What I Like About Universalism

[Duckybill]

Yes they are consistently errant.

How are you qualified to make such a damning statement???

I do agree that hell is real and eternal but it can not be unending and forever. You misunderstand the scriptures.

TOTAL contradiction.

How long was Jonah in the fish's belly? For ever?
Is the old covenant for ever?

Why are you changing the subject???

Tis the same Hebrew word olam and the same Greek word aion .

How are you more qualified than those who translated our English Bible???

The early ekklesia understood and taught universal reconciliation just as Paul, Peter and the other apostles.

It's all right there in historical writings and the scriptures, but religious paradigm can be quite blinding, eh Ducky.

You profess to be expert in Greek and Hebrew, but you have no credentials Jiggy. Stop patting yourself on the back.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Universalism?

Hmmm the name gives us some clues here. They are Universal!

 

[jiggyfly]

How are you qualified to make such a damning statement???

I can see when something doesn't make sense it's called common sense Ducky.

TOTAL contradiction.

Please point out the contradiction.

Why are you changing the subject???

Changing the subject? Again proving my doubts about you are correct. Ducky both verses contain the the same Greek word aion .

How are you more qualified than those who translated our English Bible???

Never said I was more qualified. Have you ever read Young's Literal, the Concordant Literal, or Rotherham's Emphasized bible? They are English translations.

You profess to be expert in Greek and Hebrew, but you have no credentials Jiggy. Stop patting yourself on the back.

Show me where I have ever "professed to be expert in Greek and Hebrew".
How do you know that I have no credentials Ducky. You know very little about me. Try sticking to the topic if you can.

 

[TheWarIs1]

Show me where I have ever "professed to be expert in Greek and Hebrew".
How do you know that I have no credentials Ducky. You know very little about me. Try sticking to the topic if you can.

That's the way ducky argues;

one of the many that defend an indoctrination that they grew up with

 

[Foreigner]

There is one good thing about believing in "Universalism."

Where you will go after you die will be cheap. The heat is already paid.

 

[Kingdomfashionz]

There is nothing good about Universalism.

 

[jiggyfly]

There is one good thing about believing in "Universalism."

Where you will go after you die will be cheap. The heat is already paid.

So believing that God's Word does not return without accomplishing what He sent it to do is wrong???

You guys are ludicrous.

There is nothing good about Universalism.

Nothing Good about God reconciling all? Are you related to the prodigal? His brother perhaps?

 

[aspen]

So believing that God's Word does not return without accomplishing what He sent it to do is wrong???

You guys are ludicrous.

Nothing Good about God reconciling all? Are you related to the prodigal? His brother perhaps?

Hi Jiggy,

I think I have been clear about my position on Hell, despite the fact that Ducky believes I am afraid of the issue. Anyway, I think it is crazy that forgiven people who rely solely on God's grace are almost licking their chops at the idea of God carrying out His vengeance on people who failed to say the same sinner's prayer that they were fortunate enough to say. People who prefer God's mercy for themselves and God's justice for everyone else are completely blind.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hi Jiggy,

I think I have been clear about my position on Hell, despite the fact that Ducky believes I am afraid of the issue. Anyway, I think it is crazy that forgiven people who rely solely on God's grace are almost licking their chops at the idea of God carrying out His vengeance on people who failed to say the same sinner's prayer that they were fortunate enough to say. People who prefer God's mercy for themselves and God's justice for everyone else are completely blind.

I totally agree Aspen and want to add that at one time I held the same stinking and prideful attitude that you just described but thanks to HolySpirit for convicting me of my error and revealing the truth.

That's the way ducky argues;

one of the many that defend an indoctrination that they grew up with

I agree some here are very bound by religion.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yo Ducky still waiting for those answers.

 

[aspen]

I totally agree Aspen and want to add that at one time I held the same stinking and prideful attitude that you just described but thanks to HolySpirit for convicting me of my error and revealing the truth.

I think in order to transcend our religion, we need to internalize Christian doctrines and orthodox teachings, process all that stuff, turning it from self-gratification to love and then we are ready to serve others because we realize that God loves us and we are able to love others.

Unfortunately, many people cling to the external parts of religion, superstitiously, and end up priding themselves on how well they know the Bible and how clever their theological understanding is; their faith stalls in the love of the external, which morphs into self-righteousness.

It is sort of like getting caught up in the details of tying your shoes rather than running a marathon. The only time the shoe tying portion of the exercise becomes an issue is if it is not done correctly, but no one is going to give you an award for tying your shoe.

Doctrine, Theology, reading the Bible, participating in the sacraments, are all forms of tying your shoe; loving God and others is running the marathon.

 

[tomwebster]

...
Unfortunately, many people cling to the external parts of religion, superstitiously, and end up priding themselves on how well they know the Bible ..., reading the Bible, ..., are all forms of tying your shoe; ...

