What is first? The war in heaven or the marriage supper of the lamb.

[teamventure]

I was reading from Rev 12 about Satan being thrown down from heaven and it got me wondering, from a pre-trib perspective, which would happen first or would both events happen simoltansly?
So how would the marriage supper and the war in heaven happen in spite of eachother and which would happen first?
Please no arguments on the timing of the rapture.


Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Revelation 12:7‭-‬9 NIV
Revelation 12:7-9 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now

 

[Davy]

I was reading from Rev 12 about Satan being thrown down from heaven and it got me wondering, from a pre-trib perspective, which would happen first or would both events happen simoltansly?
So how would the marriage supper and the war in heaven happen in spite of eachother and which would happen first?
Please no arguments on the timing of the rapture.


Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Revelation 12:7‭-‬9 NIV
Revelation 12:7-9 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now

All one need do is closely study and 'heed' the Revelation 19 Chapter from the start down to verse 9...

Rev 19:1-9
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, "Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand."
3 And again they said, "Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever."
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God That sat on the throne, saying, "Amen; Alleluia."

What timing do those verses show? when is that "great whore", the Babylon Harlot, judged and God's servants avenged? That is clearly AFTER... Christ's coming. That "great whore" will be in power over the earth all the way up to Christ's coming. All that is past the return of Jesus.

Thus the timing of this is all for AFTER... Christ's future return and gathering of His saints, with the Babylon Harlot destroyed, and even the smoke of her burning rising.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great."
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready."
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, "Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he saith unto me, "These are the true sayings of God."
KJV

All... those above verses are for AFTER Christ's future return after He will have destroyed the Babylon Harlot, and gathered His Church, and began His future "thousand years" reign over all nations and peoples, with His elect.

But at the Revelation 19:11-21 Scripture, the timeline moves back to the actual day of Christ's return to destroy that Babylon Harlot.

 

[Davy]

Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Revelation 12:7‭-‬9 NIV
Revelation 12:7-9 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great | New International Version (NIV) | Download The Bible App Now

The Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture is actually "great tribulation" timing.

When that war in heaven happens between Michael and Satan, and Satan and his angels are kicked out of Heaven down to this earth, that is what will cause the "great tribulation" in the last days just prior to Christ's coming.

Satan himself is who is coming as the Antichrist/false-Messiah to Jerusalem to play Christ. The deceived Jews will accept him as their Messiah, all religions will accept him in place of God, and even deceived Christian brethren will also be told that is our Lord Jesus and will believe on him. But he will be a fake, as Jesus told us to wait on Him to come after that.

 

[Enoch111]

So how would the marriage supper and the war in heaven happen in spite of each other and which would happen first?

This is where you need to understand that there are THREE heavens. The first heaven is the atmospheric heaven, the second is outer space, and the third is God's Heaven in which the New Jerusalem is located.

Satan and his evil angels were cast out of the third heaven and assigned to the first heaven -- the air -- at the time that Lucifer rebelled against God. Thus Satan is called "the prince of the power of the air". So when there is war in "heaven" it means that there is angelic warfare in the atmospheric heaven, and eventually Satan and his angels are cast down to earth just before the reign of the Antichrist (Rev 11).

While this is happening, the preparations for the Marriage of the Lamb in the third heaven are going on. And eventually the Marriage occurs just before the Second Coming of Christ to earth.

 

[teamventure]

Thank you Davy,

I'll read up on chap 19

 

[teamventure]

This is where you need to understand that there are THREE heavens. The first heaven is the atmospheric heaven, the second is outer space, and the third is God's Heaven in which the New Jerusalem is located.

Satan and his evil angels were cast out of the third heaven and assigned to the first heaven -- the air -- at the time that Lucifer rebelled against God. Thus Satan is called "the prince of the power of the air". So when there is war in "heaven" it means that there is angelic warfare in the atmospheric heaven, and eventually Satan and his angels are cast down to earth just before the reign of the Antichrist (Rev 11).

While this is happening, the preparations for the Marriage of the Lamb in the third heaven are going on. And eventually the Marriage occurs just before the Second Coming of Christ to earth.

Thank you Enoch, that puts things into perspective for me.

 

[Jay Ross]

I was reading from Rev 12 about Satan being thrown down from heaven and it got me wondering, from a pre-trib perspective, which would happen first or would both events happen simultaneously?
So how would the marriage supper and the war in heaven happen in spite of each other and which would happen first?
Please no arguments on the timing of the rapture.

hello,

it is impossible to consider the End Time Prophecies from a Pre-trib perspective as holding this bias for our understanding of the End Times means that we are distorting the End Time Prophecies to fit the Pre-trib theory as what is to happen in our immediate future. If we ignore the bias of the Pre-trib theory as to what is to happen in our future, the pieces all fall into place.

