What is Mariology?

[Mungo]

To my knowledge all your questions have been answered.

You have not answered post#484 &#484
Also not answered post #486 which referred to an earlier request you did not answer - post #475, which itself referred to an earlier request you did not answer.
Posts #476 & #477 requested answers to earlier requests you did not answer.

You seem to think I must answer everything but you are exempt.

When you have answered my questions/requests we can come to yours.

 

[Taken]

That's not what I asked is it?

No. Nor was my study’s the the point.
The point was you made a statement excluding Angels from being capable of Sin and Scripture, includes Angels being capable of sinning....2 Pet 2:4 being an express example of Angels sinning.

Have you considered its context?
Have you considered the word angels?
Have you considered the problem of saying its actually angels?
Have you considered the language as symbolic or literal?

Yes.
What does your Deflection have to do with you position That Angels can not Sin?

Have you studied 2 Peter 2:4?

Yes. And in context, of 2 Peter...
Peter, a Sav-ED, Converted Believer IN Christ, Apostle Preacher, Teacher, Servant, was Speaking TO other Sav-ED, Believing, And UN-Sav-ED men, and un-believing men, and Holy Angels With Gods Truth, and Warning About Men WITHOUT Gods Truth, And Fallen Angels WITHOUT Gods Truth...

Point being...IF you believe Angels Can NOT Sin, you therefore IGNORE Scriptural Warnings Of the Power and Capable Cunningness Of Angels TO appear TO men and Trick men With Crafty Words TO Tempt men TO consider Rejecting Gods Word.

A fallen Angel has the Power TO appear to Men...as a talking animal, a talking man and Speak Against Gods Truth.
IF a man Himself has NOT Gods Truth IN him, That man IS vulnerable TO consider Believing The LIE of the fallen Angel...
Same applies to Wicked fallen men who preach and teach Against God and a man Without Gods Truth IN That man IS vulnerable to being Tricked by the Wicked man.

IF you are Preaching Against Angels Being incapable of Sinning, you are Making yourself A prime Target for Fallen Angels and Wicked men TO convince you they speak the Truth.

So WHO taught you, THAT Angels Can NOT Sin?
Because that IS in direct opposition of Gods Word.

 

[theefaith]

[QUOTE="face2face, post: 1161724, member:

lk 1;43 mother of my lord, does not say mother of anyone else!

btw mother of my lord is mother of God

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

A sinner would be an evil tree with evil fruit, but the fruit of Mary is salvation!

Mary brings in the good fruits of our redemption and salvation!

Only a queen can bear a king!

 

[face2face]

No. Nor was my study’s the the point.
The point was you made a statement excluding Angels from being capable of Sin and Scripture, includes Angels being capable of sinning....2 Pet 2:4 being an express example of Angels sinning.



Yes.
What does your Deflection have to do with you position That Angels can not Sin?

No deflection! Many people such as yourself take a plain reading of 2 Peter 2:4 and apply a literal interpretation without considering the consequences.

Firstly, you have a problem if your sinning divine angels are "locked up in darkness" to mean they are totally ineffective!!

It's clear the angels are human, not divine angels.

This is proven by the following:

"The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23). If God is righteous to sentence death upon humans what about angels?
If divine angels were sinners, then they would die (end of story!).
But Jesus said angels do not die. (Luke 20:36). The only plausible conclusion is the angels here are human not divine.

The Greek word "aggelos" translated "angel" means "messenger, agent" - you're assuming its a divine messenger?

You do know the word aggelos is used of humans, don't you?

Aggelos refers to human messengers or agents in a number of passages, here are a few: Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, Luke 7:27

The real question you should be asking is - Who 2 Peter 2:4 then is it referring to?

Clue 2 Peter 2:2-3

 

[face2face]

You have not answered post#484 &#484

#484 wasn't a question!

And further more you already said Mary was saved from the effects of original sin...why go over old ground? Mary was saved from sin, that's the point, therefore by its very definition she was a sinner otherwise God would have left her in her present state. You can't say Mary was “was preserved from all stain of original sin" if she didn't have original sin to begin with, How can you make sense of that? Now if you believe Mary didn't require salvation, well that's another level of crazy!