You really think reading and studying Scripture is like "tying your shoes?" You need to see if you are running the correct race. If you love your children you are going to correct them and discipline them sometimes. You might also feed them good food not just ice cream.

 

[jiggyfly]

I think in order to transcend our religion, we need to internalize Christian doctrines and orthodox teachings, process all that stuff, turning it from self-gratification to love and then we are ready to serve others because we realize that God loves us and we are able to love others.

Unfortunately, many people cling to the external parts of religion, superstitiously, and end up priding themselves on how well they know the Bible and how clever their theological understanding is; their faith stalls in the love of the external, which morphs into self-righteousness.

It is sort of like getting caught up in the details of tying your shoes rather than running a marathon. The only time the shoe tying portion of the exercise becomes an issue is if it is not done correctly, but no one is going to give you an award for tying your shoe.

Doctrine, Theology, reading the Bible, participating in the sacraments, are all forms of tying your shoe; loving God and others is running the marathon.

I agree but I think it is very helpful to know God's plan so you can co-operate and not be on the other side found resisting, rebelling and/or opposing Father.

I also agree that religion is a hindrance to us all from becoming what Father has purposed.

 

[Duckybill]

I can see when something doesn't make sense it's called common sense Ducky.

The Bible common sense?

Please point out the contradiction.

Related to ETERNAL

Synonyms: ageless, continuing, dateless, enduring, abiding, everlasting, immortal, imperishable, lasting, ongoing, perennial, perpetual, timeless, undying

http://www.merriam-w...tionary/eternal

Changing the subject? Again proving my doubts about you are correct. Ducky both verses contain the the same Greek word aion .

Both are perfectly clear to anyone who is unbiased. Forever is forever.

[font="tahoma]Never said I was more qualified. Have you ever read Young's Literal, the Concordant Literal, or Rotherham's Emphasized bible? They are English translations.[/font][/color][/size][size="3"]

[font="tahoma]Our English Bibles are very consistent. Those who end up in Hell will NEVER get out.
[quote][/font][/color][/size] [size="3"]Show me where I have ever "professed to be expert in Greek and Hebrew".[/quote]
"Yes they are consistently errant."

How do you know that I have no credentials Ducky. You know very little about me.

It's easy. You and MANY others are using the same tactics. There's been several in this forum.

Try sticking to the topic if you can.

I am Jiggy, I am. If there's no eternal Hell I can't lose. How about you?

 

[Duckybill]

That's the way ducky argues;

one of the many that defend an indoctrination that they grew up with

That just proves how wrong you are. I grew up in an extremely ungodly family. I got saved at age 30. Been to MANY churches but didn't stay.

Hi Jiggy,

I think I have been clear about my position on Hell, despite the fact that Ducky believes I am afraid of the issue. Anyway, I think it is crazy that forgiven people who rely solely on God's grace are almost licking their chops at the idea of God carrying out His vengeance on people who failed to say the same sinner's prayer that they were fortunate enough to say. People who prefer God's mercy for themselves and God's justice for everyone else are completely blind.

The writers of the Bible weren't "licking their chops". They were simply giving warnings, many clear warnings.

2 Peter 2:4-6 (ESV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; [sup]5 [/sup]if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; [sup]6 [/sup]if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

 

[jiggyfly]

The Bible common sense?

Are you familiar with the term " common sense"? Webster's says "sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts".

Related to ETERNAL

Synonyms: ageless, continuing, dateless, enduring, abiding, everlasting, immortal, imperishable, lasting, ongoing, perennial, perpetual, timeless, undying

http://www.merriam-w...tionary/eternal

Now look up Greek aion and the Hebrew word olam and you will see that they mean much more than "eternal" or "for ever". You will find that in most cases they both mean "age during".

If you have to use English translations I suggest Young'sliteral, the Concordant literal, or Rotherham's emphasized.

Both are perfectly clear to anyone who is unbiased. Forever is forever.

So you believe that the old covenant with Israel is forever? They don't need to come to Father through Christ?


And you believe that Jonah is still in the belly of the fish? How did he preach to Nineveh? Do you see the error? Olam and aion can not possibly always mean for ever.
But again I doubt you will put forth any effort and study it for yourself.

Our English Bibles are very consistent. Those who end up in Hell will NEVER get out.

You won't find that in the Young's , Concordant, and Rotherham's translations and yes they are English translations. Which knowing this I doubt you would read them, it would challenge your religious paradigm.

"Yes they are consistently errant."

This your answer to "Show me where I have ever "professed to be expert in Greek and Hebrew"." No wonder you misunderstand the scriptures and the posts of others. You need to pray and ask God to help you with your presumptuous thinking. You really need help Ducky, you seem to have trouble debating the facts. You seem to always resort to personal attack. Praying for you.

It's easy. You and MANY others are using the same tactics. There's been several in this forum.

