What does the Bible say about Grace and Good Works?

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Robert Gwin

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if you can lose it. you MUST earn it.

there is really no difference in saying you must work in order to recieve. or saying you recieve in faith. but must work to keep it. In both cases. you are trying to earn your salvation by what you do or do not do. which is works

funny how you guys always resort to James. as if James contradicts paul.. Which is not true.

the People james spoke to were hearers only, not doers. they CLAIMED to have faith. but the fact thay had zero works proved their faith was dead.

They had no faith.. Thus why they were never justified.

we are justified by faith. Because there is no amout of work we can do to earn our right standing with God.

Maybe one day you will understand what that requirement is, and confess. you have not made it and confess, because of this, you never will.
Generally I go to the Bible part that speaks about the subject, and I consider Jehovah's words through James to be just as relevant as His words through Paul. You are very correct His penmen are not going to contradict each other, that is why you have to take the Bible as a whole. I have shown you from the Bible examples of those who have lost it, how God had James record it because of people who were claiming what you are, and what Jesus said about it. That is all I can do E. You are free to show me where I was in error in my understanding, or we will just have to come to the realization that we have came to the point of disagreement.
 

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The Law can't save anyone., as the Law can't provide you with Righteousness.
All the Law can do is expose that you are a sinner, unrighteous, needing to confess your SINNING.

God sent Christ into this world.... to the Cross, to FREELY provide this world with the Righteousness that God requires so that He can accept us.

All who believe this Truth, who turn to Christ for forgiveness of their sin, will be given by God "The righteousness of God, in Christ"., as their "faith is counted as Righteousness" and they will be "justified by Faith".
Upon this justification God will give to every BELIEVER in YESHUA, the "New Birth", as Jesus told you that "you must be born again", and that not by the LAW, but "by my SPIRIT saith the LORD".

This is the "GIFT of Salvation".
This is John 3:16
This is 2 Corinthians 5:19
Thank you for agreeing with me. As I wrote earlier, no one can be saved apart from the LAW.

Redemption begins with conviction of SIN. Indeed you wrote about the LAW; "expose that you are a sinner, unrighteous, needing to confess your SINNING."

Is this not the beginning of justification? Is this awareness of personal SIN the beginning of the journey to salvation? Indeed it is.

Therefore my statement is true; no one can be saved apart from the LAW.

Does the LAW itself impart justification? It does not, for the LAW points us toward the appropriate sacrifice for SIN which is acceptable by God but which must be accepted and applied BY FAITH in us. In other words, the cross is for us but the blood is for God.

The LAW doesn't save. It tells us how.

Once one is blessed of the Second Birth, by GRACE, how then are we to live? Are we to do as we please, putting our hands upon every foul thing our heart desires? Are we to lie, cheat, steal, murder and blaspheme the Holy Name of God? We can not, for we are called to live lives pleasing unto God. How do we know what sort of life pleases God? We know by looking into the LAW.

Again, we aren't justified by any work of the LAW but we are justified in living by faith in that which it directs us - to apply the required sacrifice of the blood. In these final days this means the blood of Y'shuah. Thus we are saved by GRACE through faith in that which the LAW provides - the blood of the lamb of God.

The problem here is that the protestant church has denied Mosaic LAW and anything that springs from it. Thus we are plagued by doctrines of demons and lawLESSness within the church itself.

Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “’Come out of her, my people,’ so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; (Revelation 18:4)

What are the plagues spoken of in Revelation? They are plagues of doctrines of demons forced upon gullible congregations by lawLESS leadership. Even the secular world knows the lawLESSness of religious leaders these days. For some reason our congregations choose to ignore it - to their own disservice. For every good and decent and righteous doctrine is based upon the LAW of Moses.

We cannot be saved by the LAW, but it does provide a guide - first to the blood of ha-Mashiach that saves us and then to a life of living sacrifice toward God, which is pleasing to Him.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
 
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Choir Loft
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Paul says if you seek to be justified by the Law you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). Christians are to serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). We cannot be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts 13:39). Gentile Christians were told that they did not have to keep the Law of Moses (See: Acts 15:5, Acts 15:24-29). Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So Christians are not under the 613 Laws of Moses (even though certain moral laws have been repeated or carried over into the New Covenant - like: Do not steal, do not covet, do not murder, etcetera - which is fulfilled if we obey in the New Covenant way of loving our neighbor - Romans 13:8-10). We are to love the brethren, and love our enemies. We are to obey God in our loving actions in helping the poor, preaching the gospel, providing for our own, etcetera. This is done from a pure heart of love (1 Corinthians 13).

