What is first? The war in heaven or the marriage supper of the lamb.

[Curtis]

What comes to mind is that we will already be IN eternity during the marriage supper. "Time" does not exist in eternity. Therefore, cannot all things happen simultaneously?
His Omnipresence is everywhere at all times as He lives outside of time...eternity and when we are with Him we too will be outside of time. JMHO

Matthew 25:13 and Revelation 19 confirms the wedding supper is concurrent with His return - both occur together- in fact the marriage supper is what the rapture is for.

Maranatha

 

[Jay Ross]

@Curtis, Please read and understand the Greek text for yourself, and you may find a very different context to the one that our English translation present.

Christ did not come to change any part of the existing Covenants, but He did modify the process by which all men could gain their salvation when He died on the cross.

Perhaps, more reflection by both of us is still required before full understanding will be gain on our respective parts.

Shalom

 

[Truth7t7]

@Curtis, Please read and understand the Greek text for yourself, and you may find a very different context to the one that our English translation present.

Christ did not come to change any part of the existing Covenants, but He did modify the process by which all men could gain their salvation when He died on the cross.

Perhaps, more reflection by both of us is still required before full understanding will be gain on our respective parts.

Shalom

No need to read the Greek, I use the KJV, and the 60 scholars that performed the work were outstanding Christian scholars

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 25:13 and Revelation 19 confirms the wedding supper is concurrent with His return - both occur together- in fact the marriage supper is what the rapture is for.

Maranatha

The marriage super takes place in the Eternal kingdom, after this earth has been dissolved by fire, and replaced with the new creation in the new heaven and earth

 

[teamventure]

my advice , dont buy it . That king was not satan . This fellow has this all backwards .
Though he is right in part about pre tribulation .

You said it. The more I looked at his post the more things I saw that were backwards.

 

[teamventure]

What comes to mind is that we will already be IN eternity during the marriage supper. "Time" does not exist in eternity. Therefore, cannot all things happen simultaneously?
His Omnipresence is everywhere at all times as He lives outside of time...eternity and when we are with Him we too will be outside of time. JMHO

Yes of course! A day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day.

 

[Jay Ross]

No need to read the Greek, I use the KJV, and the 60 scholars that performed the work were outstanding Christian scholars

Really, and you believed them, or was that someone else's claim to justify his fallible position on scripture?

 

[Jay Ross]

my advice , dont buy it . That king was not satan . This fellow has this all backwards .
Though he is right in part about pre tribulation .

Oh well, back up your claim with scripture. The question I have for you is if the Man who goes away is Christ, why does he need for those who do not want him to be king over them, have them brought before him to be killed?

That just does not sound like the Jesus I know.

 

[Jay Ross]

You said it. The more I looked at his post the more things I saw that were backwards.

Oh, please back up your claims that i have presented the end time prophecies in the wrong order such that they were backwards. Without you identifying where you believe my error is, there is no opportunity for us to have a valid discussion on what your understanding of my post is.

Sadly those who hold to a pre-trib theory have the order of how thing happen/unfold backwards. The usual argument is that the Book of Revelation has to be read and understood in logical chronological order as presented literally. Unfortunately, the Book of Revelation does not present the End Time prophecies in a literal, logical chronological order. John moves forwards and backwards in time and subsequently records what he saw in that order. We have to be able to discern the direction in time that John was travelling from what he has recorded in this book. That is not that difficult to do.

Good luck with that.

 

[Truth7t7]

Really, and you believed them, or was that someone else's claim to justify his fallible position on scripture?

1611 King James Committee, Christian Scholars Beyond Comparison

• PATRON
  • King James I
• TRANSLATION OVERSEER
  • Richard Bancroft
• COMMITTEE OF TWO
• COMMITTEE OF REVISERS
• FIRST WESTMINSTER COMPANY
• FIRST CAMBRIDGE COMPANY
• FIRST OXFORD COMPANY
• SECOND CAMBRIDGE COMPANY
• SECOND OXFORD COMPANY
• SECOND WESTMINSTER COMPANY
• TRANSLATOR
  • Thomas Sparke
• PRINTER
  • Robert Barker
• CONTRIBUTORS
  • (Illustrators, Geneologies, Maps, Etc.)
  • John Speed (Genealogies, Map)
  • Cornelis Boel (Artist/Engraver)
  • John More (Map)
  • Renold Elstrack (Engraver)
  • Hugh Broughton (Genealogies)