 

[Taken]

No deflection! Many people such as yourself take a plain reading of 2 Peter 2:4 and apply a literal interpretation without considering the consequences.

Firstly, you have a problem if your sinning divine angels are "locked up in darkness" to mean they are totally ineffective!!

It's clear the angels are human, not divine angels.

This is proven by the following:

"The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23). If God is righteous to sentence death upon humans what about angels?
If divine angels were sinners, then they would die (end of story!).
But Jesus said angels do not die. (Luke 20:36). The only plausible conclusion is the angels here are human not divine.

The Greek word "aggelos" translated "angel" means "messenger, agent" - you're assuming its a divine messenger?

You do know the word aggelos is used of humans, don't you?

Aggelos refers to human messengers or agents in a number of passages, here are a few: Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, Luke 7:27

The real question you should be asking is - Who 2 Peter 2:4 then is it referring to?

Clue 2 Peter 2:2-3

Celestials Are spirits.
Terrestrial man-kind of things Have a spirit.
One does not become the other.

Celestials were Created Holy And can Fall Away And Will not be restored back to Holy.

Terrestrial mankind is procreated from a unholy seed of man and Can (by, through, of) Gods Power, BE Made Holy.

Dead and Death...is a Physical Requirement Of Every Earthly Terrestrial Created BODY.

Dead and Death...is also applied to Any Celestial or Terrestrial Mankind THAT IS Separated From God...(whether or not the mans body is alive and even when the Celestial spirit is alive.)

 

[Taken]

@face2face
Post 522, question to you.
Who taught you Angels could not Sin?

Also, could you, in your own words give your perspective of WHAT Sin means to you?

Ty

 

[Truman]

What is Mariology? in my opinion...idolatry!

 

[Mungo]

#484 wasn't a question!

It required a reply as did the others I mentioned.
And incidentally when I said #484 & #484 I meant #484 & #485.

So, no answers to any of them.

And further more you already said Mary was saved from the effects of original sin...why go over old ground? Mary was saved from sin, that's the point, therefore by its very definition she was a sinner otherwise God would have left her in her present state. You can't say Mary was “was preserved from all stain of original sin" if she didn't have original sin to begin with, How can you make sense of that?

How many times to I have to go through this?
The original sin was Adam's sin.
We suffer from the effects of Adam's sin.
That doesn't mean that we sinned.
It was Adam who sinned.

Mary was saved from the effects of Adam's sin.
She did not commit the original sin.
Adam did.

Therefore Mary needed a saviour to save her from the effects of Adam's sin.

Now if you believe Mary didn't require salvation, well that's another level of crazy!

Mary needed a saviour to save her from the effects of Adam's sin as I have told you many times.

 

[Mungo]

What is Mariology? in my opinion...idolatry!

That's a very stupid opinion.
Any dictionary will show that you are wrong.

 

[face2face]

It required a reply as did the others I mentioned.
And incidentally when I said #484 & #484 I meant #484 & #485.

So, no answers to any of them.



How many times to I have to go through this?
The original sin was Adam's sin.
We suffer from the effects of Adam's sin.
That doesn't mean that we sinned.
It was Adam who sinned.

Mary was saved from the effects of Adam's sin.
She did not commit the original sin.
Adam did.

Therefore Mary needed a saviour to save her from the effects of Adam's sin.


Mary needed a saviour to save her from the effects of Adam's sin as I have told you many times.

And explain the affects of Adam's sin on humanity?

 

[face2face]

Celestials Are spirits.
Terrestrial man-kind of things Have a spirit.
One does not become the other.

Celestials were Created Holy And can Fall Away And Will not be restored back to Holy.

Agree.

Terrestrial mankind is procreated from a unholy seed of man and Can (by, through, of) Gods Power, BE Made Holy.

This is an odd way of saying man is of the earth earthy 1 Corinthians 15:47 - meaning he is dust and returns completely to dust. Ecclesiastes 9:5

Dead and Death...is a Physical Requirement Of Every Earthly Terrestrial Created BODY.

True.