The problem with logic expressed here is that the Blood of Christ is usurped by humanistic love. It is replaced in the post-modern neo-gnostic church by human love & kindness with absolutely no acknowledgment of the righteousness of a Holy God. The church today has betrayed the gospel of Christ which directs us to God's love and God's provision for sanctification - not those of our own making or choosing.

The LAW recognizes the Holy anger of God in that it teaches us we are SINNERS. One cannot begin a personal journey with Christ until and unless one first knows he or she is a SINNER. That's why I wrote that; apart from the LAW no one can be saved.

The LAW identifies our SIN. It then tells us how to be washed clean of it - by a substitute death. The LAW tells only the blood of the sacrifice is accepted by God in payment of our debt of SIN. No false sentiment of affection is acceptable, by the LAW. The church today falsely teaches love and kindness for one another will save us. Our false gospel denies the essential blood of Y'shuah, required by the LAW. Again I insist that apart from the LAW no one can be saved.

Does not God's Holy Word say that human love and kindness are fake? "No one is righteous, not even one." (Romans 3:10)

Again the prophet Isaiah writes, "all our righteousness is like filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6a)

Therefore kindness and love are disqualified as methods leading to justification and salvation. They are Works of man , not the GRACE of God.

Those of the Second Birth are called to be a 'living sacrifice' (1 Peter 2:5) so as to be pleasing to God. What measure are we then to employ in examining ourselves in this new life? How are we to live? We are to live by the LAW.

The post-modern church has declared the LAW destroyed, but Jesus said it wasn't.

"I did not come to destroy the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Matt 5:17)

If the LAW hasn't been abolished, then it still stands.

This is the mystery of righteousness the post-modern church has deliberately denied. In its place is substituted all manner of debauchery and filthy living and self-justification in the name of love and kindness. (1 Corinthians 6:9) Love and kindness will not save anybody for they are themselves a feeble attempt to live a humanistic law which even God has not certified.

It is time to repent of our SIN and wickedness, by the LAW. It is time to apply the blood of the Lamb of God upon our lives by the LAW. It is time to honor God in a self-sacrifice unto Him, by the LAW.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS
Jewish tradition celebrates Shauvot as the time God gave the LAW to Moses. This is observed 50 days after Pesach/Passover.
Christian tradition celebrates Pentecost as the time God gave GRACE to the gentiles. This is observed 50 days after Passover/Easter.

Is it a coincidence that BOTH events happen on the same calendar day, or is God saying something very important about LAW & GRACE? Isn't God telling us they work together unto salvation? Indeed it does.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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The problem with logic expressed here is that the Blood of Christ is usurped by humanistic love. It is replaced in the post-modern neo-gnostic church by human love & kindness with absolutely no acknowledgment of the righteousness of a Holy God. The church today has betrayed the gospel of Christ which directs us to God's love and God's provision for sanctification - not those of our own making or choosing.

The LAW recognizes the Holy anger of God in that it teaches us we are SINNERS. One cannot begin a personal journey with Christ until and unless one first knows he or she is a SINNER. That's why I wrote that; apart from the LAW no one can be saved.

The LAW identifies our SIN. It then tells us how to be washed clean of it - by a substitute death. The LAW tells only the blood of the sacrifice is accepted by God in payment of our debt of SIN. No false sentiment of affection is acceptable, by the LAW. The church today falsely teaches love and kindness for one another will save us. Our false gospel denies the essential blood of Y'shuah, required by the LAW. Again I insist that apart from the LAW no one can be saved.

Does not God's Holy Word say that human love and kindness are fake? "No one is righteous, not even one." (Romans 3:10)

Again the prophet Isaiah writes, "all our righteousness is like filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6a)

Therefore kindness and love are disqualified as methods leading to justification and salvation. They are Works of man , not the GRACE of God.

Those of the Second Birth are called to be a 'living sacrifice' (1 Peter 2:5) so as to be pleasing to God. What measure are we then to employ in examining ourselves in this new life? How are we to live? We are to live by the LAW.