INTRODUCTION
At least sixty men were directly involved in the translation of the King James Bible (hereinafter KJB). Most were Translators, while a few were project overseers, revisers and editors. Some served in several roles. Who were these men? What were their backgrounds? What did they share? In what ways were they different? They were a diverse group. While some were born in large cities and towns, most were from small villages scattered throughout England. Several were the children of university graduates, most were not. They were sons of mariners, farmers, school teachers, cordwainers (leather merchants), fletchers (makers of bows and arrows), ministers, brewers, tailors, and aristocrats. All were members of the Church of England, but their religious views ran the gamut. Some were ardent Puritans, others staunch defenders of the religious establishment. Some believed in pre-destination and limited salvation as taught by John Calvin, while others believed in self-determination and universal access to heaven as taught by Jacobus Arminius.

All of the Translators were university graduates. Oxford and Cambridge claimed nearly equal numbers of Translators as alumni. All of the Translators except one were ordained Church of England priests. While several of the Translators had traveled to the Continent, only one had ventured to the New World. Most of the Translators were married men (38 of 60) with families. Most of the Translators spent a significant portion of their career associated with their colleges and universities as fellows, involved in teaching and administration. As fellows, they were not allowed to marry. As a result many delayed marriage until they had established themselves in church office away from the university. When the translation commenced in 1604-1605, the majority of the Translators, 22, were in their forties, 16 men were in their thirties, 15 in their fifties, 3 in their sixties and 3 in their twenties.

One Translator died in his thirties, six in their forties, nineteen in their fifties, sixteen in their sixties, four in their seventies, three in their eighties and one, over one hundred. Nine of the Translators died before the KJB was published in the 1611.

Most of the Translators were in comfortable economic circumstances during and after their time involved in the translation. The association and friendships they developed during the translation project generally advanced their careers. Some of the Translators went on to high church and academic office. Five went on to serve as bishops and two as archbishops.

They all had a familiarity with the ancient languages of Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and often many more. They came on the historical scene at a time when the knowledge of early biblical texts and language was exploding. Such a flowering of interest and expertise was unique. Bible historian, Gordon Campbell, has observed:

The population from which scholars can now be drawn is much larger than in the seventeenth century, but it would be difficult now to bring together a group of more than fifty scholars with the range of languages and knowledge of other disciplines that characterized the KJB Translators. (Bible – The Story of the King James Version 1611-2011 Oxford, Gordon Campbell, Oxford University Press 2010.)

For such a diverse group, they worked together in harmony during a generally contentious time. They had disagreements, to be sure, but they labored on, year after year. There were no "tell all books" published after the fact. Miles Smith remarked in his preface to the KJB, the Translators "were greater in other men's eyes than in their own, and sought truth rather than their own praise". They approached the task of translation with humility, understanding they were standing on the shoulders of giants like William Tyndale. Believers all, the Translators, according to Smith "craved the assistance of God's Spirit by prayer" as they proceeded in their work.

Though almost all were well known within the religious and academic community of the time, their involvement in the translation went largely unnoticed by the public. Their individual and group effort was not the subject of historical inquiry until many years after the fact. As a result, little information about the process of translation survived. The lives of the Translators and sometimes their very identity became obscured with time. In certain instances, the place of their birth and burial is unknown, and their family circumstance in doubt. Until this anniversary year, few could name even one Translator, let alone sixty. The following brief biographies are written in the hope to shed further light on these men who contributed so much.

 

[Curtis]

@Curtis, Please read and understand the Greek text for yourself, and you may find a very different context to the one that our English translation present.

Christ did not come to change any part of the existing Covenants, but He did modify the process by which all men could gain their salvation when He died on the cross.

Perhaps, more reflection by both of us is still required before full understanding will be gain on our respective parts.

Shalom

Absolutely wrong.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13 In speaking of a "new" covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Baruch HaShem Adonai

 

[Rita]

1611 King James Committee, Christian Scholars Beyond Comparison

• PATRON
  • King James I
• TRANSLATION OVERSEER
  • Richard Bancroft
• COMMITTEE OF TWO
• COMMITTEE OF REVISERS
• FIRST WESTMINSTER COMPANY
• FIRST CAMBRIDGE COMPANY
• FIRST OXFORD COMPANY
• SECOND CAMBRIDGE COMPANY
• SECOND OXFORD COMPANY
• SECOND WESTMINSTER COMPANY
• TRANSLATOR
  • Thomas Sparke
• PRINTER
  • Robert Barker
• CONTRIBUTORS
  • (Illustrators, Geneologies, Maps, Etc.)
  • John Speed (Genealogies, Map)
  • Cornelis Boel (Artist/Engraver)
  • John More (Map)
  • Renold Elstrack (Engraver)
  • Hugh Broughton (Genealogies)