Dead and Death...is also applied to Any Celestial or Terrestrial Mankind THAT IS Separated From God...(whether or not the mans body is alive and even when the Celestial spirit is alive.)

False. When I asked you to show me a verse to prove Angels can sin and die you jumped thousands of years and 61 books in the Bible to an obscure single verse and applied non-Biblical notions to a text you clearly do not understand. You even got the context wrong.

Here's your problem with 2 Peter 2:4

So what is the true context?

2 Peter 2:4 in Peter's account is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point.

So I repeat myself who are the human messengers/agents who sinned that God...

1. Did not spare them
2. Threw them into hell i.e (the grave)
3. And locked them up in chains (figurative for remaining in the grave) in utter darkness (again the grave is a dark place),
4 Kept for a future judgment

As you can see I am hoping you wont lean on your knowledge but actually take the time to consider these verses and appreciate how tenuous your position is.

 

[face2face]

@face2face
Post 522, question to you.
Who taught you Angels could not Sin?

When I was 21, I picked up the Bible having searched the world for answers to why I existed and what's the point of it all. I studied the Bible myself for 2 years before determining the original Gospel, as taught be the Apostles had been grubbied by human hands and most of the commonly held Christian beliefs were false. As you are finding with 2 Peter 2:4 if you persist with its consideration you will see, what you thought was there is in fact a fabrication and not the true substance you are seeking.

So, who taught me...God revealed in his Word.

Also, could you, in your own words give your perspective of WHAT Sin means to you?
Ty

I like 1 John 3:4 Sin is lawlessness - transgressing God's Law / Commands - all unrighteousness is sin. Moral defilement which leads to a defiled conscience. Sin ultimately is in the mind.

 

[Mungo]

And explain the affects of Adam's sin on humanity?

Still avoiding responding to posts #484, #485.
Also not answered post #486 which referred to an earlier request you did not answer - post #475, which itself referred to an earlier request you did not answer.
Posts #476 & #477 requested answers to earlier requests you did not answer.

You seem to think I must answer everything but you are exempt.

 

[Taken]

This is an odd way of saying man is of the earth earthy 1 Corinthians 15:47 - meaning he is dust and returns completely to dust. Ecclesiastes 9:5

Man —->Body was Created from dust, Returns To dust.
Man —-> Soul was Made Alive from Gods Breath, Did not come from dust, Does Not return to dust.

False. When I asked you to show me a verse to prove Angels can sin and die you jumped thousands of years and 61 books in the Bible to an obscure single verse and applied non-Biblical notions to a text you clearly do not understand. You even got the context wrong.

You made the point Sin was exclusive TO Mankind...Scripture reveals Angels also can And did Sin.
Period. Your point was false.

Here's your problem with 2 Peter 2:4

So what is the true context?

2 Peter 2:4 in Peter's account is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point.

You completely ignored acknowledging your claim Sin applied “only” to Human men was Not true.

So I repeat myself who are the human messengers/agents who sinned that God...

You further claimed Men “ARE” Angels.
Also False.

1. Did not spare them
2. Threw them into hell i.e (the grave)
3. And locked them up in chains (figurative for remaining in the grave) in utter darkness (again the grave is a dark place),
4 Kept for a future judgment

Angels who Sinned, were not Spared.
...Not Spared, IS being Cast Away From God.
...An Angel Being Cast Away From God, IS an Angel being Cast Out Of Gods Kingdom.
...An Angel Cast out of Gods High Heavenly Kingdom IS an Angel Being DOWN To Earth.
...Any Holy Angel Sent to Earth AS a Holy Messenger OF God, WHO while ON Earth, Committed sexual Sin with human woman Were Cast Down further From the Earth surface To Hell, in the center of Earth.

Again you ignored acknowledgement that
There exists Celestial Body’s called Angels Who Are Spirits And Terrestrial Body's Who Have a spirit and Are Separate KINDS of Gods Creations.

Either...Angel Kinds Of creations Can Serve God According To Gods Holy Word And Remain (a Holy Angel) or Become (a godly man Servant) OF God...
With can Be CAST Down, Separated From God...AND their “Estate” Created FOR them TO occupy.
Booted Down and the called Fallen...Separated From God.
...Separated From God IS called DEAD,
Whether or not the Thing (Angel-Kind or mankind of thing is alive).

