What God said to me about Abortion

[Prayer Warrior]

A fetus, a blob of unorganized flesh, is not a living being, nor ever will be, until
God breathes into it the breath of life, in essence installing the spirit of an individual into a fetus as it emerges from the womb.

You think the "fetus" is a DEAD being?? It's either alive or it's dead, sir. There's no in-between.

When do you consider a fetus to be a baby? The day that he/she is born? How about the day before being born? Is he/she not a baby on that day as well? Does the fetus magically become a baby when it issues forth from the mothers' womb?

This thinking may have flown before ultrasounds were invented, but too many of us moms have seen our babies while they were in the womb. WE could see that they were human babies! Like I said earlier in this thread, I could see that the baby of 8 weeks in my womb was a human baby with tiny fingers.

Perhaps you should go to YouTube and see for yourself what a baby in the womb looks like!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

BARNEYBRIGHT >>The early christians took a firm stand against abortions.

STAN B said:
Early Christians took no such stand!! Supply your source for such nonsense!![/Quote\]

One of the earliest documents of Christianity after the New Testament is the Didache, dated to around AD 80–120. The teaching describes two ways: the way of life and the way of death. The way of life demands that Christians “shall not murder a child by abortion nor commit infanticide.” Both abortion and infanticide were common in the Roman Empire. Christians were forbidden to murder any child, born or unborn.

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150–215) made clear the sin of women who “in order to hide their immorality, use abortive drugs which expel the matter completely dead, abort at the same time their human feelings.”

Tertullian (AD 160–240) taught even more comprehensively: “For us, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb.” These church fathers are just two examples of a pro-life position rejecting abortion that also included—at the very least—Athenagoras, Hippolytus, Basil the Great, Ambrose, Jerome, John Chrysostom, and Augustine.

As ethicist Ronald Sider comments, “Eight different authors in eleven different writings mention abortion. In every case, the writing unequivocally rejects abortion.” Michael J. Gorman states in Abortion and the Early Church: “All Christian writers opposed abortion.” Every mention of abortion in the early church rejects it forcefully.

There can be no question that early Christianity condemned abortion and affirmed the sanctity of human life, born and not yet born.

Let there be no confusion on this question. The Bible reveals the sanctity of all human life, the early church affirmed the sanctity of every human life, and anyone who performs an abortion is not “doing God’s work.” Rather, he is undoing it. As the Didache, echoing Deuteronomy, reminds us from so long ago, we are to choose the way of life, and never the way of death.

 

[BreadOfLife]

A fetus, a blob of unorganized flesh, is not a living being, nor ever will be, until
God breathes into it the breath of life, in essence installing the spirit of an individual into a fetus as it emerges from the womb.

Thar is complete, scientifically-debunked manure. This is not 1950.

4D ultrasounds, amniocentesis, genetic medicine ALL prove that an unborn child experiences pain, reacts evasively to medical instruments, has a heartbeat, full organ functions, and as complex a central nervous system as YOURS.

The ONLY difference is that most of them are smarter than you . . .

 

[Stan B]

The only time the breath of life was breathed into man was at creation. I've found no scripture that supports that God breathes the breath of life or as you say, installs the spirit of an individual into a fetus as it emerges from the womb. Show me a scripture that says that is what's happening at birth. The scriptures are showing me that we are souls not that we have souls and that the animals are souls as we are. The scriptures show that the spirit that's in man is the same spirit that's in animals so in death man has no superiority over the animals. Just as animals die so does man. I believe the only chance the man has is if God remembers him and resurrects him in the resurrection. So no I don't believe God breathes a spirit of an individual in the fetus as it emerges from the womb.

Barney Bright challenges >> "The only time the breath of life was breathed into man was at creation. I've found no scripture that supports that God breathes the breath of life or as you say, installs the spirit of an individual into a fetus as it emerges from the womb."

In the absence of finding any Scripture supporting your non-Biblical ideology, you have taken it upon yourself to write your own Scripture declaring that the only time God breathed the breath of life into man was at creation. Where do you find that falsehood in Scripture?? Show me where I am wrong!!

Job confirms this:

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay.
The Spirit of God has made me,
the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

The body is really unimportant. "Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God". The body is just a housing unit to temporarily carry our spirit while we are here on earth. "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2

God forms man from a pile of dust. It has no life on its own, it is created merely as a body to contain and convey the spirit of man. Then when the fetus is fully formed, God gives man his spirit, when He breathes into man's the nostrils the breath of life, and he becomes a living being. And then when death comes:

"Man's body returns to the dust from whence it came, And the spirit returns to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

Ezekiel's prophecy regarding the resurrection of the Valley of Dry Bones:
"3 He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, You know.” 4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’ 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath [spirit] to enter you that you may come to life. 6 I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord.’”