INTRODUCTION
At least sixty men were directly involved in the translation of the King James Bible (hereinafter KJB). Most were Translators, while a few were project overseers, revisers and editors. Some served in several roles. Who were these men? What were their backgrounds? What did they share? In what ways were they different? They were a diverse group. While some were born in large cities and towns, most were from small villages scattered throughout England. Several were the children of university graduates, most were not. They were sons of mariners, farmers, school teachers, cordwainers (leather merchants), fletchers (makers of bows and arrows), ministers, brewers, tailors, and aristocrats. All were members of the Church of England, but their religious views ran the gamut. Some were ardent Puritans, others staunch defenders of the religious establishment. Some believed in pre-destination and limited salvation as taught by John Calvin, while others believed in self-determination and universal access to heaven as taught by Jacobus Arminius.

All of the Translators were university graduates. Oxford and Cambridge claimed nearly equal numbers of Translators as alumni. All of the Translators except one were ordained Church of England priests. While several of the Translators had traveled to the Continent, only one had ventured to the New World. Most of the Translators were married men (38 of 60) with families. Most of the Translators spent a significant portion of their career associated with their colleges and universities as fellows, involved in teaching and administration. As fellows, they were not allowed to marry. As a result many delayed marriage until they had established themselves in church office away from the university. When the translation commenced in 1604-1605, the majority of the Translators, 22, were in their forties, 16 men were in their thirties, 15 in their fifties, 3 in their sixties and 3 in their twenties.

One Translator died in his thirties, six in their forties, nineteen in their fifties, sixteen in their sixties, four in their seventies, three in their eighties and one, over one hundred. Nine of the Translators died before the KJB was published in the 1611.

Most of the Translators were in comfortable economic circumstances during and after their time involved in the translation. The association and friendships they developed during the translation project generally advanced their careers. Some of the Translators went on to high church and academic office. Five went on to serve as bishops and two as archbishops.

They all had a familiarity with the ancient languages of Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and often many more. They came on the historical scene at a time when the knowledge of early biblical texts and language was exploding. Such a flowering of interest and expertise was unique. Bible historian, Gordon Campbell, has observed:

The population from which scholars can now be drawn is much larger than in the seventeenth century, but it would be difficult now to bring together a group of more than fifty scholars with the range of languages and knowledge of other disciplines that characterized the KJB Translators. (Bible – The Story of the King James Version 1611-2011 Oxford, Gordon Campbell, Oxford University Press 2010.)

For such a diverse group, they worked together in harmony during a generally contentious time. They had disagreements, to be sure, but they labored on, year after year. There were no "tell all books" published after the fact. Miles Smith remarked in his preface to the KJB, the Translators "were greater in other men's eyes than in their own, and sought truth rather than their own praise". They approached the task of translation with humility, understanding they were standing on the shoulders of giants like William Tyndale. Believers all, the Translators, according to Smith "craved the assistance of God's Spirit by prayer" as they proceeded in their work.

Though almost all were well known within the religious and academic community of the time, their involvement in the translation went largely unnoticed by the public. Their individual and group effort was not the subject of historical inquiry until many years after the fact. As a result, little information about the process of translation survived. The lives of the Translators and sometimes their very identity became obscured with time. In certain instances, the place of their birth and burial is unknown, and their family circumstance in doubt. Until this anniversary year, few could name even one Translator, let alone sixty. The following brief biographies are written in the hope to shed further light on these men who contributed so much.

I believe the concern should lay with who was the Patron, all of the scholars were good but they were still under the Instruction of the King. I was reading a history of the King James Bible and often the king didn’t like what a word originally meant , so he got the scholars to use a different word to imply a slightly different meaning. Checking the original Greek would no doubt be helpful… to confirm and find those words the King didn’t like !

 

[Truth7t7]

I believe the concern should lay with who was the Patron, all of the scholars were good but they were still under the Instruction of the King. I was reading a history of the King James Bible and often the king didn’t like what a word originally meant , so he got the scholars to use a different word to imply a slightly different meaning. Checking the original Greek would no doubt be helpful… to confirm and find those words the King didn’t like !