[font="tahoma][color="#5d5d5d"]Again this is your answer to "[/color][/font]How do you know that I have no credentials Ducky. You know very little about me." Yet another example of your presumptuous thinking Ducky. Actually You know nothing about my credentials because I do not broadcast them.

I am Jiggy, I am. If there's no eternal Hell I can't lose. How about you?

Personal attacks are not sticking to the topic. I also see your reasoning here in "If there is no eternal hell I can't loose" You seem to choose the way in which the odds are in your favor. Yet it seems for you it is still a gamble.

You really think reading and studying Scripture is like "tying your shoes?" You need to see if you are running the correct race. If you love your children you are going to correct them and discipline them sometimes. You might also feed them good food not just ice cream.

I didn't take Aspen as meaning that, but here's something more to contemplate, the fact that the pharisees knew the scriptures yet they never even entered the gate to start the race.

 

[Duckybill]

Are you familiar with the term " common sense"? Webster's says "

[font="Verdana][size="3"]sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts". [/size][/font]

Like when God drowned everyone on Earth but 8?

Now look up Greek aion and the Hebrew word olam and you will see that they mean much more than "eternal" or "for ever". You will find that in most cases they both mean "age during".

If you have to use English translations I suggest Young'sliteral, the Concordant literal, or Rotherham's emphasized.

Which Scriptures are you referring to? Let's see what our English Bibles have to say.

So you believe that the old covenant with Israel is forever?

Of couse not, because the NT says differently.

They don't need to come to Father through Christ?

They do now.

And you believe that Jonah is still in the belly of the fish? How did he preach to Nineveh? Do you see the error? Olam and aion can not possibly always mean for ever.
But again I doubt you will put forth any effort and study it for yourself.

You're playing word games. And making it personal.

[font="tahoma]You won't find that in the Young's , Concordant, and Rotherham's translations and yes they are English translations. Which knowing this I doubt you would read them, it would challenge your religious paradigm.[/font][/color][/size][/quote]
Try comparing our English Bibles. They are consistent. And they clearly teach punishment in the eternal fire.
[quote]
[/size][size="3"][font="tahoma]This your answer to "[/font][/color][/size][/size][size="3"][font="tahoma]Show me where I have ever "professed to be expert in Greek and Hebrew"." No wonder you misunderstand the scriptures and the posts of others. You need to pray and ask God to help you with your presumptuous thinking. You really need help Ducky, you seem to have trouble debating the facts. You seem to always resort to personal attack. Praying for you.[/font][/color][/size][size="3"]

What is it that you are doing now Jiggy? Your statement is a blatant attack on our English Bibles.

"Yes they are consistently errant."

[font="tahoma][size="3"]Again this is your answer to "

[/font][font="tahoma]How do you know that I have no credentials Ducky. You know very little about me." Yet another example of your presumptuous thinking Ducky. Actually You know [b]nothing[/b] about my credentials because I do not broadcast them. [/font][/color][/size][size="3"]

So then tell us how you have better credentials than those who wrote our many English Bibles.

[font="tahoma]Personal attacks are not sticking to the topic. I also see your reasoning here in "If there is no eternal hell I can't loose" You seem to choose the way in which the odds are in your favor. Yet it seems for you it is still a gamble.[/font][/color][/size][size="3"]

Just stating an indisputable fact Jiggy. If you're right I can't go to Hell. If you're wrong you will be held accountable for everyone who goes to Hell because they believed you.

 

[aspen]

The writers of the Bible weren't "licking their chops". They were simply giving warnings, many clear warnings.


2 Peter 2:4-6 (ESV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; [sup]5 [/sup]if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; [sup]6 [/sup]if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Did you think I was speaking about the authors of the Bible?

 

[aspen]

You really think reading and studying Scripture is like "tying your shoes?" You need to see if you are running the correct race. If you love your children you are going to correct them and discipline them sometimes. You might also feed them good food not just ice cream.

As a piano player, you can know your scales blindfolded, but if you never learn how to play music, you have not mastered the piano. No one goes to concerts to hear a concert pianist play scales. Learning from the Bible, theology and doctrines is an important first step, but without love, it is all worthless. I am sorry that you see the love part of Christianity as the desert, when it is actually the entire point.

 

[aspen]

Just stating an indisputable fact Jiggy. If you're right I can't go to Hell. If you're wrong you will be held accountable for everyone who goes to Hell because they believed you.

This is a troubling statement, based in fear. Pascal's wager has never been a satisfying reason for faith because it only addresses the mind, not the heart. Believing in God simply to avoid Hell misses the entire point of sanctification and could only be thought up by a logical, mathematician like Pascal. Jiggy is calling people to more than just hunkering down in correct doctrine and waiting for Christ so they can provide the correct verses so He will not smite them. He is calling people to come out of their fear and oppression and allow Christ to teach them to love.

I am not a Christian because it makes sense and I am hedging my bets.....I am a Christian because I desire to graduate from the School of Love and become what I was created to be, fully human.