"7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army." Ezekiel 37:1-14

God declares that if He withdrew His Spirit and His Breath: "If He should determine to do so, If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust." Job 34:14-15

"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead." James 2:26 (ESV)

God declares that a body without breath is dead, and nostrils are not functional in the womb.

 

[Stan B]

Thar is complete, scientifically-debunked manure. This is not 1950.

4D ultrasounds, amniocentesis, genetic medicine ALL prove that an unborn child experiences pain, reacts evasively to medical instruments, has a heartbeat, full organ functions, and as complex a central nervous system as YOURS.

The ONLY difference is that most of them are smarter than you . . .

It is common knowledge that a fetus is physically active in the womb. In the latter months, they move around and kick about 30 times per hour. That's just their autonomic nervous system exercising muscles etc, to develop the muscular system before they are born.

That's just

 

[Stan B]

.The way I remember my reading of it was that, yes, if no mischief (death of the child) occurred, then yes, there would be a fine. But if mischief followed ( there would be death to the men).

.The way I remember my reading of it was that, yes, if no mischief (death of the child) occurred, then yes, there would be a fine. But if mischief followed ( there would be death to the men).

The law deals with men unintentionally causing an abortion.

If God would be so hard on the unintentional causing of an aborted fetus, I sure don't think He then is okay with an intentional causing of one!

The law deals with men unintentionally causing an abortion.

If God would be so hard on the unintentional causing of an aborted fetus, I sure don't think He then is okay with an intentional causing of one!

“If two men are fighting, and in the process hurt a pregnant woman so that she has a miscarriage, but she lives, then the man who injured her shall be fined whatever amount the woman’s husband shall demand, and as the judges approve.

Resorting to the English language, the dictionary defines a miscarriage as "the expulsion of a fetus before it is viable, especially between the third and seventh months of pregnancy; spontaneous abortion."

While this passage deals with an unintentional abortion, if the woman a living human being is unintentionally injured, the law of eye-for-an-eye, life-for-a-life applies.

Since this passage lacks clarity, it probably doesn't provide a good theological foundation for systematic belief.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is common knowledge that a fetus is physically active in the womb. In the latter months, they move around and kick about 30 times per hour. That's just their autonomic nervous system exercising muscles etc, to develop the muscular system before they are born.

That's just

“Automatic” nervous system “exercising” muscles??

I thought it was a “blob of unorganized flesh”??
Sooooooo, which is it??

A complex, organized central nervous system surrounded by fully-functioning organs, human tissue, a complex arterial and venous system all operated in perfect sync by a fully functioning brain – or a “blob of unorganized flesh”??

Can you make up your mind??
Your hypocrisy is matched ONLY by your abject ignorance of ALL matters biological . . .

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Stan B says: In the absence of finding any Scripture supporting your non-Biblical ideology, you have taken it upon yourself to write your own Scripture declaring that the only time God breathed the breath of life into man was at creation. Where do you find that falsehood in Scripture?? Show me where I am wrong!!

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay.
The Spirit of God has made me,
the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33[/QUOTE\]

#1 JOB didn't say this particular scripture Elihu did.
#2 You know Elihu wasn't being literal when he said this. Elihu wasn't saying that like Adam God took clay from the ground and literally formed a body for Elihu like he did with Adam. Elihu had a human father, he was born. Adam didn't have a human father, he was literally created by God. God was Adams father.
#3 just as Elihu wasn't saying he was literally created like Adam he wasn't saying God literally blew the breath of life into him like he literally blew the breath of life into Adam. You can't take these scriptures literally as you are trying to do.

 

[Stan B]

Thar is complete, scientifically-debunked manure. This is not 1950.

4D ultrasounds, amniocentesis, genetic medicine ALL prove that an unborn child experiences pain, reacts evasively to medical instruments, has a heartbeat, full organ functions, and as complex a central nervous system as YOURS.

The ONLY difference is that most of them are smarter than you . . .

You think the "fetus" is a DEAD being?? It's either alive or it's dead, sir. There's no in-between.

When do you consider a fetus to be a baby? The day that he/she is born? How about the day before being born? Is he/she not a baby on that day as well? Does the fetus magically become a baby when it issues forth from the mothers' womb?

This thinking may have flown before ultrasounds were invented, but too many of us moms have seen our babies while they were in the womb. WE could see that they were human babies! Like I said earlier in this thread, I could see that the baby of 8 weeks in my womb was a human baby with tiny fingers.

Perhaps you should go to YouTube and see for yourself what a baby in the womb looks like!

