WHAT IS MEANT IN HEBREWS SAYING THERE IS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS?

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Lambano

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You should know what Hebrews 6 teaches.
It's not difficult.
The persons spoken of in Hebrews 6 are particular.

It is a JEW becoming CHRISTIAN
and then
RETURNING TO JUDAISM.
It's a slap in the face to Jesus' sacrifice.
The specific case in Hebrews was a Jewish-Christian defecting back to Judaism. The big-picture question: Is the same principle expressed in Hebrews 6:4-6 applicable to the general case of a born-again Christian repudiating Christ and becoming an atheist, a Muslim, a Buddhist...?

Picirilli thought so. What do you say?
 

GodsGrace

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The specific case in Hebrews was a Jewish-Christian defecting back to Judaism. The big-picture question: Is the same principle expressed in Hebrews 6:4-6 applicable to the general case of a born-again Christian repudiating Christ and becoming an atheist, a Muslim, a Buddhist...?

Picirilli thought so. What do you say?
Are you pulling my chain?
Do you just like talking to me?

You're a smart guy Lambano.
If you don't know what I've said in my posts by now...

I GIVE UP.
:running:
 

GodsGrace

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The specific case in Hebrews was a Jewish-Christian defecting back to Judaism. The big-picture question: Is the same principle expressed in Hebrews 6:4-6 applicable to the general case of a born-again Christian repudiating Christ and becoming an atheist, a Muslim, a Buddhist...?

Picirilli thought so. What do you say?
For the sake of some new Christian that might be reading along:

GOD WILL ACCEPT A PERSON AT ANY TIME, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
I PROVIDED SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS THIS....
STATEMENTS BY JESUS HIMSELF.

My opinion is of no importance.
 
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Lambano

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Jesus said it:

John 6:35-37
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.



Luke 15:7

7“I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Did you pick up on the significance on the phrasing the author of Hebrews used in 6:4-6? If someone falls away after partaking of the spiritual gift, is impossible to renew him again to repentance.

It is not that he repents and comes back to Jesus and gets turned away. The problem is that he CANNOT repent. And if he cannot, he will not.
 
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Lambano

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Are you pulling my chain?
Do you just like talking to me?
Maybe I like banging my head against the wall.

bang-head-against-wall-498-x-498-gif-6akafixbhn2516dv.gif
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Here is what I understand EG....

The words BORN AGAIN, if I remember corrctly, maybe I don't,,,
appear one time in John 3:3,5

Do they ever appear again in the NT?

So why do they have to appear in Hebrews 6:4-6?
It does not. Nor did I say it did.

the term born again literally means to be made alive. This is all over the NT.
You have not replied to my question:

Is a person that is:

ENLIGHTENED
EXPERIENCED THE GOOD THINGS OF HEAVEN
SHARED IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
TASTED THE GOODNESS OF THE WORD OF GOD
TASTED THE POWER OF THE AGE TO COME


A saved person or an unsaved person?
I can not answer that

because they could be a saved person

they may not be a saved person.

the issue is what did they do with the knowledge and experience they had.

did they place their trusting faith in God.. or is their faith still in the law?
What high bar, in your estimation, must a person reach before they can be considered to be saved?
High bar?

Did they have the faith af abraham?
Did they have assurance, a conviction that was real, a confidence in all God said in all they experiences.

or again, was their confidence in the law

(the context of Hebrews is returning to the law)


Who is the works salvationist here?
Me
or
You?
You
Here is what I believe creates a born again person:

1. Believe in God.
2. Obey God.
Hence works..
Apparently your standards are MUCH HIGHER than mine.
I certainly hope that God's are not as high as yours or most of us hrere on this thread and forum are doomed.
My standard are Gods standard

do you TRUST ME

or do you TRUST THE LAW

or do you TRUST SELF? (works of obedience)
 

GodsGrace

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It does not. Nor did I say it did.
You said that Hebrews 6:4-6 does not use the words BORN AGAIN, thus insinuating that the person in Heb 6 were not born again/believers.

The text plainly states that they were.
The words BORN AGAIN are not necessary to denote that one is indeed born again.


the term born again literally means to be made alive. This is all over the NT.
But YOU want to see the words BORN AGAIN.
Happy to know that you no longer will be requiring this to know that one is ALIVE...
as were those in Heb 6.

I can not answer that

because they could be a saved person

they may not be a saved person.

the issue is what did they do with the knowledge and experience they had.

did they place their trusting faith in God.. or is their faith still in the law?

High bar?

Did they have the faith af abraham?
Did they have assurance, a conviction that was real, a confidence in all God said in all they experiences.

or again, was their confidence in the law

(the context of Hebrews is returning to the law)
The context of Hebrews is return to the Law
AFTER
one came to believe in Jesus.

If one believes in Jesus he is a saved/born again/alive person.

If he goes back to the Law,,
it means he FELL AWAY from the faith.

This is what Paul warns about in his writings....
He warns against FALLING AWAY...

what you claim is impossible.
 

Lambano

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For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,... (Hebrews 6:4)

That CLEARLY describes someone who was "born again". Someone who had the Holy Spirit. There can be no doubt about that.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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You said that Hebrews 6:4-6 does not use the words BORN AGAIN, thus insinuating that the person in Heb 6 were not born again/believers.

The text plainly states that they were.
The words BORN AGAIN are not necessary to denote that one is indeed born again.
No the text does not say they were sister..
But YOU want to see the words BORN AGAIN.
Happy to know that you no longer will be requiring this to know that one is ALIVE...
as were those in Heb 6.
I want to see that these people had real faith in what they heard and experienced. and not just a mere belief that did not lead to saving faith.