Angels DO NOT physically Die!
They Are Spirits.
Bodys Of men Do Physically Die.
No Souls of men Have physically Died.

Some Angels have Remained Holy Servants OF God, And continue Having Access TO Gods Heavenly Kingdom.
Some Holy and Unholy Angels Continue having Access to the Earths Surfaces And men ON the Earth.
•Holy And unholy Angels Continue TO have influence Over Some men ON the Earth....who such men MAY or MAY Not Believe...Who such men MAY VACILLATE; believe, not believe, believe, not believe. Changing back and forth at Any time.
•ON the day of any VACILLATING mans Bodily Death ....IF that IS the moment that man IS believing...that man WILL BE Spared ...Will BE Saved...Will Be Risen After Christ’s Millennial reign.
IF the man IS NOT believing at the moment of his Bodily Physical Death, He Will NOT be Spared...Not Saved.
IF a man has Accepted Jesus’ Offering To Become MADE “Whole”, Body,soul,spirit...(By the Power Of God) And KEPT “Whole”...(By the Power OF God)....VACILLATING...back and forth, believing, not believing....IS MOOT!
Does Not Apply...Vacillating IS Overcome, No longer Possible, By Gods Power....”IN” the man Who truthfully, Freely Heartfully, Chose to Accept Jesus’ Offering.
That man “IS” Sealed by, Of and unto God Forever.

As you can see I am hoping you wont lean on your knowledge but actually take the time to consider these verses and appreciate how tenuous your position is.

What I see, is you make claims that are Scripturally False and Do Not Acknowledge or Correct when Scripture itself reveals they are false claims...then you carry on expecting your opinion to further be a trustworthy interpretation OF Scripture.

Fact IS...
Angels are not humans.
Angels Can remain Holy And Serve God...or Fall Away...And they NEVER become Restored TO or With God.

Men Can Become Servants Of God...and Remain Servants OR fall Away.
Men Can Serve then Fall Away, Then Return And Serve God or Remain Fallen Away...VACILLATE...AND THEIR Being Saved IS Dependent Upon IF they Are Believing....IN God IN Gods Word...On the Day they Die.

Many OT Chosen Hebrew men, Chosen Tribesmen Vacillated.
Many NT men Tribesmen (All calling themselves (Jews), Vacillated.
Many NT men Gentiles (Having Become Included, to Hear, learn, Choosing to believe God and His Word) Vacillated.
Many Jews AND Gentiles for the past 2,000+ years and to this day Continue to Vacillate.
Vacillators...ARE Repeatedly Warned ....
Men DO NOT know the moment of their Bodily Death....Vacillating is a slippery slope....Any mans body can die at any moment....and IF at the moment they die they are NOT IN Belief IN God and His Word....THEY shall NOT BE Saved! They Shall Not be Spared.

• ONLY humans ARE offered A WAY TO Become GUARANTEED A WAY to Be Spared AND Assured To Forever BE With the Lord God...(wholly...
body, soul, spirit...alive Forever AND Forever With God, IN His Presence, TO SEE Him (His currently UNSEEN Spirit) as He Is.
•And THAT “ONLY” assured guarantee, assured, Promise, New Covenant, Works, IS BY Freely Submitting TO Accepting Gods Offering BY the mans True Heartful Confession....And Gods Works OF Conversion.

Angels Who Go Against God, permanently Are Fallen Away And Separated From God...Period.
Human men, Can and Do Vacillate during their Physical Bodily Lifetime.
Human men, Who Vacillate...ARE in Danger Of “Not being Saved”.
Human men WHO have Become Converted ARE Never in Danger Of being Separated From God. THEY ARE already Sav-ED and Seal-ED Period.

You want to know WHO ARE messengers OF And Serve God ?

All Holy Angels “Revealing” Gods Truth;
and All godly men “Speaking” Gods Truth.

You want to know WHO SERVES Gods PURPOSE?

Holy Angels, Fallen Angels, godly men. Ungodly men!

Gods INTENT and PURPOSE is Division and Separation!