Stan B says: In the absence of finding any Scripture supporting your non-Biblical ideology, you have taken it upon yourself to write your own Scripture declaring that the only time God breathed the breath of life into man was at creation. Where do you find that falsehood in Scripture?? Show me where I am wrong!!

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay.
The Spirit of God has made me,
the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33[/QUOTE\]

#1 JOB didn't say this particular scripture Elihu did.
#2 You know Elihu wasn't being literal when he said this. Elihu wasn't saying that like Adam God took clay from the ground and literally formed a body for Elihu like he did with Adam. Elihu had a human father, he was born. Adam didn't have a human father, he was literally created by God. God was Adams father.
#3 just as Elihu wasn't saying he was literally created like Adam he wasn't saying God literally blew the breath of life into him like he literally blew the breath of life into Adam. You can't take these scriptures literally as you are trying to do.

Your response reminds me of the snake in the Garden . . . . "Did God REALLY say that???"

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Stan B says:
The body is really unimportant. "Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God". The body is just a housing unit to temporarily carry our spirit while we are here on earth. "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2[/QUOTE\]

So you're saying when God created Adam as a flesh and blood being God didn't want Adam to stay that way because God thinks as you do, that the flesh and blood body is unimportant and it's just a housing unit to temporarily carry, what you call man's spirit while on Earth.

I disagree. Reasoning as you're reasoning is basically saying God never wanted Earth to be Adams permanent home. The problem with that is you're implying God wanted Adam to sin to be disobedient because that's the only reason the spirit that's in man returns to God. You truly believe God wanted Adam to be disobedient. I don't believe that about God, maybe you do. Everything I've read concerning When God created Adam is that God didn't want Adam to die. It looks to me that God wanted Earth to be Adams permanent home therefore his flesh and blood body wasn't that unimportant. As I said before the spirit in man is the same as the spirit that's in animals. So in death man has no superiority in death. The only hope a person has when a person dies, is if God remembers them in the resurrection.


Stan B says:
Ezekiel's prophecy regarding the resurrection of the Valley of Dry Bones:
"3 He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, You know.” 4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’ 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath [spirit] to enter you that you may come to life. 6 I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord.’”

"7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army." Ezekiel 37:1-14[/QUOTE\]

Stan, this is a prophecy therefore a vision, it didn't literally happen. Verse 11 let's you know that the dry bones stood for the house of Israel. You see before Babylon came and destroyed Jerusalem and it's Temple Ezekiel was prophesying that because of Israel unfaithfulness God had removed his protection and was going use Babylon to punish Israel. The people of Israel didn't believe him and thought he was crazy. The people were shocked and in complete despair and hopelessness when it did happen however. The people of Israel were believing they would never see Israel or be in God's Temple again and that's when God showed Ezekiel this vision to tell the people. God asked Ezekiel in this vision if he believed if God could resurrect these people, Ezekiel of course knew God could and just as God can resurrect people back to life God can resurrect the nation of Israel back to life, which he did when the Medo-persian Empire destroyed Babylon and set the Jews free and a remnant went and restored Jerusalem and it's Temple.

 

[Stan B]

Stan B says:
The body is really unimportant. "Flesh and blood do not inherit the Kingdom of God". The body is just a housing unit to temporarily carry our spirit while we are here on earth. "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2[/QUOTE\]

So you're saying when God created Adam as a flesh and blood being God didn't want Adam to stay that way because God thinks as you do, that the flesh and blood body is unimportant and it's just a housing unit to temporarily carry, what you call man's spirit while on Earth.

I disagree. Reasoning as you're reasoning is basically saying God never wanted Earth to be Adams permanent home. The problem with that is you're implying God wanted Adam to sin to be disobedient because that's the only reason the spirit that's in man returns to God. You truly believe God wanted Adam to be disobedient. I don't believe that about God, maybe you do. Everything I've read concerning When God created Adam is that God didn't want Adam to die. It looks to me that God wanted Earth to be Adams permanent home therefore his flesh and blood body wasn't that unimportant. As I said before the spirit in man is the same as the spirit that's in animals. So in death man has no superiority in death. The only hope a person has when a person dies, is if God remembers them in the resurrection.


Stan B says:
Ezekiel's prophecy regarding the resurrection of the Valley of Dry Bones:
"3 He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, You know.” 4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’ 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath [spirit] to enter you that you may come to life. 6 I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord.’”

