What is a Spirit?

[Stan B]

All good ,we all shall stand before our Father on our own,what I say on these forums ,I shall be judged by,I'm comfortable with that.

Just planting seeds,and I still say the flesh won't rise

n2thelight >> You and I are traveling a much different path. My beloved wife went home 4 years ago, and I no longer have the stamina to even attend a church service. And I have wondered, what purpose has been served by my intensive study of Scripture over the past for 65 years. It now all seems to have been such a useless waste of time. I still have the physical ability to operate a keyboard, but some of the forums I have encountered on the internet have been somewhat less than fulfilling. This forum seems to be somewhat better than most, but calls for the moderators to suppress free speech has not led to respect such activists. That is an ethic that comes from their gawd allah, whom some participants desire to embrace. :-(

 

[n2thelight]

Okay so my question,don't take this the wrong way,as I know my Father knows all,and I also know my ways are not like His

So you mean to tell me ,starting with satan,God said I'm going to create him knowing that he will sin

n2thelight >> You and I are traveling a much different path. My beloved wife went home 4 years ago, and I no longer have the stamina to even attend a church service. And I have wondered, what purpose has been served by my intensive study of Scripture over the past for 65 years. It now all seems to have been such a useless waste of time. I still have the physical ability to operate a keyboard, but some of the forums I have encountered on the internet have been somewhat less than fulfilling. This forum seems to be somewhat better than most, but calls for the moderators to suppress free speech has not led to respect such activists. That is an ethic that comes from their gawd allah, whom some participants desire to embrace. :-(

If I may without offending you which is not my intention,where do you think your wife is now?

Not as old but Im getting there

 

[OzSpen]

The same sort of person who formulated the other understanding of the verse.

So, Jay, are you saying this is your understanding of the verse?

If so, would you please provide your exegesis of it so that I better understand why you reached the conclusion that 'Genesis 2:17 was pointing to a time over 7,000 years into the future when "dying the second death" of the sinners would be implemented.'

 

[OzSpen]

The flesh is weak and corrupt ,that's why it won't rise.

Prof J A Schep disagrees with you. See: Resurrection of the flesh-body.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes I believe that we were all created at the same time,as for mormonism I'm not.The book of Job gives it to ya

God asked Job where was he when He created this earth. At the creation of this earth all the stars and the sons of God shouted for joy,they saw what He did and were very happy about it.

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Do we have understanding?

Job 38:5 "Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?"

Who has determined the measurement of the sun, moon, and earth, and placed the line or signs of the constellations around the earth?

Job 38:6 "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;"

God is asking, what holds this earth exactly where it is, do you know Job? do you know Elihu? Stop and think for a moment of all the laws of God, those dealing with gravity, with magnetism, with heat and pressures and all the other things that go to make up the atmosphere of the earth that we live on, and rely on for our life, as we live here in these flesh bodies. This sets our Heavenly Father in a class all by Himself. Man is nothing compared to the Creator.

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy? We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh. All souls were there and Satan also was there with all of them. Some how the people of this earth age are trying to forget Satan and the role that he played at the rebellion in that first earth age. We see that Satan was not in the conversation with Job and his friends at this time. They all have overlooked the overall plan of God. However had Job known the plan of God, where would he have been then, when the foundations of this earth were laid and the angels were rejoicing? Of course He would have been there with the rest of them, where we all were. You see, we the elect of God were chosen before the foundations of this earth were laid, and so was Job.

Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world [age], that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children of Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

n2t,

Job 38:1-7 (ERV) does not teach what you claim it means:

Then the Lord spoke to Job from a whirlwind and said,
2 “Who is this ignorant person
saying these foolish things?
3 Prepare yourself for an attack!
Get ready to answer the questions I will ask you.

4 “Where were you when I made the earth?
If you are so smart, answer me.
5 And who decided how big the earth should be?
Who measured it with a measuring line?
6 What is the earth resting on?
Who put the first stone in its place
7 when the morning stars sang together
and the angels shouted with joy?​

God was asking Job rhetorical questions to gain Job's understanding of the foundation of the world and the Creator. He was not teaching a doctrine of pre-existence of all people. God knows about all of us because of his omniscience (all-knowledge):'Lord, you know what I want to say, even before the words leave my mouth' (Ps 139:4 ERV).

According to the NIV, NLT and ERV translations of Job 38:7 and Job 1:6, the 'sons of God' are angels.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(6) Sons of God.--Comp. Job 38:7, Genesis 6:2; Genesis 6:4; and for the sense comp. 1Kings 22:19. The phrase probably means the angels; or at all events an incident in the unseen spiritual world is referred to simultaneous with a corresponding one on earth. (Comp. 1Corinthians 11:10.) In the latter sense, a solemn thought is suggested by it to those who join in the public worship of God.