In Isaiah 24:21-22 we are told that the heavenly hosts, i.e. Satan and his rebellious angels will be judged in heaven at the same time that the kings of the earth are judged on the earth, and that both the judged heavenly hosts and the judged kings of the earth will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days in a "pit" for many days to await the time of their punishment.

In Luke 19:11-27 Jesus tells the story about Satan going away into a cavernous pit for a long time, and that during the time that he is away he organises his servants to oppress the peoples of the earth, by giving his servants access to his assets, i.e. money, while he is away. As soon as Satan goes away, some of his servants, the Israelites, send a delegation after Satan stating that they no longer want Satan to rule over them. It is a sign that Israel is will to repent.

When Satan returns he seeks an account from his servants as to how they had traded with his money, and, Jesus told those around Him, while telling this story, that Satan then has those who no longer wanted him to be king over them to be brought before him to be killed.

Now, the Kings of the earth who had been judged at the same time as the heavenly hosts, where the kings of the nations that had been trampling God's Sanctuary and His earthly hosts, i.e. all of the nation of Israel for the prophesied time period of 2,300 years which will end in around 25 years time. Paul in Romans 11:25-26 informs us that when the fullness, with respect to time, of the Gentiles trampling God's Sanctuary and his earthly hosts has run its full course, that after the end of the 2,300 years that all of Israel will be Saved.

Now Revelation 16:12-16 tells us that the nations will be gathered together at Armageddon after the earth has seen the signs and wonders of the three foul frog like spirits all around the world which happened in 2001.

In Luke 14:25-35, Jesus tells us that unless man has the means to build a tower, which is a metaphor for a temple, that he will look foolish when he is not able to complete that task and all of the people around him will ridicule him. This act by Israel will cause all the nations of the earth to gather at Armageddon, and in the Luke 14 account, Jesus then tells of the battle that develops in the valley of decision which can be seen from Jerusalem, where Jesus comes to judge the nations of the earth. In taking counsel among themselves Israel will decide that it is best that they seek the terms of peace from the king that is defeating the kings of the earth at Armageddon. My understanding is that this event is at the end of the two ages that the visitation of the fathers iniquities ends at the end of this present age.

This passage in Luke then concludes with Jesus telling his audience, Israel, that they cannot be His disciples if they have lost their saltiness and that the salt is then worthless.

Jesus in the Mt Olivette account account in Matthew 24:32, informs his disciples that the end of the second age of the visitation of the fathers iniquities on their children and the children's children will end around 96 years after the world see the fig tree begin to bud leaves once more.

In Matthew 25, Jesus then sets out what will happen near the start of the last age, the age of harvesting souls, that Christ will return briefly for His Bride, Israel, that Satan's good and faithful servants will oppress the peoples of the earth in an attempt to stop God's drawing of the peoples of the earth to Himself, and finishes with the story of the Judgement that is to come of those who call Jesus Lord, Lord when He will separate those who call Him Lord, by the condition or attitude of their hearts as to whether they have a Hebraic or Grecian understand with respect to their relations with God.

In Ezekiel, God speaks of gathering the Israelites to Himself and planting then in the fertile field that Christ tends and that there He will teach them about/on the mountain, i.e. a metaphor for religion, of Israel where they dwell scattered throughout the whole earth. Some of the nation of Israel will be found in Jerusalem, i.e. the house of Judah, but the majority of the nation of Israel will remain scattered among the gentile people all over the earth. It will be at this time that God will sprinkle them with water to make them clean, so that they can perform their duties as His "priests" to teach the Gentile about the things of God.

It is shortly after the beginning of the last age, labelled wrongly by man as the Millennium Age, that Jeremiah 31:31 ff comes into play where God renews with all of Israel the same covenant that He had entered into with Israel, initially at Mt Sanai after they had just come out of Egypt, but which they rejected by having Aaron make for them two idols to worship while Moses was up on the mountain with God.

The renewing of the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy nation and God's possessions among the nations covenant, is also the renewing of the marriage covenant with the Nation of Israel, and allows Christ to fleetingly come to claim His Bride, Israel as His.

I hope that this brief outline helps you to understand the sequence of how Israel once more is redeemed to become the Bride, the apple of God's eye in our near future.

Shalom

PS: - Where the Pre-trib theory fits into the above sequence has not been argued in the above.

 

[teamventure]

Jay Ross, that was quite the read.
This will take a second read and some time to digest.

 

[Curtis]

It is shortly after the beginning of the last age, labelled wrongly by man as the Millennium Age, that Jeremiah 31:31 ff comes into play where God renews with all of Israel the same covenant that He had entered into with Israel, initially at Mt Sanai after they had just come out of Egypt, but which they rejected by having Aaron make for them two idols to worship while Moses was up on the mountain with God.

