What God said to me about Abortion

[Philip James]

When a civilization kills its children by the tens if millions, can it stand?

Do we think God does not see? Or care?

Unless we repent and beg for God's mercy can we escape the fate of Sodom?

 

[Stan B]

I Totally disagree! But that's OK!

But there is more than a parking ticket-- Read Exodus 21: 22-25 for the whole summery of context!

The remainder of the passage refers to the eye-for-an-eye, and life-for-a-life law. Since only a fine was levied for the destruction of a fetus, that would prove Scripturally, that a mere fetus is not considered a living being, otherwise the life-for-a-life law would have been required, and not simply a fine.

 

[Stan B]

Semantics! Like I said, when a woman wants the pregnancy, she calls what's in her womb a baby. I never called my unborn children "fetuses."

The fact that you called a fetus a baby, does not define the English language. That is the purpose of a dictionary:

fetus: "the young of an animal in the womb or egg"

baby: "an infant or very young child."

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The fact that you called a fetus a baby, does not define the English language. That is the purpose of a dictionary:

fetus: "the young of an animal in the womb or egg"

baby: "an infant or very young child."

Sir, WADR. as an English teacher, I'm not ignorant of the English language. It doesn't matter what you call the unborn baby.
He or she is a human being created in God's image.

 

[Stan B]

The bible doesn't mention "abortion" by name, I'm not sure people had reached our degree of evil back then and desired to kill their unborn?

The bible refers to a pregnant woman as being with child. "And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I am with child" (2 Samuel 11:5). Not going to have a child, but already with child. So perhaps God thought we were smart enough to recognize a human life? Its sad that today we seem to think an additional law was needed to inspire us not to rip a baby out of its mothers womb and kill it.

Dan57 says "The bible doesn't mention "abortion" by name"

Maybe your Bible doesn't but my Bible mentions it: "If a man begets a hundred sons and lives many years so that the days of his years are many, if his soul is not filled with good and also that he have no burial; I say that an aborted birth is better than he." Ecclesiastes 6:3

The Bible does not condemn it, but sees abortion as a favourable preference to an unfulfilled life.

As for your proof using the ancient "with child" idiom, in dated versions of the Bible, the Bible says no such thing.

Almost all translations other the KJV record this as "And the woman conceived; and she sent and told David, and said, “I am pregnant.”"

pregnant (harah) Strong's Hebrew 2030: pregnant

 

[Stan B]

Sir, WADR. as an English teacher, I'm not ignorant of the English language. It doesn't matter what you call the unborn baby.
He or she is a human being created in God's image.

PW, you are right! " A baby is a human being created in God's image. So . . what is God's image?? Is it flesh and blood, or is it a spirit?

So when do we receive our spirit created in God's image? The Bible says that happens after we are fully formed, and God breathes into our nostrils the breath of life, and we became a living being” (Genesis 2:7). A fetus does not breath with it's nostrils.

Job confirms this:

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay."
“The Spirit of God has made me,
"the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

The body is really unimportant. Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God. The body, is just a temporary housing unit to carry our spirit while we are here on earth. "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2

 

[Prayer Warrior]

PW, you are right! " A baby is a human being created in God's image. So . . what is God's image?? Is it flesh and blood, or is it a spirit?

So when do we receive our spirit created in God's image? The Bible says that happens after we are fully formed, and God breathes into our nostrils the breath of life, and we became a living being” (Genesis 2:7). A fetus does not breath with it's nostrils.

Job confirms this:

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay."
“The Spirit of God has made me,
"the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

The body is really unimportant. Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God. The body, is just a temporary housing unit to carry our spirit while we are here on earth. "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2

Your argument here is that the human body is unimportant?? Try premeditatedly murdering your neighbor (not really), and you'll see how unimportant the human body is.

 

[Stan B]

Your argument here is that the human body is unimportant?? Try premeditatedly murdering your neighbor (not really), and you'll see how unimportant the human body is.

Prayer Warrior, I suppose murdering my neighbour is okay if it is motivated by Jesus' last request to love my neighbour as myself, and of course submitting to Paul's admonition to submit to the laws of those who rule over me. <grin>

But seriously, Paul addressed the unimportance of the body in the eternal scheme of things:

"9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. . . 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. . . . we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Romans 8

For what it is worth, I never intended to get caught up in this anti-abortion debate nonsense. At 77 years of age, it is not a major issue in my life. Having never investigated what Scripture had to say about it, I always regarded it as being wrong. But then one day a couple years ago while participating in a private forum consisting of friends from the church, someone brought up the issue of abortion, citing stuff contrived from twisting Scripture and the English language beyond recognition.

So I studied abortion from a Scriptural perspective, and realized that nowhere in Scripture is abortion forbidden, and never made it to the 613 laws of the Torah, and that a fetus does not become a living being with a spirit, until they exit the womb and breath their first breath. So the spirit of the person that might have been intended for that fetus just waits with God, until the next an appropriate body becomes available for them.