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 6. - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord. By "the sons of God" it is generally admitted that, in this place, the angels are meant (so again in Job 38:7). The meaning of the phrase is probably different in Genesis 6:2. Angels and men are alike "sons of God," as created by him, in his image, to obey and serve him. Christ, the "Only Begotten," is his Son in quite a different sense. We may gather, perhaps, from this place and Job 2:1 that there are fixed times at which the angelic host, often sent out by the Almighty on distant errands, has to gather together, one and all, before the great white throne, to pay homage to their Lord, and probably to give an account of their doings.​

Eph 1:4-5 have nothing to do with any doctrine of pre-existence of human beings. It has to do with God's predestination.

Oz

 

[Jay Ross]

So, Jay, are you saying this is your understanding of the verse?

If so, would you please provide your exegesis of it so that I better understand why you reached the conclusion that 'Genesis 2:17 was pointing to a time over 7,000 years into the future when "dying the second death" of the sinners would be implemented.'

I simply read the bible, like you do and allowed God to speak to me.

If Hades and the second death are dispatched into the Lake of Fire by Christ after the time of judgement, Rv_20:14 and since hades can be found to be existing on the first day of creation, then the death, i.e. the second death, would also be found mentioned at the beginning of time for mankind.

The only reference were I could find a reference to the second death was in Genesis_2:17 and chasing through the references to 'Taamuwt" in other sections of the Old Testament a pattern emerged concerning the consequences of sin and that even if you were destined to die the second death before you physically died and drew your last breath, if you repented of your sin(s) that God would forgive that person and they would live an everlasting life. The evidence that the second death could be found in the OT was a revelation to me at that time. Christ and the disciples, as recorded in the NT also made references to the Second Death.

My revelation was more of a light being switched on, rather than a full blown exegesis.

Having a heap of letters after your name does not always help to provide the answer. My take is that all they mean is that you are trainable to think in a certain way. What I have observed in my professional life is that progress and new ideas often do not come out of the respective fields where one would expect new ideas and progress would be developed.

Shalom

 

[OzSpen]

My revelation was more of a light being switched on, rather than a full blown exegesis.

Having a heap of letters after your name does not always help to provide the answer. My take is that all they mean is that you are trainable to think in a certain way. What I have observed in my professional life is that progress and new ideas often do not come out of the respective fields where one would expect new ideas and progress would be developed.

Shalom

Is that meant to by a put down of my PhD in New Testament?

 

[Jay Ross]

Is that meant to by a put down of my PhD in New Testament?

I would have to read your PHD dissertation before I made that judgement about you.

I worked with a "Doctor" within the Engineering field and he was a first principles person and useless from a practical point of view.

He changed my spec on 25 MPa high pressure piping to save a few cents simple by going from 16 gauge to 18 gauge on 1/2" tubing without inform me of his change. Within weeks of putting in a new compressor to his new spec, the 18 gauge tubing failed within a confined space and we had the expense then of replacing all of the 18 gauge tubing that had been installed on his instruction. I had already had approved the 16 gauge tubing by the Government authority. His design was based on him using too low a pressure and not taking into account cyclic fatigue of the tubing by keeping the design stress levels below 100 MPa, which I had done. I had to put out a directive that only 1/2" 16 gauge tubing could be used and under no circumstances could 18 gauge tubing be used in the future.

Within a theological environment, people of learning have held back understanding. For example, Gen_12:1 speaks of Abraham going to an earth that God would show him, but the "scholarly" tradition steadfastly insists that Abraham was to go to a land that God would show him.

God was wanting to lead Abraham and his descendants to a righteous place but the translation of this one verse has an impact on how we read the rest of the prophecies in the OT.

The same is true for Gen_2:17 in that the second death mentioned in this verse has become hidden in the twiddle written about what is implied in the verse. Because of the distant future in which this verse will be implemented, previous scholarship could not comprehend the 7,000 year plus time delay embedded in the verse. They attempted to explain the verse away by saying that Adam died spiritually, or that Adam introduced death to the earth, etc..

Do not be too sensitive. I find that I too, can get lost in my knowledge base, and, miss the meaning of the verse under consideration.

Shalom

 

[Stan B]

Okay so my question,don't take this the wrong way,as I know my Father knows all,and I also know my ways are not like His

So you mean to tell me ,starting with satan,God said I'm going to create him knowing that he will sin

If I may without offending you which is not my intention,where do you think your wife is now?