That covenant took effect at Jesus’ death, per Hebrews.

Shalom

 

[Davy]

This is where you need to understand that there are THREE heavens. The first heaven is the atmospheric heaven, the second is outer space, and the third is God's Heaven in which the New Jerusalem is located.

Satan and his evil angels were cast out of the third heaven and assigned to the first heaven -- the air -- at the time that Lucifer rebelled against God. Thus Satan is called "the prince of the power of the air". So when there is war in "heaven" it means that there is angelic warfare in the atmospheric heaven, and eventually Satan and his angels are cast down to earth just before the reign of the Antichrist (Rev 11).

While this is happening, the preparations for the Marriage of the Lamb in the third heaven are going on. And eventually the Marriage occurs just before the Second Coming of Christ to earth.

That's an old Jewish fable. Not written anywhere in God's Word.

The "third heaven" Apostle Paul was talking about in 2 Corinthians 12 is about the third heaven earth AGE, i.e., the new heavens and a new earth timing. That's the time his spirit was taken to.

(There are 3 earth ages written in 2 Peter 3...
1. the world that then was; 2. the heavens and the earth which are now; 3. the new heavens and a new earth.)

In Genesis 1:1, the KJV word "heaven" is indeed plural in the Hebrew. But it is NOT pointing to 3 divisions in heaven. It is pointing to 2 heavens.

It is only pointing to the sky atmosphere around the earth (called a firmament there), and the other Heaven is about God's Abode, which is NOT in this present material earthly dimension. The universe, stars and planets are included in this earthly dimension we live in, which is why we can see them. We cannot see into the invisible Heavenly dimension where God and the angels live unless He allows it, like in Isaiah 6.

 

[Enoch111]

That's an old Jewish fable. Not written anywhere in God's Word.

That is total nonsense. If Paul refers to God's Heaven at the "third heaven", it follows that there are two other heavens. So you are mocking Scripture by calling it an old Jewish fable.

The "third heaven" Apostle Paul was talking about in 2 Corinthians 12 is about the third heaven earth AGE, i.e., the new heavens and a new earth timing. That's the time his spirit was taken to.

You should read this for yourself and see how utterly nonsensical this sounds. So it looks like you are the one who is simply manufacturing fantasies instead of following Scripture.

To get back to the FACT that the first heaven is the atmospheric heaven, we simply need to remember two things: (1) our atmosphere is air and (2) Satan is called "the prince of the power of the air". What this means is that powerful hierarchies of evil angels (thrones, dominions, principalities, powers. etc) exist in our atmosphere, and Satan is the ruler, or king, or prince over all these evil spirits. A time is coming in the near future when Michael and his holy angels will cast Satan and his evil angels down to earth. They will not be able to return to "the air" but they will wreak havoc on earth. That is when Satan's wrath against the saints will be displayed.

At the same time, demons (who inhabit the earth) have taken control of all the world's governments. Therefore every country is now under totalitarianism brought on by COVID tyranny. This is all a preparation for the reign of the Antichrist.

 

[Davy]

That is total nonsense. If Paul refers to God's Heaven at the "third heaven", it follows that there are two other heavens. So you are mocking Scripture by calling it an old Jewish fable.

Sorry, that's still just an assumption. There's Biblical proof that Apostle Paul knew about the destruction of the first world earth age. He revealed it in Romans 8. That is also likely why Apostle Peter mentioned Paul's teaching in the 2 Peter 3 chapter where Peter was covering the three world earth ages, saying in Paul's Epistles there are some things hard to understand. God's Word only ever mentions 2 heavens, the heavenly sky around the earth, and the Heavenly dimension where God dwells.

And to show further how what you've proposed is just a fable, God's Word gives proof that the invisible Heavenly dimension where God dwells is NOT in the same dimension as this earthly dimension where the earth's sky is.

John 4 tells us that God is a Spirit. Hebrews 11 tells us that the things seen of this world were not made of things seen. That means this earthly dimension is a completely... separate dimension of existence from God's Heavenly Abode which is made up of Spirit.

The orthodox Jews still have a difficult time distinguishing the two different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word. Those like Apostle Paul didn't have that problem, for Paul well understood it...

1 Cor 15:48-50
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

 

[amigo de christo]

Jay Ross, that was quite the read.
This will take a second read and some time to digest.

my advice , dont buy it . That king was not satan . This fellow has this all backwards .
Though he is right in part about pre tribulation .