"7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” 10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army." Ezekiel 37:1-14[/QUOTE\]

Stan, this is a prophecy therefore a vision, it didn't literally happen. Verse 11 let's you know that the dry bones stood for the house of Israel. You see before Babylon came and destroyed Jerusalem and it's Temple Ezekiel was prophesying that because of Israel unfaithfulness God had removed his protection and was going use Babylon to punish Israel. The people of Israel didn't believe him and thought he was crazy. The people were shocked and in complete despair and hopelessness when it did happen however. The people of Israel were believing they would never see Israel or be in God's Temple again and that's when God showed Ezekiel this vision to tell the people. God asked Ezekiel in this vision if he believed if God could resurrect these people, Ezekiel of course knew God could and just as God can resurrect people back to life God can resurrect the nation of Israel back to life, which he did when the Medo-persian Empire destroyed Babylon and set the Jews free and a remnant went and restored Jerusalem and it's Temple.

Nevertheless, this prophecy confirms the essence of the Breath of God being the the sole source of life. No breath, no life. Just a useless piece of dirt.

Concerning Ezekiel's prophecy of the Valley of Dry bones. within context of his prophecy, the resurrection of the Valley of Dry Bones is happening today as rabid anti-semitism is increasing at a phenomenal rate around the world, and the Dry Bones are returning to the Land of the Covenant.
Next comes the rebuilding of the Temple!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Your response reminds me of the snake in the Garden . . . . "Did God REALLY say that???"

Believe what you want but those scriptures you tried to use to support your beliefs speaks out against what you believe

 

[Stan B]

Believe what you want but those scriptures you tried to use to support your beliefs speaks out against what you believe

It doesn't speak out against what believe! It speaks for what I believe! I believe what the Bible says, and will never sink into the demonic cesspool that declares "God really didn't mean to say that, and everything He says can be written off to some sort of imaginary cannabis induced fantasy.

You and I serve very different gods/Gods!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Nevertheless, this prophecy confirms the essence of the Breath of God being the the sole source of life. No breath, no life. Just a useless piece of dirt.

Concerning Ezekiel's prophecy of the Valley of Dry bones. within context of his prophecy, the resurrection of the Valley of Dry Bones is happening today as rabid anti-semitism is increasing at a phenomenal rate around the world, and the Dry Bones are returning to the Land of the Covenant.
Next comes the rebuilding of the Temple!

That's not what's going on concerning that prophecy but to speak of what the prophecy that Ezekiel got from God is saying would be touching on another subject.


When it comes to the breath of life, I agree that without the breath of the spirit of life a human being is dead. I never said otherwise, I said that the spirit that's in man is the same spirit that's in animals.

Created in God's image Adam had Devine attributes of love, wisdom, justice, and power; hence he possessed a sense of morality involving a conscience, but it was not necessary for Adam to be a spirit creature, in whole or in part, to possess these Godlike qualities. In other words the spirit in man doesn't give him these divine qualities as love, justice, wisdom etc just as this same spirit that's in animals doesn't give them such divine qualities. The spirit in man is the same spirit that's in animals.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

It doesn't speak out against what believe! It speaks for what I believe! I believe what the Bible says, and will never sink into the demonic cesspool that declares "God really didn't mean to say that, and everything He says can be written off to some sort of imaginary cannabis induced fantasy.

You and I serve very different gods/Gods!

Yes I believe the scriptures no matter how much you think I don't.

 

[Stan B]

the spirit in man doesn't give him these divine qualities as love, justice, wisdom etc just as this same spirit that's in animals doesn't give them such divine qualities. The spirit in man is the same spirit that's in animals.

Barney says: "The spirit in man is the same spirit that's in animals."

Duh!! You never quote Scripture to support your non-Scriptural fantasies.

Have a nice day Barney!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Barney says: "The spirit in man is the same spirit that's in animals."

Duh!! You never quote Scripture to support your non-Scriptural fantasies.

Have a nice day Barney!

human death does not differ from that of the animals. They too are souls, and the same spirit, or life force, energizes them. (Genesis 1:24) At Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20, the wise man Solomon tells us: “As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that [in death] there is no superiority of the man over the beast . . . They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.” Man was superior to the beasts in that he was created in God’s image, reflecting the qualities of Jehovah. (Genesis 1:26, 27) Yet, at death humans and animals alike return to the dust.

 

[A_Man]

I wonder what god talking to you?? Doesn't at all sound like the God of the Bible!

First of all no one aborts a child, it is a fetus.

And if God was at all against abortion, He would have mentioned it in Scripture.

Have you ever read, "Thou shalt not kill." or "Do not murder."

The LXX translation of the commandments regarding a man who causes a miscarriage during a fight prescribes the death penalty in such a situation.

The Didache version of what appears quite similar to the sermon on the mount forbids abortion. Early Christians did not believe in it.

John the baptist was a baby in his mother's womb, not just a lump of flesh. He was also filled with the Holy Spirit.