Not as old but Im getting there

Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

I have read a number of books on NDE (near-death experiences) which I have enjoyed. By far, the best I have found is "Imagine Heaven" by Pastor John Burke. This book has been on the NY Times bestseller list, selling over 500,000 copies. He has also provided a series of six videos on his website, related to the research and interviews presented in his book. The videos have been a big help to me, diverting my attention from my new reality for a while. I hope you get a chance to watch them. I enjoyed the series so much, that I have now watched them 8 times!

Imagine Heaven - Rewards That Last

 

[OzSpen]

Within a theological environment, people of learning have held back understanding.

Jay,

This is plainly false.

There would never be any English Bible translations if it weren't for scholars (people of learning) who understood Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Your statement about these people holding back understanding is a joke.

Are you saying people like you who are not people of learning are better suited to promote understanding and translating the Scriptures?

God gave teachers to the church (see 1 Cor 12:28-29; Eph 4:11-14). 'People of learning' are among them. What kinds of evangelical study, teaching and learning are needed to produce these 4 volumes of Systematic Theology by Dr Norman Geisler?

I have these volumes and they are among the most helpful on biblical teaching on my shelves. Norm G went home to be with the Lord on 1 August at the age of 86.

• Take a read of A T Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament.
  
• D A Carson, The Gospel According to John. You can borrow this through the Library of Australia.
• Gleason Archer, The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (can be downloaded free online)

I encourage you not to be disparaging of Christian scholarship.

oz

 

[n2thelight]

Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

I have read a number of books on NDE (near-death experiences) which I have enjoyed. By far, the best I have found is "Imagine Heaven" by Pastor John Burke. This book has been on the NY Times bestseller list, selling over 500,000 copies. He has also provided a series of six videos on his website, related to the research and interviews presented in his book. The videos have been a big help to me, diverting my attention from my new reality for a while. I hope you get a chance to watch them. I enjoyed the series so much, that I have now watched them 8 times!

Imagine Heaven - Rewards That Last

Thank you ,and I will watch.

What do you think she is doing?Do you thinks she's waiting to come back and get that flesh that has died?

Do you not think she has her real body now,the spiritual one ,or do you think the spirit is nothing without the flesh.And again if this a sensitive subject for you(wife)I'll stop

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay,

This is plainly false.

There would never be any English Bible translations if it weren't for scholars (people of learning) who understood Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. Your statement about these people holding back understanding is a joke.

Are you saying people like you who are not people of learning are better suited to promote understanding and translating the Scriptures?

God gave teachers to the church (see 1 Cor 12:28-29; Eph 4:11-14). 'People of learning' are among them. What kinds of evangelical study, teaching and learning are needed to produce these 4 volumes of Systematic Theology by Dr Norman Geisler?

I have these volumes and they are among the most helpful on biblical teaching on my shelves. Norm G went home to be with the Lord on 1 August at the age of 86.

• Take a read of A T Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament.
  
• D A Carson, The Gospel According to John. You can borrow this through the Library of Australia.
• Gleason Archer, The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (can be downloaded free online)

I encourage you not to be disparaging of Christian scholarship.

oz

Oh Oz, I must not be expressing my thoughts to well for you to understand what I have posted.

I too have purchased reference books to help me understand the Bible better and they have provided useful information for me to digest, however, as I have come to understand the story line of the bible better, I have also come to realise that they have also provided red herrings in these book through the well intentioned writings of the authors.

After a quick scan of The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties on the topic of Gen_2:17, he makes no reference to the fact that God had told Adam that he would become a candidate for the second death at the end of the Age of the Ages if he ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. He provided the usual arguments, in an attempt, to explain what had happened, after Adam had eaten of the fruit.

Did Adam eventually repent of his sin? Did God forgive Adam for his sin? The bible is silent on both accounts. However, in reading the story of the births of Eve's sons it appears that there was still an active interaction with God in their lives.

A few years ago, I purchased a scholarly book with the title of Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy and it now just sits in my bookcase. I found that the author did not understand the three prophecies spoken by God in Gen_15:13-16 and could not resolve the fact that the Gen_15:16 prophecy was not associated with the Gen_15:13-14 prophecy concerning the time of Abraham's descendants living in Egypt for 430 years before God intervenes and brings them out of Egypt in the exodus. Rather, Gen_15:16 was a distant future prophecy and occurred 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac in 1948 in Abraham’s descendant’s own strength and without the help of God in occupying the Land of Canaan once more. The explanation in this book is that the Gen_15:16 prophecy is also part of the Gen_15:13-14 prophecy and so people have come to believe that there were only four descendant generations born in Egypt during the 430 years that they spent there. However, in the chronology in I chro_7:20-27 we read that Ephraim had ten descendant generation born in Egypt during their 430 years of living in Egypt. The last recorded descendant generation of Ephraim’s being born in Egypt, being Joshua.