God Established DIVISIONAL opposites...
Heaven / Earth
Day / Night
Up / Down
With / Without
In / Out
Like / Unlike
Life / Death
Keeping / Casting Away
Salvation / Damnation

On and on...
Every living Spiritual thing and Physical thing Shall “Divided With And Without God SHALL BE Separated one From the Other.”

Angel kind of beings and Man kind of beings Freely Make their Choices WHICH side of the Divisional Line They Will Forever Be Separated.

Not a mystery.
BTW ...Hell is not a grave.
Graves are burial grounds for Dead Body's.
Hell is a holding Place for Living souls departed out of their dead body’s, already Divided From God, Waiting for their Judgement and Sentencing Of permanent Separation From God.
Hell is also a holding place For Some Angelic Spirits Divided From God, Waiting for their Judgement and Sentencing Of permanent Separation From God.

 

[face2face]

Man —->Body was Created from dust, Returns To dust.
Man —-> Soul was Made Alive from Gods Breath, Did not come from dust, Does Not return to dust.

Animals have the same breath - lol Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

You made the point Sin was exclusive TO Mankind...Scripture reveals Angels also can And did Sin.
Period. Your point was false.

Failure to deal with the verse (and its context) you presented shows weakness on your part.
Strong avoidance below!

You completely ignored acknowledging your claim Sin applied “only” to Human men was Not true.

Deal with the context of 2 Peter 2:4
This stands in your way of divine angels sinning!

So what is the true context?

2 Peter 2:4 in Peter's account is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point.

You failed to answer the question did you know the word for angels is also used of human messengers? Yes/No ???

 

[Taken]

Animals have the same breath - lol Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

Yes animals have souls, but Scripture was not written for them, nor do they sin, which You Saying Sin was only of humans was The point I addressed in your original post, and you sidestepped.

Failure to deal with the verse (and its context) you presented shows weakness on your part.
Strong avoidance below!

I have no requirement to deal with anything you post.

]Deal with the context of 2 Peter 2:4
This stands in your way of divine angels sinning!

So what is the true context?

2 Peter 2:4 in Peter's account is connected with 2 Peter 2:1. "But there were false prophets also among the people, [OT Israel!] even as there shall be false teachers among you . . ." 2 Peter 2:2 and 2 Peter 2:3 are a warning of false teachers to come in the future, but verse 4 reverts to verse 1 and illustrates the judgment of God upon false prophets in Israel. In 2 Peter 2:5-7, Peter, guided by the Holy Spirit, selects two additional illustrations from Old Testament history to prove his point.

You failed to answer the question did you know the word for angels is also used of human messengers? Yes/No ???

2 Peter 2:
4 For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Not a big mystery.
Angels sinned and were cast down to Hell.
Men who bodily die in Their Sin Shall their soul be Cast Down to Hell.

Not a mystery,Angels have Appeared in the Likeness Of men, and were called men.
Not much of a mystery men knowing they were taking with an Angel, whose Appearance was that of a man.
Not mysterious, Angels being called men and men being called Angels.
Understanding IS knowing men are Not Angels and Angels Are NOT men.
Already been over this in the difference between Celestial and Terrestrial beings!

 

[face2face]

@Taken
Slippery!
Fact 1. Animals and humans have the same breath.
Fact 2.They all die and go to the same place
Fact 3.They all return to dust.
Fact 4. This is the third time you have avoided the context of 2 Peter 2:4
Angels still can't sin!

 

[Taken]

Angels still can't sin!

Disagree.
Do you think Satan is a HOLY Angel?

 

[face2face]

Disagree.
Do you think Satan is a HOLY Angel?

Your disagreement means nothing when you have nothing to support your claim.

There are many Satan's!!! - The Apostle Peter was one! Matthew 16:23

Notice how Satan is defined by Jesus? "For you are NOT setting your mind on the things of God, BUT on the things of man"

Peter was being a Satan (i.e. Adversary) to Jesus whose mind was set on the cross.

It doesn't matter where you take me in the Scripture I know you cannot prove that Divine Angels can sin, fall or be embodiment's of evil. What it ultimately means, is you don't know the true nature of God, or His ministering spirit's.