The context of Hebrews is return to the Law
AFTER
one came to believe in Jesus.
Yes.. And why would you return to the law after you TRUSTED in jesus, unless you never really trusted in jesus to begin with.

Alof of people try this christianity thing out. then decide its not really what they thought it was.. and return back to who they were.

it does not mean they were ever boen again, or saved, or made a child of God.

it just means they tried a new trick and decided it was not for them, because they never truly experienced salvation.

God does not fail people so much they walk away..

people walk away because they never truly experienced God or his Holy Spirit in a personal level. they just experienced him through others.
If one believes in Jesus he is a saved/born again/alive person.
No.. if this is all it takes. then many people are saved,,
If he goes back to the Law,,
it means he FELL AWAY from the faith.
Yes. He fell away from what could have saved him
This is what Paul warns about in his writings....
He warns against FALLING AWAY...
I would warn people I see who are going back on forth what they really want to trust also.. and tell them to hold on to that word. and claim it as their own. and walk away from that which can not save you
what you claim is impossible.
actually what you claim is not possible.. God gave us eternal life. Not conditional life.

if someone walked with the church, and no totally rejects Christ, I think we would both agree they are not saved.

the difference is you think they lost what God gave them paid for by his own blood.


I claim they were never saved to begin with. and like a dog they went back to their natural self
 

Lambano

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If I abandon God --- fall away from the faith ---- for 5 years...
and then want to come back....

WILL GOD ACCEPT ME?

That is the only question that requires a response.

For the sake of some new Christian that might be reading along:

GOD WILL ACCEPT A PERSON AT ANY TIME, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.
I PROVIDED SCRIPTURE THAT SUPPORTS THIS....
STATEMENTS BY JESUS HIMSELF.
I love the heart that cares to address this kind of question. And I agree with your position.
 
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Lambano

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I love the heart that asks this kind of question. And I agree with your position.
But Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about God hardening hearts ala Romans 9:18 and Romans 11:7-10. Some other scriptures that I also find disturbing, which is why I'm doggedly sticking with this conversation. To see if I can glean any new insights.

From a pastoral heart standpoint, I would say to someone who wants to return to Jesus after a 5-year absence, that by definition IS repentance, so Hebrews 6:6 does not apply. Go to Him.
 

mailmandan

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Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
  • by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
If you choose to no longer believe and turn away from Christ while being persecuted, then the believing you did by which you were saved, was done in vain.
To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

The rest of the chapter tells us what Paul means by “vain.” Some among them were saying there was no resurrection of the dead (vs. 12). Paul answers that if Christ is not risen, “your faith is also vain” (vs. 14), and “your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins” (vs. 17).

So the issue is not someone genuinely receiving eternal life and then losing it because they failed to hold on tightly enough. Paul is distinguishing saving faith in the gospel from a faith that falls short of truly believing the gospel. Scripture shows that continuing in the faith reveals what was genuine from the beginning. “If they had been of us, they would have continued with us” (1 John 2:19).

So, the “IF” is confirming the reality of their profession and is not teaching that believers maintain their salvation by holding fast in their own strength/self preservation. Genuine faith that results in salvation does not ultimately abandon Christ and His gospel.
 

Eternally Grateful

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You should know what Hebrews 6 teaches.
It's not difficult.
The persons spoken of in Hebrews 6 are particular.

It is a JEW becoming CHRISTIAN
and then
RETURNING TO JUDAISM.
It's a slap in the face to Jesus' sacrifice.

See posts 857, 860, 866

YOUR post 860 explains this perfectly from that book you read.


If I abandon God --- fall away from the faith ---- for 5 years...
and then want to come back....

WILL GOD ACCEPT ME?
According to Hebrews 6. no

It is what is impossible in context..

For it is impossible....

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

The rest of the chapter tells us what Paul means by “vain.” Some among them were saying there was no resurrection of the dead (vs. 12). Paul answers that if Christ is not risen, “your faith is also vain” (vs. 14), and “your faith is vain; you are yet in your sins” (vs. 17).

So the issue is not someone genuinely receiving eternal life and then losing it because they failed to hold on tightly enough. Paul is distinguishing saving faith in the gospel from a faith that falls short of truly believing the gospel. Scripture shows that continuing in the faith reveals what was genuine from the beginning. “If they had been of us, they would have continued with us” (1 John 2:19).

So, the “IF” is confirming the reality of their profession and is not teaching that believers maintain their salvation by holding fast in their own strength/self preservation. Genuine faith that results in salvation does not ultimately abandon Christ and His gospel.
I am confused why people can not understand this basic gospel fact.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Did you pick up on the significance on the phrasing the author of Hebrews used in 6:4-6? If someone falls away after partaking of the spiritual gift, is impossible to renew him again to repentance.

It is not that he repents and comes back to Jesus and gets turned away. The problem is that he CANNOT repent. And if he cannot, he will not.
yes

he can not because the reason he left was to go to what he truely trusted.

If your in a religious system. and then question that religious system because of this other religious system.

but after experiencing that other religious system, realise that you really trusted the religious system you were in before. and you return to that system

You will never repent aagain to return to the second one.. You have shown where you true faiht lies
 
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Eternally Grateful

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For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,... (Hebrews 6:4)

That CLEARLY describes someone who was "born again". Someone who had the Holy Spirit. There can be no doubt about that.
No it does not

if I am a non believer. and am in fellowship with believers. and attend their church, their functions in a means to see if that is somethign I want to be apart of. I have become a partaker of the Holy Spirit. I have been blessed by association with those who are filled with the spirit.

it is sometimes called blessing by association
 
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mailmandan

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In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened, which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away.

The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
 
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