 

[Enoch111]

it is impossible to consider the End Time Prophecies from a Pre-trib perspective as holding this bias for our understanding of the End Times means that we are distorting the End Time Prophecies to fit the Pre-trib theory as what is to happen in our immediate future.

More total nonsense on this thread. The doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was first pronounced by Christ Himself in John 14:1-3. Take some time to read, meditate on, and digest that doctrine along with all the passages which speak of the Rapture (not forgetting the ones pertaining to Enoch, the seventh from Adam).

 

[Jay Ross]

That covenant took effect at Jesus’ death, per Hebrews.

Shalom

That is a bold statement. I agree that Christ refurbished the process by which our sins are washed clean when He died on the cross, but He did not change the purpose of the Salvation Covenant in any way which has been in existence from the beginning of mankind.

The passage in Hebrews 8 is dealing with the renewal of the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession among the Gentiles Covenant which is still a near future event.

Now if you want to back up your bold statement with scripture, then I will be all ears and will consider your rebuttal, but at this point in time you have provided nothing that would require me to change my mind.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

More total nonsense on this thread. The doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was first pronounced by Christ Himself in John 14:1-3. Take some time to read, meditate on, and digest that doctrine along with all the passages which speak of the Rapture (not forgetting the ones pertaining to Enoch, the seventh from Adam).

Enoch111, please show me where in the scriptural reference that you mentioned where the Rapture is actually mentioned. Here is the NKJV rendering of this passage: -

John 14:1-6: - The Way, the Truth, and the Life

14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know."

5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?"

6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."​

NKJV​

Now, did not Jesus also teach that as His disciples, that we would need to take up our own cross, that we would be ridiculed, imprisoned and even killed, and as such that we had to persevere and hold onto our faith in Him until the end of the Age of the Ages? Are we not to be refined by fire so that the dross of this world is taken from us?

It seems to me that your understanding of what Jesus taught is lacking.

Shalom

 

[Davy]

More total nonsense on this thread. The doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was first pronounced by Christ Himself in John 14:1-3. Take some time to read, meditate on, and digest that doctrine along with all the passages which speak of the Rapture (not forgetting the ones pertaining to Enoch, the seventh from Adam).

You're simply being deceived brother, the John 14:1-3 Scripture is not about a rapture in the sky.

The location of The Father's "house" wherein are "many mansions" (abodes in the Greek), is the temple of Ezekiel in Ezekiel 40 through 47. In those Ezekiel Chapters that temple is called God's 'house'.

So when Lord Jesus He will come again to bring His saints where He will be, THAT... spot in the holy land where The Father's "house" will be IS IT! That means... ON EARTH!

And whadda' ya' know, Zechariah 14 reveals to us that Lord Jesus at His coming returns to the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1, bringing ALL the saints with Him. His coming reign is ON this earth, not up in the clouds.

 

[GTW27]

"I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven."

 

[Curtis]

That is a bold statement. I agree that Christ refurbished the process by which our sins are washed clean when He died on the cross, but He did not change the purpose of the Salvation Covenant in any way which has been in existence from the beginning of mankind.

The passage in Hebrews 8 is dealing with the renewal of the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession among the Gentiles Covenant which is still a near future event.

Now if you want to back up your bold statement with scripture, then I will be all ears and will consider your rebuttal, but at this point in time you have provided nothing that would require me to change my mind.

Shalom

Hebrews 8 states Jesus is mediating, not will mediate, the new covenant, and in 8-10 shows that covenant is the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the House of Israel:


Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Hebrews 9 states that the new covenant Jesus mediates is His last will and Testament, that took effect at His death, as all last will and Testaments do:


Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.

Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.

Notice that the called obtain the promised inheritance from the last will and Testament that took effect at His death, verse 9:15

God always has a law, and the new covenant is a legal document that gives the called an inheritance - as in inheriting eternal life.

Hebrews 10 confirms that the once for all time sacrificial offering of Himself established the Jeremiah 31 new covenant where God puts His laws in the hearts and minds of those being sanctified:


Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”

Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.


Currently per Romans 11 only a remnant of the elect nation of Israel believes in Jesus and thus is in their own new covenant God has made with the House of Israel, and have Gods indwelling Holy Spirit within them - which is how Gods laws are written in their hearts, and the rest are blinded until the deliverer comes out of Zion.


Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,


Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;


Gentiles as wild Olive branches are grafted onto the Olive tree of Israel, amid the natural branches, and thus by faith gentiles enter into the new covenant with the House of Israel.


Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

 

[Nancy]

What comes to mind is that we will already be IN eternity during the marriage supper. "Time" does not exist in eternity. Therefore, cannot all things happen simultaneously?
His Omnipresence is everywhere at all times as He lives outside of time...eternity and when we are with Him we too will be outside of time. JMHO