Since I have put the scholarly book away, I have learned much more than I was able to before that time. Have I created red herrings for myself? Yes, I have. Have I had to go back and unlearn certain things and change my understandings? Yes, I have.

What I have learned from my experience is that the earliest mistake we have in our biblical understanding of the, i.e. like in Gen_2:17 will colour our understanding in what we read in later portions of the Bible. The classical translation error in Gen_12:1 where “hā·’ā·reṣ” has traditionally been translated as “land,” instead of as “earth,” has taken our understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant down the wrong pathway and has lead to many other errors in the translation of the OT and prophecy concerning Israel.

Yes, scholars have help us all in our understanding, but they have also misled us into wrong thinking as well.

Shalom

 

[farouk]

I would have to read your PHD dissertation before I made that judgement about you.

I worked with a "Doctor" within the Engineering field and he was a first principles person and useless from a practical point of view.

He changed my spec on 25 MPa high pressure piping to save a few cents simple by going from 16 gauge to 18 gauge on 1/2" tubing without inform me of his change. Within weeks of putting in a new compressor to his new spec, the 18 gauge tubing failed within a confined space and we had the expense then of replacing all of the 18 gauge tubing that had been installed on his instruction. I had already had approved the 16 gauge tubing by the Government authority. His design was based on him using too low a pressure and not taking into account cyclic fatigue of the tubing by keeping the design stress levels below 100 MPa, which I had done. I had to put out a directive that only 1/2" 16 gauge tubing could be used and under no circumstances could 18 gauge tubing be used in the future.

Within a theological environment, people of learning have held back understanding. For example, Gen_12:1 speaks of Abraham going to an earth that God would show him, but the "scholarly" tradition steadfastly insists that Abraham was to go to a land that God would show him.

God was wanting to lead Abraham and his descendants to a righteous place but the translation of this one verse has an impact on how we read the rest of the prophecies in the OT.

The same is true for Gen_2:17 in that the second death mentioned in this verse has become hidden in the twiddle written about what is implied in the verse. Because of the distant future in which this verse will be implemented, previous scholarship could not comprehend the 7,000 year plus time delay embedded in the verse. They attempted to explain the verse away by saying that Adam died spiritually, or that Adam introduced death to the earth, etc..

Do not be too sensitive. I find that I too, can get lost in my knowledge base, and, miss the meaning of the verse under consideration.

Shalom

You mean, like: Can't see the wood for the trees? / Can't see the Bible verses for the PhDs...?

 

[Stan B]

Thank you ,and I will watch.

What do you think she is doing? Do you think she's waiting to come back and get that flesh that has died?

Do you not think she has her real body now, the spiritual one, or do you think the spirit is nothing without the flesh. And again if this a sensitive subject for you(wife)I'll stop

n2thelight I am certainly not in any way sensitive to this subject. This is part of life, and 30% of my friends on facebook are widowed, and we talk about this kind of stuff a lot.

An old friend just joined that widowed segment of the group a few days ago, and that is a new challenge for me. Although she and her pastor husband have been pillars of the community for the past 50 years, and loved by everyone, but I suspect she doesn't have many close and intimate friends, but God has been putting her in my path for the past five months. Her husband's funeral was on Saturday. On Sunday at noon, I was somehow impressed to drop everything I was doing and go to her husband's gravesite, and that she would also be there. When I arrived, she was there with four of her grandchildren, planting a beautiful flower garden in the loose soil over the grave. I didn't want to intrude upon precious family time, but I did say Hi! just to let her know that I was there, and I cared. We have chatted about a lot of stuff over the past few months. So . . just another mission God has given to me.

n2thelight >> "What do you think she is doing?

From watching NDE (near-death experience) accounts, I believe she is with family and friends, and getting to know family she had never met. I believe God's eternal plan for us is a family plan, focused upon keeping His family together as an insperable eternal unity. The importance of His plan is declared by the Apostle Paul, who supports the eternal unity between husband and wife, and He is not going to tear apart the unity He created. Belief infuses the entire unified being. From His perspective, God is more than willing to suspend His foundational rules in favour of maintaining the unity He created between husband and wife, as part of His eternal plan. So even if one spouse is a non-believer, to rescue that unity God says: "The unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy." 1 Corinthians 7:14

The belief of one spouse, sanctifies (makes holy) not only the unbelieving spouse, but also extends to the children of such union.