All the arguments I have heard against abortion have merely served to confirm to me that this whole anti-abortion nonsense is just that. Scripturally illiterate people attempting to add to Scripture, something that is not there. The Bible contains a rather severe warning to people who do that.

 

[epostle]

I wonder what god talking to you?? Doesn't at all sound like the God of the Bible!
First of all no one aborts a child, it is a fetus.
And if God was at all against abortion, He would have mentioned it in Scripture.

That's as dumb as saying an acorn lacks the potential to become a tree.

ABORTION AS PAGAN SACRIFICE​

We know what the word “sacrifice” means. It means the surrender of something precious to the god in whom a person believes. Sacrifices have been part of world religions since the dawn of recorded history. Without exception, the deities of all the religions of the ancient world demanded sacrifices in their honor. The Egyptians and Babylonians, the Greeks and Romans, the deities of pre-Christian India and of the continent of Africa required that their adherents offer what we call sacrifices in their name.

What is less well known, however, is that these religions also required the sacrifice of children as an oblation and even as a condition, for obtaining blessings from the gods.
The Lord spoke through the prophet Jeremiah, charging the Jews of imitating the pagans in their practice of child homicide. Said the Lord, “They have built high places for Baal to immolate their sons in fire as holocausts to Baal: such a thing as I neither commanded nor spoke of, nor did it ever enter my mind.”

As we read statements like foregoing, we ask ourselves: how could human beings be so deluded as to seriously believe that their gods required human sacrifice as a condition for receiving divine favors? The key word is “deluded.” Thirty years of teaching comparative religion has taught me that there is no limit to the irrational, indeed insane, practices that religious mythology will not put into practice as a mandate from the deities in whom they believed. Thus we read in the history of the Aztecs in South America before Columbus that they would kill up to ten thousand children on a major feast day in honor of one of their gods. Although seldom mentioned, infanticide as a religious ritual was practiced in India before its colonization by Great Britain.

We return to the theses that should be explored far beyond the time we can give it in this conference. Abortion as the widespread practice that it has become today is incredibly a religious practice. It is inspired by the evil spirits who, in Christian terms, were and are the malignant deities of paganism. These deities, often goddesses, demanded the sacrifice of children to be propitiated. Unless children were killed and offered to these gods, they would avenge their anger against the people in the most devastating ways.

As believing Catholics, we know that behind the murder of unborn children is the superhuman mind and malevolent will of Satan and his minions. To know this is to also know that only divine power is a match for the demonic power behind abortion. This divine power is the power of the God who became man in order, as He told us, to conquer the devil as master of the world.
Fr. Hardon Archives - Abortion as Pagan Sacrifice

 

[epostle]

Prayer Warrior, I suppose murdering my neighbour is okay if it is motivated by Jesus' last request to love my neighbour as myself, and of course submitting to Paul's admonition to submit to the laws of those who rule over me. <grin>

But seriously, Paul addressed the unimportance of the body in the eternal scheme of things:

"9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. . . 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. . . . we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Romans 8

For what it is worth, I never intended to get caught up in this anti-abortion debate nonsense. At 77 years of age, it is not a major issue in my life. Having never investigated what Scripture had to say about it, I always regarded it as being wrong. But then one day a couple years ago while participating in a private forum consisting of friends from the church, someone brought up the issue of abortion, citing stuff contrived from twisting Scripture and the English language beyond recognition.

So I studied abortion from a Scriptural perspective, and realized that nowhere in Scripture is abortion forbidden, and never made it to the 613 laws of the Torah, and that a fetus does not become a living being with a spirit, until they exit the womb and breath their first breath. So the spirit of the person that might have been intended for that fetus just waits with God, until the next an appropriate body becomes available for them.

All the arguments I have heard against abortion have merely served to confirm to me that this whole anti-abortion nonsense is just that. Scripturally illiterate people attempting to add to Scripture, something that is not there. The Bible contains a rather severe warning to people who do that.

Luke 1:41 (NET)
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
That's quite amazing for a clump of tissue.(fetus)

 

[epostle]

The Second Vatican Council, in a passage which retains all its relevance today, forcefully condemned a number of crimes and attacks against human life. Thirty years later, taking up the words of the Council and with the same forcefulness I repeat that condemnation in the name of the whole Church, certain that I am interpreting the genuine sentiment of every upright conscience:

"Whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia, or wilful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where people are treated as mere instruments of gain rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others like them are infamies indeed. They poison human society, and they do more harm to those who practise them than to those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are a supreme dishonour to the Creator".Evangelium Vitae (25 March 1995) | John Paul II

Abortion violates the integrity of the human person. It is intrinsically evil.

 

[epostle]

It’s normal to grieve a pregnancy loss, including the loss of a child by abortion. It can form a hole in one’s heart, a hole so deep that sometimes it seems nothing can fill the emptiness.
Project Rachel - HopeAfterAbortion.org
Project Rachael ministers to women who have had an abortion.

