the root of the flesh. You absolutely refuse to be torn down...either in your own devotional life...or when confronted by ministers of Christ who are looking to help you.

There is a lot of tearing down that needs to happen first...when people have relied on religious indoctrination and the carnal religious covering that results from believing a lie.

Even bad examples can be useful if it gets others to see how the flesh works...and what God is trying to do.

And you are having to resort to accusations again.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm afraid you'll perceive my answer to be criticism sister, even though it is not meant unkindly, but I'll say this anyhow. I think you probably assume that anyone who has an area of disagreement with you/Epi over certain things must not be 'advanced enough' or have any spiritual insight at all. (which makes you automatically write off what they are saying about those things.)

That’s odd…I think you are not “advanced enough” and have zero spiritual insight yet you are the one who has more than once questioned if I even have received the Holy Spirit…so you are the one who has done what you say I do…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And you are having to resort to accusations again.

Once again, speaking truthfully is not accusations. I guess you would be fine if everything you said or mused about was accepted as true?

 

[Episkopos]

And you are having to resort to accusations again.

You are the one who said that the crows were doing so because of zeal for the truth. Do you remember your own words?

I have dealt with many people...who remain cool, calm and collected, but firmly rooted in the flesh...now become religious.

I will leave you to yourself and God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not to mention a punch is only perceived to be a punch if it is thrown by those she/you don't agree with.

That’s not true.
And you perceive anything that you feel does not cast a beautiful light on you as being a punch.

 

[Laurina]

Soren Kierkegaard: "The self-assured believer is a greater sinner in the eyes of God than the troubled disbeliever."

 

[Laurina]

Soren Kierkegaard: "If you think you understand it, it isn't God."

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That’s odd…I think you are not “advanced enough” and have zero spiritual insight yet you are the one who has more than once questioned if I even have received the Holy Spirit…so you are the one who has done what you say I do…

I will say this though. I do not remember the gist of your “why can’t it be both” campaign which instinct is telling me you might be referring to when you say I write off or dismiss what you say and don’t even consider it? I think at some point yesterday or the day before I finally got some vague sense of what was in your mind concerning the “why can’t it be both” thing but it still made no sense to me.and now, I’ve lost even that vague sense and don’t even remember what it was about at all.
When I seem to not pay attention to something someone has said, more often than not it’s because there was no thread in it that I could grab and just a big blank in my mind about what the person was even saying or meaning.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Soren Kierkegaard: "The self-assured believer is a greater sinner in the eyes of God than the troubled disbeliever."

Laurina actually spoke and I was surprised…! and what a great quote. I had never heard it.

 

[Laurina]

Soren Kierkegaard: "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."

 

[Episkopos]

I will say this though. I do not remember the gist of your “why can’t it be both” campaign which instinct is telling me you might be referring to when you say I write off or dismiss what you say and don’t even consider it? I think at some point yesterday or the day before I finally got some vague sense of what was in your mind concerning the “why can’t it be both” thing but it still made no sense to me.and now, I’ve lost even that vague sense and don’t even remember what it was about at all.
When I seem to not pay attention to something someone has said, more often than not it’s because there was no thread in it that I could grab and just a big blank in my mind about what the person was even saying or meaning.

The "why can't it be both' is like a Cinderella syndrome...thinking I (ego) is the central part of the story (foundational). The story is about what God did for ME. Such a person can't abide the idea that the story is about becoming selfless. Such a person is afraid to lose themselves. It's about MY salvation. In that scheme, God is seen as a supporting character.

It's like a person seeing themselves as a princess in their youth. Sure the prince rescues the princess. But the egoist identifies with the princess....the one who is rescued.

However, that's not how love works. (unless self-love is the goal). Love focuses on the other...trusting that one's own issues are covered by the other. We are to build on Christ Himself. Not on some mix of Christ in us.

Those who seek to save their lives will lose them. And those who give up their lives for His sake, will find them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Soren Kierkegaard: "If you think you understand it, it isn't God."

The first quote had to do with the lukewarm verse.
This one has to do with the verse that says if you want to be wise you must first become a fool.

And this last verse is what Epi was earlier saying about needing to be torn down.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Soren Kierkegaard: "There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."

Okay well now I have to find something I may read from that fellow. I’ve heard the name but have never read him.