I disagree with your claims concerning the King and Scholars, they had uncontrolled authority to follow God's leading not that of King James

Quote Introduction:

They approached the task of translation with humility, understanding they were standing on the shoulders of giants like William Tyndale. Believers all, the Translators, according to Smith "craved the assistance of God's Spirit by prayer" as they proceeded in their work.

 

[Rita]

I disagree with your claims concerning the King and Scholars, they had uncontrolled authority to follow God's leading not that of King James

Quote Introduction:

They approached the task of translation with humility, understanding they were standing on the shoulders of giants like William Tyndale. Believers all, the Translators, according to Smith "craved the assistance of God's Spirit by prayer" as they proceeded in their work.

That’s fine to disagree , but it doesn’t disprove the claim. If you honestly want to believe that a King of England just gave total freedom to the people working on his behalf , that’s fine. The only way to prove it would be to check the Greek…….
It’s fine to agree to disagree x

 

[Truth7t7]

That’s fine to disagree , but it doesn’t disprove the claim. If you honestly want to believe that a King of England just gave total freedom to the people working on his behalf , that’s fine. The only way to prove it would be to check the Greek…….
It’s fine to agree to disagree x

Rita there are many Greek text available today

The text that backs modern versions such as the NIV, NASB, ESV, RSV, Etc, is the (Novum Testamentum Graece)

This Greek text was created by Adulterers (Kurt Aland) and the college girl Kurt ran off with after divorcing his wife Ingeborg, (Barbara Nee Ehlers) who Kurt married

Dont forget homosexual union supporter and roman catholic Jesuit cardinal (Carlo Maria Martini)

Yes the new versions are backed by this Greek text, created by Adulterers and the homosexual union supporter

 

[Rita]

Rita there are many Greek text available today

The text that backs modern versions such as the NIV, NASB, ESV, RSV, Etc, is the (Novum Testamentum Graece)

This Greek text was created by Adulterers (Kurt Aland) and the college girl Kurt ran off with after divorcing his wife Ingeborg, (Barbara Nee Ehlers) who Kurt married

Dont forget homosexual union supporter and roman catholic Jesuit cardinal (Carlo Maria Martini)

Yes the new versions are backed by this Greek text, created by Adulterers and the homosexual union supporter

I am not getting into that debate, my point was that I believe it’s relevant to go back to the original Greek words in study. I have always had the NIV , it’s never stopped the Holy Spirit from inspiring me ………
I often use different bibles in study………including the king james use bible gate and see the verses in different versions.

 

[Curtis]

The marriage super takes place in the Eternal kingdom, after this earth has been dissolved by fire, and replaced with the new creation in the new heaven and earth

That’s not what scripture says.

 

[Truth7t7]

That’s not what scripture says.

Scripture clearly teaches the marriage of Christ to the Church takes place "After" the second coming, the wise virgins represent the Church, the unwise will be left as the door will be shut

Verse 10 represents the second coming

Matthew 25:1-13KJV
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[Nancy]

I believe the concern should lay with who was the Patron, all of the scholars were good but they were still under the Instruction of the King. I was reading a history of the King James Bible and often the king didn’t like what a word originally meant , so he got the scholars to use a different word to imply a slightly different meaning. Checking the original Greek would no doubt be helpful… to confirm and find those words the King didn’t like !

Hi Rita,
There was a few articles I read about this King James, they were not flattering. From what these things said, he was a puffed up prideful man. Have not read anything "good" about him. All that to say that I DO use the KJV, but only because it is easier to remember the verses.
xx

 

[teamventure]

Oh, please back up your claims that i have presented the end time prophecies in the wrong order such that they were backwards. Without you identifying where you believe my error is, there is no opportunity for us to have a valid discussion on what your understanding of my post is.

Sadly those who hold to a pre-trib theory have the order of how thing happen/unfold backwards. The usual argument is that the Book of Revelation has to be read and understood in logical chronological order as presented literally. Unfortunately, the Book of Revelation does not present the End Time prophecies in a literal, logical chronological order. John moves forwards and backwards in time and subsequently records what he saw in that order. We have to be able to discern the direction in time that John was travelling from what he has recorded in this book. That is not that difficult to do.

Good luck with that.

Well let me explain myself, I described your post as backwards not in reference to chronological order of events but the events themselves seemed backwards. But of course you will ask me to explain every detail which I would consider a waste of time arguing nonsense, I have better things to do with my time.
Sorry I offended you.