"the largest and most definitive analysis of the mental health risks associated with abortion was published September 1, 2011 in the prestigious British Journal of Psychiatry (Coleman, PK, “Abortion and Mental Health: Quantitative Synthesis and Analysis of Research Published 1995-2009,” BJP 2011; 199:180-186). The meta-analysis conducted by Professor Priscilla Coleman, PhD of Bowling Green State University, examines twenty-two major studies published between 1995 and 2009 involving a total of 877,181 women, of whom 163,831 had abortions.

Taking into account all the mental health problems studied—anxiety, depression, alcohol use/misuse, marijuana use and all suicidal behaviors—here is what this rigorous analysis found:

Women who have had an abortion have an 81% higher risk of subsequent mental health problems compared to women who have not had an abortion.

• Women who aborted have a 138% higher risk of mental health problems compared to women who have given birth.
• Women who aborted have a 55% higher risk of mental health problems compared to women with an “unplanned” pregnancy who gave birth.
• Women with a history of abortion have higher rates of anxiety (34% higher), depression (37%), alcohol use/misuse (110%), marijuana use (230%), and suicidal behavior (155%), compared to those who have not had an abortion.

 

[Stan B]

Luke 1:41 (NET)
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
That's quite amazing for a clump of tissue.(fetus)

Epostle says >> "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb"

Whereas going by the Greek: "When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the fetus leaped in her womb"

Strongs 1025
an unborn child, embryo, fetus

The fact that the fetus "leaped" doesn't indicate anything significant. That's just a normal part of fetal development. In later months, fetuses kick about 30 times per hour. In this instance, the fetus was merely startled, reacting to the loud and boisterous sound of Mary greeting Elizabeth. Like is says in the Bible the fetus leaped "As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears".

So the fetus was merely reacted from being startled by a loud noise. And I can clearly envison the loud exhuberant meeting between Mary and Elizabeth. It is reasonalble to believe that Mary and her cousin did not see each other that often, since the arduous trip between their two homes was 112 km miles, and they did not have Uber in those days. And for a pregnant 13 year old girl like Mary, that must have been a really challenging trip.

In the original language, an embryo or fetus has no personhood until it is born. This is consistent with ancient Jewish law, wherein a fetus is just a part of the mother's body until it is born.

 

[Stan B]

>>That's as dumb as saying an acorn lacks the potential to become a tree.

That is a nonsensical remark. An acorn or any other living being is created from the earth. The earth has potential to create all sorts of stuff, but until that entity has been created potential doesn't matter. Only the finished product matters!

​

>>What is less well known, however, is that these religions also required the sacrifice of children as an oblation and even as a condition, for obtaining blessings from the gods.

It is quite well known that people offered their children as sacrifices Baal/Moloch, but they didn't offer fetuses.!

>>Thus we read in the history of the Aztecs in South America before Columbus that they would kill up to ten thousand children on a major feast day in honor of one of their gods. Although seldom mentioned, infanticide as a religious ritual was practiced in India before its colonization by Great Britain.

So again . . . they murdered children, not fetuses.

As believing Catholics, we know that behind the murder of unborn children is the superhuman mind and malevolent will of Satan and his minions.

I think you meant to say Roman Catholics, rather than Catholics. There is an eternity of difference between the two, and I am not remotely interested in the Romanist cult that rejects much of Scripture, and gets much of their scripture from a pagan goddess, called Mary Queen of Heaven revealed by the Prophet Jeremiah. I am ultra familiar with the Marian Movement of Priests who get messages from her spirit, that you can only get to Heaven through her. There are over 60,000 priests who subscribe to this pagan cult.

Mary was just a sinner like everyone else, and was hardly the fake Ever Virgin, since she had 6 kids after Jesus was born. She never magically ascended into Heaven, but died in Ephesus at age 65, where she was buried it the Church of Mary.

 

[Stan B]

Women who have had an abortion have an 81% higher risk of subsequent mental health problems compared to women who have not had an abortion

Not at all surprising that they suffer from guilt imposed upon them from false teaching loaded unto them from religions which ignore the Bible and make up their own unBiblical cult.

 

[epostle]

The British Journal of Psychiatry used "women" in their study that had nothing to do with their religions. I don't debate with arrogant, hateful, illiterate cultural war criminals, enemies of the human race. Good bye.

Folks, do yourself a favor and put this pro-death fanatic on ignore. Shake the dust...

 

[epostle]

 

[Truth]

The British Journal of Psychiatry used "women" in their study that had nothing to do with their religions. I don't debate with arrogant, hateful, illiterate cultural war criminals, enemies of the human race. Good bye.

Folks, do yourself a favor and put this pro-death fanatic on ignore. Shake the dust...

Yes, I do agree, seems to be sold out on life only after birth!

 

[epostle]

My "RCC cult" teaches me to respond to hate with love, patience and kindness. That puts burning coals on their heads. It's in Proverbs somewhere. That will be the day that I attain Christian perfection. Fat chance. But we have living models to emulate:

 

[Stan B]

Yes, I do agree, seems to be sold out on life only after birth!

He is only sold out on embracing the TRUTH of Scripture, and idea which some cults hate.