The post-modern church has declared the LAW destroyed, but Jesus said it wasn't.

"I did not come to destroy the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Matt 5:17)

If the LAW hasn't been abolished, then it still stands.

This is the mystery of righteousness the post-modern church has deliberately denied. In its place is substituted all manner of debauchery and filthy living and self-justification in the name of love and kindness. (1 Corinthians 6:9) Love and kindness will not save anybody for they are themselves a feeble attempt to live a humanistic law which even God has not certified.

It is time to repent of our SIN and wickedness, by the LAW. It is time to apply the blood of the Lamb of God upon our lives by the LAW. It is time to honor God in a self-sacrifice unto Him, by the LAW.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS
Jewish tradition celebrates Shauvot as the time God gave the LAW to Moses. This is observed 50 days after Pesach/Passover.
Christian tradition celebrates Pentecost as the time God gave GRACE to the gentiles. This is observed 50 days after Passover/Easter.

Is it a coincidence that BOTH events happen on the same calendar day, or is God saying something very important about LAW & GRACE? Isn't God telling us they work together unto salvation? Indeed it does.
Colossians 2:16 (NLT)
”So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.”

Romans 7:6
“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter”

Galatians 5:4
”Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

Galatians 3:12
“And the law is not of faith…”

Romans 13:8-10
8 “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”

Hebrews 4:2
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”
 

ElieG12

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The difference between the law of Moses and the law of the Christ is made clear in his own words in Matt. 5:17-48 in a series of "YOU heard that it was said ..." and "However, I say to YOU ..." (vv. 22, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44).

Anyone who meditates on that speech of Jesus realizes that Jesus was not eliminating rules of conduct, but was establishing the actual principles that were implied in the law. He did not abandon them at all, but made it clear to them that to really please God we must have very high principles and show it with the things we do, say and even think

... and that is MORE THAN WORKS. Be real.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
The Laws of Christ have superseded the Laws of Moses.
The Laws of Christ are superior and they are fulfillment of the Old Law.
Basic principles (or Moral Laws) in the Laws of Moses (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) have remained the same but there are many things out of the 613 Laws of Moses we are not under. We do not have to offer animal sacrifices, partake of the Saturday Sabbath, dietary laws, holy days, circumcision, etcetera. As Paul said, we are not under the Law (Romans 6:14). This would be the Laws of Moses and not the Laws of Christ.

People are deceived if they think that we must keep the Saturday Sabbath, and or other ceremonial Old Covenant laws as a part of entering the Kingdom, etcetera. Read Romans 7:6 again.

If somebody is under the Old Law, then they are a slave to their sin (Romans 7:14-24).
 

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Colossians 2:16 (NLT)
”So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.”

Romans 7:6
“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter”

Galatians 5:4
”Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

Galatians 3:12
“And the law is not of faith…”

Romans 13:8-10
8 “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”

Hebrews 4:2
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

As I read the basic idea you present here, there is no such thing as the LAW of Moses being applicable unto salvation. As I read the argument, one isn't bound by the LAW at all.

As an extrapolation I believe you are saying one who is saved can murder his neighbor, rape his neighbor's wife, kill his children, steal all his worldly goods, burn his house to the ground and continue to be innocent because of God's love. Is that correct?

If there is no LAW, then there can be no real salvation for the LAW tells us it's necessary. Therefore if there is no LAW then all things are permissible. I can have sex with my mother and sister, I can steal money from the offering plate/basket and I can lie cheat and steal my way through life and still be justified in my final journey to the pearly gates. Is that correct?

If there is no LAW, then there isn't really any salvation. If one isn't bound by the LAW then it's permissible to behave in lawLESS fashion and it isn't necessary to display any of the characteristics of Biblical morality. We are, all of us, lost in our SIN and wickedness.....if there is no LAW.

If there is no binding LAW, then every single person who slithers into a church and who pretends to be righteous is a hypocrite and a liar.(*)

"Let us therefore go out and SIN to our heart's content that GRACE may abound." (the final words of a Baptist preacher's message on Grace)

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Lying hypocrisy is what the secular world sees happening in the church today. It sees no standard, no excellence of any sort, no real backbone for standing upon any standard of behavior at all. As a result, church attendance has fallen to unprecedented levels. PEW & Gallup polls have revealed that church attendance has fallen to 17% of 1948 levels. Apparently the secular world has a better sense of right and wrong than the church does. Sensing religious hypocrisy within the church, many are not now being saved who could be....