The concept of vicarious atonement goes all the way back to Job the oldest book of the Bible. On behalf of his sons and daughters, Job would "consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, “Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did continually." Job 1 The righteousness of Job extended vicariously to his entire family.

n2thelight >> Do you think she's waiting to come back and get that flesh that has died?

I do not understand the purpose for the bodily resurrection at the Second Coming. The dead in Christ will arise first, and then those who are alive . . . I do not understand the purpose of the resurrection of the corruptible body, which as Scripture declares will be transformed into an incorruptible body.

Of those who have visited Heaven they have described the temporary body they were inhabiting as being sort of a translucent spiritual being. But I don't believe the eternal body will be like that. NDEers describe their body as having no genitalia, but procreation is going to continue in Heaven.
"Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this." Isaiah 9:7

 

[OzSpen]

After a quick scan of The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties on the topic of Gen_2:17, he makes no reference to the fact that God had told Adam that he would become a candidate for the second death at the end of the Age of the Ages if he ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. He provided the usual arguments, in an attempt, to explain what had happened, after Adam had eaten of the fruit.

Jay,

Has it occurred to you that it could be your imposition on Gen 2:17 that makes it contrary to the exegesis of renowned evangelical OT scholar, Gleason Archer?

By the way, think about the times on this forum when you've made pejorative comments about biblical scholars.

Oz

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay,

Has it occurred to you that it could be your imposition on Gen 2:17 that makes it contrary to the exegesis of renowned evangelical OT scholar, Gleason Archer?

By the way, think about the times on this forum when you've made pejorative comments about biblical scholars.

Oz

Oz

You might be right that we all impose our position and understanding on many verses in the scriptures. But that does not necessitate that renowned evangelical scholars, like Gleason Archer, get it right either. It may just be that people have accepted their writing on scripture is "right" without questioning their words and simply repeated what they had read others had said.

Good communication is achieved when the original content and context of the original message package is communicated over time to the recipient such that the recipient comes to the same understanding of the content and context of the original message package and its originator intended message.

Where I am living at present, monetary corruption is what drives what happens in this country. However in western countries the corruption I see is intellectual and that governs what we know and understand.

Shalom

 

[OzSpen]

Oz

You might be right that we all impose our position and understanding on many verses in the scriptures. But that does not necessitate that renowned evangelical scholars, like Gleason Archer, get it right either. It may just be that people have accepted their writing on scripture is "right" without questioning their words and simply repeated what they had read others had said.

Jay,

That's arguing from silence and is a logical fallacy. It's erroneous reasoning.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

n2thelight >> You and I are traveling a much different path. My beloved wife went home 4 years ago, and I no longer have the stamina to even attend a church service. And I have wondered, what purpose has been served by my intensive study of Scripture over the past for 65 years. It now all seems to have been such a useless waste of time. I still have the physical ability to operate a keyboard, but some of the forums I have encountered on the internet have been somewhat less than fulfilling. This forum seems to be somewhat better than most, but calls for the moderators to suppress free speech has not led to respect such activists. That is an ethic that comes from their gawd allah, whom some participants desire to embrace. :-(

Stan,

I feel for your loneliness although I'm not as old. I also live alone and can still drive. However, if I couldn't I have a number of people to call on to take me to church.

Could another option be to hold a Bible study in your house with another leading the group? I lead such a group in another's house.

Oz

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay,

That's arguing from silence and is a logical fallacy. It's erroneous reasoning.

Oz

Oz

Simply put, some of the concepts of God cannot be explained easily and I have had to leave the concept on many biblical topics up in the air until God brings revelation to me. If the concept that Gen_2:17 was pointing towards a time at the end of the age of the ages, around 7,000 plus years into the future, for the second death to occur, is difficult to comprehend for you, then leave the thought up in the air until some form of resolution comes at a later time.

Shalom

 

[Davy]

Prof J A Schep disagrees with you. See: Resurrection of the flesh-body.

So do a lot of Jews who adhere to the Old Testament Scripture instead of the New Testament Scripture.

The dead-in-the-ground theory is from Judaism. The "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught is not a new flesh body. It is a "spiritual body", a body of spirit, not flesh.

John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
KJV


This Scripture makes it very plain that our spiritual body is not a resurrected flesh body, especially the verse in red...

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Those on old Jewish traditions that believe dead decayed flesh in the casket will rise mostly steer clear of what Apostle Paul taught there, especially that 50th verse.