"I did not come to abolish the LAW. I came to fulfill it." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17)

If the LAW is not abolished it still stands.
 
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Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.
The Laws of Christ have superseded the Laws of Moses.
The Laws of Christ are superior and they are fulfillment of the Old Law.
Basic principles (or Moral Laws) in the Laws of Moses (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) have remained the same but there are many things out of the 613 Laws of Moses we are not under. We do not have to offer animal sacrifices, partake of the Saturday Sabbath, dietary laws, holy days, circumcision, etcetera. As Paul said, we are not under the Law (Romans 6:14). This would be the Laws of Moses and not the Laws of Christ.

People are deceived if they think that we must keep the Saturday Sabbath, and or other ceremonial Old Covenant laws as a part of entering the Kingdom, etcetera. Read Romans 7:6 again.

If somebody is under the Old Law, then they are a slave to their sin (Romans 7:14-24).

The typical Biblically illiterate church type has no idea what they're talking about when they refer to religious law.

There are TWO.

One is the LAW of Grace, also called the Law of Christ and also called Torah/Pentateuch. This LAW was given by GOD TO MOSES upon the Holy Mountain. This LAW has not been abolished in any way, shape or form. (Matthew 5:17)

The second law is the law of works, also called Talmud. Talmud was composed by the Jewish rabbinate during their captivity in Babylon. It has been amended and refined since that time.

These are the two laws generally discussed in the pages of the gospels and epistles.

* * *

Christ and His apostles lived and preached and died in observance of Torah, the LAW of Grace (given by God). In all the gospels and epistles of the New Covenant they preached against Talmud (created by the hand of man alone). It is by Grace through Torah that one is saved, not by Talmud.

If members of the post-modern church had read and studied the Tanakh (Old Covenant) instead of absorbing themselves in secular philosophy and motivational ideologies, they'd know this basic difference. Alas it isn't taught at all as our leaders are more concerned about indoctrination and manipulation than in edification and justification.

Case in point here is the continuously jack-hammered message we hear about tithing. We are told we owe 10% of our money to the church. The problem with this indoctrination is that it's a perversion of the LAW (Torah). If church types are not under the LAW, then by extrapolation nobody owes a dime in tithe. Which is it, dear reader? Law or no Law, tithe or no tithe? We can't do it both ways and be right. (James 1:8)

Consider Torah, which says one puts a tithe of one's income aside TO BE SPENT ON WHATEVER ONE'S HEART DESIRES including strong drink, journeys to other cities and the purchase of non-essential items. Only once in 7 years does one give a tithe of one's money to the temple/church. (Leviticus) While there are exceptions to tithing enumerated in Torah, the basic idea is that one puts part of one's income aside for purposes other than simply living from one day to the next.

In summary, there are TWO LAWS which are discussed frequently by Jesus and the apostles. One is the LAW of grace, which has NOT been abolished and which binds one to act decently and in order. The other is the law of works, by which nobody can be saved, but which does form the basis for worldly religion.

We are saved FOR good works, not BY them.

It should be noted here that the post-modern church has fallen into the same religious trap as traditional Judaism.

Traditional Jews can observe Talmudic law and tradition and not even believe in Adonai/God. Traditional Jews have no problem with being an admitted atheist. It's about being Jewish, not about Adonai.

In the same way many church types, who observe gentile traditions, no longer feel bound to any moral code or spiritual responsibility. Such gentiles also admit to being atheists and agnostics. Indeed atheist churches are growing in popularity among secular persons who refuse to even acknowledge the existence of God. (Google it) It's about 'love and kindness' and not a whisper about the saving blood of the Lamb of God. THIS IS how far the lawLESS church has fallen.

The church has betrayed the gospel in that it now denies the LAW, exalts SIN and belittles Christ who was once its founder.(*)

If we think God will bless the church in this situation, we are dreaming the dreams of SINFUL delusion.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The protestant church now marches in lock step with Vatican doctrine and tradition. Christ is now portrayed as either a helpless infant or a dead guy on a stick. Neither portrayal suggests Jesus is in any way the powerful King of Kings the Bible tells us about.
 
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